Princess Dye Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) well since 07 that is Obviously we all like the OBP, but with his specific spot in the lineup, you need a little more handiness with the bat than he's providing. How much has it hurt us? Also who here would advocate lowering him in the lineup? Edited August 5, 2009 by Princess Dye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Who cares? We don't expect him to hit for average and if you are, then you're doing it wrong. Not to mention his average was .284 in July and overall it's 8 points since last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 He has like a .410 OBP. I'm not worried about his average at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Aug 4, 2009 -> 09:08 PM) Who cares? We don't expect him to hit for average and if you are, then you're doing it wrong. Not to mention his average was .284 in July and overall it's 8 points since last year. But note in the post, I'm worried not about avg itself...but about what a declining average implies Less able to wave that wand the way he used to. If you're hitting in the 3-4-5, youve still got your situations that you have to make contact in. Edited August 5, 2009 by Princess Dye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Aug 5, 2009 -> 02:10 AM) But note in the post, I'm worried not about avg itself...but about what a declining average implies Less able to wave that wand the way he used to. If you're hitting in the 3-4-5, youve still got your situations that you have to make contact in. ... But his average is up this year from last, not on a decline. He's a 4 hitter because he's a lefty complement with lots of power and gets on base at a high rate. So who do you want there? Quentin? Another righty who has hit about .200 since coming back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 He hits where he hits because he bats left-handed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 To illustrate my overall point further, K rate is on the rise for him this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Aug 4, 2009 -> 09:13 PM) ... But his average is up this year from last, not on a decline. Yea, thats why i said since 07 in my original post. I guess I just want that lineup with a 1 through 5 that can be multifaceted with the bat. I'm not saying, 'hey it's crazy having a power hitting lefty in the 3-4-5'. Just wishing that we would aim higher, perhaps in our offseasons, to get a different lefty power hitter. If Alexei keeps hitting the way he's going, I'm going to start wanting Pods/Alexei/Becks/Dye/Konerko. Even though it flies in the face of conventions, it reminds me of those great teams that keep punishing you and bringing your pitch count up in long five-batter sequences. There's also the option of moving AJ to 5, but with our park it's barely an option Edited August 5, 2009 by Princess Dye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Aug 4, 2009 -> 07:15 PM) To illustrate my overall point further, K rate is on the rise for him this year. Here is Jim Thome's K/plate appearances since 1999, excluding 2005 when he was hurt. 1999 0.272 2000 0.250 2001 0.287 2002 0.227 2003 0.261 2004 0.233 2006 0.241 2007 0.250 2008 0.244 2009 0.268 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Aug 5, 2009 -> 03:18 AM) it reminds me of those great teams that keep punishing you and bringing your pitch count up in long five-batter sequences. Yet you want Thome out of there. I'm sorry, but I am completely lost at this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Aug 4, 2009 -> 09:21 PM) Yet you want Thome out of there. I'm sorry, but I am completely lost at this thread. I definitely tripped over myself on that line. My point should have been the following, said more simply: I dont want my cleanup hitter's best attribute to be drawing walks. SLG is on the decline as well, each year he's been here, again with the biggest drop off being post 07. Edited August 5, 2009 by Princess Dye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SockMe Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 whenever Jim comes to bat I expect a HR or Strike out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Aug 4, 2009 -> 07:26 PM) SLG is on the decline as well, each year he's been here, again with the biggest drop off being post 07. Saying that his slugging is declining from the ridiculous HOF level he was at beforehand isn't an argument for moving him in the lineup. You need to tell me how to replace the nearly .500 slugging from the LH side in the middle of the lineup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 4, 2009 -> 09:31 PM) Saying that his slugging is declining from the ridiculous HOF level he was at beforehand isn't an argument for moving him in the lineup. You need to tell me how to replace the nearly .500 slugging from the LH side in the middle of the lineup. Dwayne Wise. Oh my bad, I thought you meant .500 OPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 4, 2009 -> 09:31 PM) Saying that his slugging is declining from the ridiculous HOF level he was at beforehand isn't an argument for moving him in the lineup. You need to tell me how to replace the nearly .500 slugging from the LH side in the middle of the lineup. Were we to move Beckham into the 3 slot, I think that middle of the lineup gets a guy who can hit lefties and righties very well. Currently Beckham is hitting for righties for an average higher than Thome is. The walks and SLG are not there yet, but few amongst us doubt we're too far away from that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 4, 2009 -> 09:31 PM) Saying that his slugging is declining from the ridiculous HOF level he was at beforehand isn't an argument for moving him in the lineup. You need to tell me how to replace the nearly .500 slugging from the LH side in the middle of the lineup. but .494 slugging at the cleanup spot would not cut it on those teams I think are a cut above, like Boston w/ Youklis, LAA w/ Guerrero (normal Vlad that is) or Tampa etc I want to be like those teams. Edited August 5, 2009 by Princess Dye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 And obviously I'd report on what just happened but I dont wanna be that guy I want a bomb in the 11th, all things I've said notwithstanding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Aug 4, 2009 -> 10:38 PM) but .494 slugging at the cleanup spot would not cut it on those teams I think are a cut above, like Boston w/ Youklis, LAA w/ Guerrero (normal Vlad that is) or Tampa etc I want to be like those teams. ??? A-Rod is slugging .515 for the Yankees, is that not good enough or something? Where do you suggest getting a Hall of Famer from? Edited August 5, 2009 by lostfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Aug 4, 2009 -> 07:38 PM) but .494 slugging at the cleanup spot would not cut it on those teams I think are a cut above, like Boston w/ Youklis, LAA w/ Guerrero (normal Vlad that is) or Tampa etc I want to be like those teams. Slugging percentage out of the cleanup spot this year for every team in MLB: 1 Minnesota 0.607 2 Milwaukee 0.586 3 Chicago Cubs 0.568 4 Washington 0.567 5 Texas 0.562 6 Detroit 0.531 7 Boston 0.524 8 Chicago Sox 0.517 9 San Diego 0.514 10 Philadelphia 0.512 11 Houston 0.495 12 Atlanta 0.493 13 St. Louis 0.489 14 Tampa Bay 0.488 15 NY Yankees 0.486 16 LA Angels 0.483 17 Arizona 0.478 18 NY Mets 0.463 19 Colorado 0.458 20 Cincinnati 0.444 21 Cleveland 0.442 22 Toronto 0.44 23 Oakland 0.438 24 Pittsburgh 0.437 25 San Francisco 0.437 26 Florida 0.431 27 Baltimore 0.394 28 Seattle 0.389 29 LA Dodgers 0.381 30 Kansas City 0.293 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 4, 2009 -> 09:43 PM) Slugging percentage out of the cleanup spot this year for every team in MLB: 1 Minnesota 0.607 2 Milwaukee 0.586 3 Chicago Cubs 0.568 4 Washington 0.567 5 Texas 0.562 6 Detroit 0.531 7 Boston 0.524 8 Chicago Sox 0.517 9 San Diego 0.514 10 Philadelphia 0.512 11 Houston 0.495 12 Atlanta 0.493 13 St. Louis 0.489 14 Tampa Bay 0.488 15 NY Yankees 0.486 16 LA Angels 0.483 17 Arizona 0.478 18 NY Mets 0.463 19 Colorado 0.458 20 Cincinnati 0.444 21 Cleveland 0.442 22 Toronto 0.44 23 Oakland 0.438 24 Pittsburgh 0.437 25 San Francisco 0.437 26 Florida 0.431 27 Baltimore 0.394 28 Seattle 0.389 29 LA Dodgers 0.381 30 Kansas City 0.293 Which is why some of those teams have moved in some of the above guys I mentioned into that slot. Such as Youk, Zobrist. They see the importance of the spot and make the necessary adjustments. I hope we do the same, which is my entire point. We'll see if the K-rate and SLG we get out of the cleanup spot is enough for this year. Would love to be proven wrong. Edited August 5, 2009 by Princess Dye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Aug 4, 2009 -> 09:26 PM) I definitely tripped over myself on that line. My point should have been the following, said more simply: I dont want my cleanup hitter's best attribute to be drawing walks. SLG is on the decline as well, each year he's been here, again with the biggest drop off being post 07. Jim Thome's greatest attribute is the fact that he's a power hitting left handed bat hitting cleanup in the middle of several right handers that forces the other managers hand late in games and keeps the offensive versatility throughout the beginning and middle of a game. QUOTE (SockMe @ Aug 4, 2009 -> 09:28 PM) whenever Jim comes to bat I expect a HR or Strike out or a walk, or extra base hit in general, or ground ball to the right side, but I actually do generally agree that Thome is a pretty predictable hitter. That's perfectly fine by me when he puts up the numbers he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) An additional part of my fears is that a .250 hitter, his obp notwithstanding, likely has trouble hitting great pitching. In the playoffs, you face great pitching nonstop, and your 4-hitter is getting a lot of at-bats. Not saying he's only out there hitting bad pitching, but for a nice tiny sample size...in last year's playoffs: .176 OBP A-Rod is slugging .515 for the Yankees, is that not good enough or something? Where do you suggest getting a Hall of Famer from?If we had the OBPs that lineup has up and down, I would gladly make an exception to my vision here. But with our payroll limitations we depend on a cleanup hitter for a lot, year in year out. But besides that ARod's just better Edited August 5, 2009 by Princess Dye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Mark Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Yeah I'm ready to see Thome gone too PD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Aug 4, 2009 -> 08:15 PM) An additional part of my fears is that a .250 hitter, his obp notwithstanding, likely has trouble hitting great pitching. Here's the guys Thome has put up the best OPS against this year, minimum 3 PA's. Randy Wells 5 Jeremy Bonderman 3.5 Jeremy Guthrie 1.917 Edwin Jackson 1.914 Jeremy Sowers 1.694 Kevin Millwood 1.667 Jered Weaver 1.667 Jason Berken 1.666 Jesse Carlson 1.666 C.C. Sabathia 1.666 Scott Baker 1.5 Eddie Bonine 1.4 David Huff 1.167 Jim Johnson 1.167 Francisco Liriano 1.167 Brad Bergesen 1.1 Roy Halladay 1.1 Nick Blackburn 1.089 Justin Verlander 1.042 Bruce Chen 1 Meanwhile, here's the loewr end A.J. Burnett 0 R.A. Dickey 0 Adam Eaton 0 Matt Harrison 0 Jeff Karstens 0 Hiroki Kuroda 0 Andy Pettitte 0 Rick Porcello 0 Joakim Soria 0 It seems like there's very little correlation between the guy being a "Good pitcher" and Jims OPS against him this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Jesus Princess, Balta is smoking you. Good thing you don't hang out as a right winger in the Filibuster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.