After the trade...

[WCSox]

The argument for those who find the closer spot to be overrated, (myself being one of the proponents of this theory) says, that a typical major league pitcher should be able to get these three outs regardless, of when these three outs occur in a ballgame.

 

LaTroy Hawkins says hi.

 

Whether or not the Sox dish out the $8M or so that it'll take to keep Jenks around for another year, they need to address the pen in general. They're going to lose Dotel, and who knows if Linebrink will ever be able to pitch at a reasonably high level again. Regardless of what role they play, Kenny's going to need to bring in at least two more proven arms this winter. Kenny cut corners by re-stocking the pen with cheap, unaccomplished pitchers in 2007, and it was a complete disaster. I don't want to see that happen again.

Edited August 2, 2009 by WCSox

[SouthsideDon48]

Closer's usually come into a game with a three run lead. The argument for those who find the closer spot to be overrated, (myself being one of the proponents of this theory) says, that a typical major league pitcher should be able to get these three outs regardless, of when these three outs occur in a ballgame. Also, not sure I see how an ACE who can give you seven strong innings is equal in importance to a pitcher who needs only one inning to accomplish his job.

Yea, but what a lot of people are forgetting is that the closer role has a lot more pressure involved when you're pitching with 3 or less runs in the 9th inning than when you're pitching with a similar score difference in any other inning.

 

It takes a different mentality to be a closer that can handle closing out close games without losing your cool. It also requires mental toughness in so that closers need to be able to consistently forget their bad games and not let it affect their performance in games after blown saves.

[SouthsideDon48]

As for Thornton, I think he's a great pitcher, but I think he's more valuable to the Sox as a lefty set-up man than a closer. If we make Thornton the closer, the we'll basically need to find another lefty set-up man to fill Thornton's current role.

[sircaffey]

Almost all the great closers were great setup men once upon a time. If paying Jenks keeps us from filling another hole in the lineup, trade him. Keeping Jenks is more of a luxury in my mind, than a necessity. Thornton is our best reliever, and I think he would make a fantastic closer. And a cheap one at that.

[ThunderBolt]

It takes a different mentality to be a closer that can handle closing out close games without losing your cool. It also requires mental toughness in so that closers need to be able to consistently forget their bad games and not let it affect their performance in games after blown saves.

Isn’t this the case for every pitcher? You have little chance of succeeding at any position in baseball, if you can’t keep your composure and focus on the game.

 

[Princess Dye]

Isn't this the case for every pitcher? You have little chance of succeeding at any position in baseball, if you can't keep your composure and focus on the game.

 

I kind of side with this. People always talk about how calm a closer has to be. But if he's talented he's gonna get people out. If he isnt he wont

 

 

Keith Foulke had some very successful years closing, and he physically looked like he was about to die each time on the mound.

[joeynach]

As for Thornton, I think he's a great pitcher, but I think he's more valuable to the Sox as a lefty set-up man than a closer. If we make Thornton the closer, the we'll basically need to find another lefty set-up man to fill Thornton's current role.

 

I agree I think thornton's value is in his current role. If the sox dont want Bobby around I would try and get Matt Capps or Rafael Soriano.

[WCSox]

I kind of side with this. People always talk about how calm a closer has to be. But if he's talented he's gonna get people out. If he isnt he wont

 

That's true. And no reliever in this organization has Jenks' talent. So if you want to replace him, you'd better have a talented replacement ready to go. Bringing up Joe Schmoe out of AA ain't gonna cut it.

 

[Pumpkin Escobar]

I don't rely on Bobby. I'd deal for something that can contribute or restock some of the farm.

 

My buddy introduced an idea of dealing him straight up for Crawford (a name many of us seem to enjoy). I figured it would cost us prospects but Jenks maybe a good swap. They apparently need to be cutting payroll so I am not sure this will be appealing enough to them - which is really the only thing which would hold it up to me. Depends on how much theyd value the 4-5 mill decrease. If it's that much.

 

Otherwise - I would move him for anything of value (be it elite prospects, prospects + role players, or a talented mlb player to fill our holes we have).

 

It's not as tough to find closers with a 4era as Jenks has. Every year there are new closers emerging all over the place. It is an important position but it is alsoand overrated position. We can find someone who is much cheaper, not declining in ability, and with lower expectations who can perform to the level Jenks is and will be performing.

[caulfield12]

Trading Jenks for Crawford makes very little sense, to the Rays.

 

How could they afford to pay a closer $8 million (plus) for only two seasons under their control when they can't afford Crawford, one of the most popular and likeable players in franchise history, for just one season? Yeah, I get that they might have more depth in the outfield than at the back of the bullpen, and that just sticking Grant Balfour into that role won't necessarily work out wonderfully, but I would be hugely concerned in the Rays' FO about acquiring someone with his medical history and with a seemingly declining fastball...despite his wonderful assortment of pitches and devastating offspeed stuff when he's on and has almost complete command.

 

You give up Crawford for Joe Nathan (one or two years), but not Bobby Jenks. There are too many other comparable options that are less risky, someone like Jose Valverde comes to mind.

 

 

[Pumpkin Escobar]

Trading Jenks for Crawford makes very little sense, to the Rays.

 

How could they afford to pay a closer $8 million (plus) for only two seasons under their control when they can't afford Crawford, one of the most popular and likeable players in franchise history, for just one season? Yeah, I get that they might have more depth in the outfield than at the back of the bullpen, and that just sticking Grant Balfour into that role won't necessarily work out wonderfully, but I would be hugely concerned in the Rays' FO about acquiring someone with his medical history and with a seemingly declining fastball...despite his wonderful assortment of pitches and devastating offspeed stuff when he's on and has almost complete command.

 

You give up Crawford for Joe Nathan (one or two years), but not Bobby Jenks. There are too many other comparable options that are less risky, someone like Jose Valverde comes to mind.

 

Thats just it.With their financial situation I am not sure theyd be interested. That type of swap I agreed with him that I wouldnt mind though.

[VAfan]

For all the guys here who want to deal Bobby, you have to step back and look at the overall condition of the pen first. We wouldn't just be trading Bobby -- and I assume no one would give us a younger and cheaper but just as good Bobby clone in return -- we are also looking at the loss of Dotel, and the continued weakness of Scott Linebrink. Plus, we've just traded the guy -- Aaron Poreda -- in our system who was best positioned to take a key bullpen role next year if we'd wanted him there instead of as a starter. So, look at the big picture.

 

NOW

Jenks - closer

Thornton - lefty set up

Dotel - 7th inning guy

Linebrink - set up guy who's not so effective

Pena -- 6th inning guy

Carrasco -- long relief

Williams -- LOOGY

Nunez -- just a body

 

NEXT YEAR WITHOUT BOBBY

Thornton -- closer?

Who set's up?

Linebrink?

Who's the 7th inning guy?

Pena?

Who's the lefty set up guy? Not Williams

Carrasco -- long relief

 

To me, without Bobby, it looks like it could be a bullpen implosion.

 

NEXT YEAR WITH BOBBY

Jenks - closer

Thornton - set up man

Pena or Linebrink -- 7th inning guy

Williams (or another lefty) - LOOGY

Carrasco -- long relief

 

In this scenario, the Sox don't have to fill the shoes of any critical bullpen pitcher. They can phase in someone who will be no higher than 3rd in the pecking order. To me, that's worth whatever Bobby's going to get in arbitration. Sure, Jenks can eventually be replaced. But I want a pen with at least 4 guys I can count on to close the game from the 7th through the 9th in a 1 run game against Boston, NYY, or the Angels.

 

Remember also that Peavy is not a pitcher that goes that deep into games. The Sox will need a deep bullpen.

[chw42]

We should trade Bobby. Give Thornton a shot at closing.

[Pumpkin Escobar]

For all the guys here who want to deal Bobby, you have to step back and look at the overall condition of the pen first. We wouldn't just be trading Bobby -- and I assume no one would give us a younger and cheaper but just as good Bobby clone in return -- we are also looking at the loss of Dotel, and the continued weakness of Scott Linebrink. Plus, we've just traded the guy -- Aaron Poreda -- in our system who was best positioned to take a key bullpen role next year if we'd wanted him there instead of as a starter. So, look at the big picture.

 

NOW

Jenks - closer

Thornton - lefty set up

Dotel - 7th inning guy

Linebrink - set up guy who's not so effective

Pena -- 6th inning guy

Carrasco -- long relief

Williams -- LOOGY

Nunez -- just a body

 

NEXT YEAR WITHOUT BOBBY

Thornton -- closer?

Who set's up?

Linebrink?

Who's the 7th inning guy?

Pena?

Who's the lefty set up guy? Not Williams

Carrasco -- long relief

 

To me, without Bobby, it looks like it could be a bullpen implosion.

 

NEXT YEAR WITH BOBBY

Jenks - closer

Thornton - set up man

Pena or Linebrink -- 7th inning guy

Williams (or another lefty) - LOOGY

Carrasco -- long relief

 

In this scenario, the Sox don't have to fill the shoes of any critical bullpen pitcher. They can phase in someone who will be no higher than 3rd in the pecking order. To me, that's worth whatever Bobby's going to get in arbitration. Sure, Jenks can eventually be replaced. But I want a pen with at least 4 guys I can count on to close the game from the 7th through the 9th in a 1 run game against Boston, NYY, or the Angels.

 

Remember also that Peavy is not a pitcher that goes that deep into games. The Sox will need a deep bullpen.

 

 

It's tough to keep a guy around who will be making doulbe our already "overpaid" bullpen arms without being much more effective than them.

 

It doesnt become a matter of what's left - it's how can we round out/replace/rebuild this bullpen. Unfortunately we need to make a lot of changes and Jenks is one of them. He just isnt worth what he is about to be paid and frankly he needs to be dealt.

 

I'd love to see him show up and pop 100 and dominate again but realistically - it's not goign to happen. I think he can be dealt for prospects or mlb talent.

 

I think the Sox can sign 1-2 bullpen arms. We've proven we have no issue with signing them and paying them big contracts (or longer than expected). Guys I'd target - Soriano, Mike Gonzalez, Valverde, Rodney etc...Valverde or Soriano can easily match or exceed what Jenks is giving us at a cheaper cost. Valverde will not see the 8 million he got this season and most likely Jenks will see or exceed that figure goignthrough arbitration with his track record. Soriano will be in the same position. As will Gonzalez.

 

We've got 60 mil committed before our arbitration guys - who are all due nice raises. If we dump Jenks and stay around 70-75 mil - that leaves us plenty of room to spend money on a couple of bullpen guys (8mil) with what we saved on Jenks. Bring back Dye (8 mil) and still go out and improve our club with the other 10-15 mill remaining to keep us well under our 09' payroll.

 

I'm starting to view it similar to the Carlos Lee situation. Use that 8+million on other things.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Pumpkin Escobar

[witesoxfan]

As has been mentioned, making Thornton the closer might hurt the bullpen, and righties that can hit a fastball are going to hit him. He has the stuff to be an average closer, but that's about it. If you do that, you then need to find a lefty who can replace him in the bullpen while also having another lefty behind that one. That is the one and only time I believe that your best reliever does not necessarily have to be your closer. If the Sox can somehow find a very dependable left handed reliever within the next 7 months, then you can look to Thornton to close.

 

Heath Bell is an interesting name even if there are concerns about him pitching outside of Petco and the value it may take to get him. Tony Pena is another legitimate option within the organization, and even if his ERA has been bad with the Sox, he's had 7 of 9 scoreless appearances, and his peripherals have been pretty good overall.

 

All that said, I think the organization will stick with Jenks for one more season unless something comes up that really doesn't allow it with Pena moving into the Dotel role, Linebrink sticking around and hoping he can become solid again, and Nunez/Link and Torres coming up to pitch in the bullpen too.

 

[GreatScott82]

Lets see how Link and Nunez do with the big league club before we start talking about trading Bobby. I think the mindset that KW and Hahn have is if they are going to trade Jenks, they are doing so to bring over an every day outfielder. Whose out there?

[GreatScott82]

We've got 60 mil committed before our arbitration guys - who are all due nice raises.

I wonder how much CQ will be getting via arbitration? Same with Danks? .

[WCSox]

NEXT YEAR WITHOUT BOBBY

Thornton -- closer?

Who set's up?

Linebrink?

Who's the 7th inning guy?

Pena?

Who's the lefty set up guy? Not Williams

Carrasco -- long relief

 

To me, without Bobby, it looks like it could be a bullpen implosion.

 

NEXT YEAR WITH BOBBY

Jenks - closer

Thornton - set up man

Pena or Linebrink -- 7th inning guy

Williams (or another lefty) - LOOGY

Carrasco -- long relief

 

Frankly, neither of those scenarios are that appealing. Regardless of what they do with Jenks next year, they're going to have to spend on the bullpen. And I mean actual Major League talent, not crap like Andrew Sisco or Dewon Day. I was glad to hear Hahn state that they're looking at middle relief.

 

Before tossing Bobby out the door, I'd wait and see how he pitches down the stretch, without kidney stone pain. If his command comes back, I'd probably be willing to take a flyer on him for one more year (probably $7.5-8 million). That's not a tremendous investment, and the Sox have A. J. and potentially Paulie coming off the books next winter as well. And Bobby would still have trade value, being under team control for 2011 as well. If Bobby continues to throw erratically later this year, I'd lean towards dealing him this winter - BUT only if I could find an experienced, viable option to fill the void (Thornton is not a closer).

 

[Pumpkin Escobar]

I wonder how much CQ will be getting via arbitration? Same with Danks? .

 

I think they'll both be in that 4-6 mil range. Maybe 3-6 mil.

 

I can't think of many pitchers similar to Danks recently who actually hit arbitration. Maybe you guys can throw some other names out there. Kazmir is what came to my mind initially and thats kind of where I stopped. He got 3.8 million or something in 2008. So thats where I drew the 4-6 mil figure from.

 

Quentin I am unsure about if he'll command even that much just because of his lackluster season thus far. I'd assume he would be in the same range. Again - I am lacking a comparison. I think with both guys it's tough to draw one because usually they get their contracts bought out X years in advance or they avoid arbitration year to year.

 

I was putting them at about 4.5 each but I have a feeling we will see KW try to give them another shot at a nice extension. Seeing a guy like Floyd take it, seeing what a guy like Longoria is getting, Sizemore even - and I would hope these two have interest in staying here and some common sense to understand their value in comparison to the league and with the present economy.

 

A guy like Quentin should take anything he can get since he has yet to figure out how to remain healthy.

[Pumpkin Escobar]

Anyone see us floating a Longoria like offer to Beckham? 6 years 13-15 mil?

[caulfield12]

Anyone see us floating a Longoria like offer to Beckham? 6 years 13-15 mil?

 

 

Not quite yet.

 

Give it one more season....not that he'll pull a Chris Young, but there's no rush.

 

And the economy could go either way. Better to wait until everything is clarified in terms of the financial direction of the game of baseball, the White Sox and just the US economic situation in general.

[WCSox]

And the economy could go either way. Better to wait until everything is clarified in terms of the financial direction of the game of baseball, the White Sox and just the US economic situation in general.

 

The economy isn't going to sort itself out any time soon. With the rate that the Fed is devaluing our currency and with China getting nervous about that and our ridiculously-low interest, interest rates will shoot up and combine with inflation to trigger another recession in another year or so.

 

Agreed in general about waiting a year with Beckham, though. I'd start negotiations on a long-term deal next winter.