southsider2k5 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I knew the voice of reason would appear. This has been a fascinating yet confusing thread. Dealing Colon now would be a scatterbrained idea. Why would we want to diminsh our chances of making the playoffs so we can help put the Giants over the top? I understand the desire to "have our cake and eat it too" - Deal Colon for pitching that could (emphasized)help us get to the playoffs and that we could have for next season. But I implore everyone to stop thinking about next season. This franchise has not won a World Series much less a playoff series in 86 years - when in a pennant chase for any present title we of all people should not be thinking about next season. The time is now. With Buehrle, Colon, Garland, and Loaiza - you have the core responsible for the most quality starts in baseball. Why would anyone seek to break that up when you've got the most difficult stretch of the season ahead in August, and priming for the final push in September against division rivals. This staff is keeping the Sox in games. This team has won six straight and is primed for more with Tampa due in for three games over the weekend followed by a big series in Kansas City. The Sox are coming together. Last nights game was a flashback to 1983. Toronto has the best offense in the league yet they could not blow the game open. Botch didn't help the Sox cause. But in the end the team rallyed - and "won ugly". But pitching keeping the Sox in games was why the '83 team won so many in the second half. If we make the playoffs we will need Colon. If you are serious at making a run - fill the voids you have. Don't create new ones. We need a #5 starter, we need some bullpen help. Yes, CF could be better, we could use a better defensive SS, I would love to have Giles, etc., etc - but not at the expense of trading Colon now. The Sox would lose all the rest of their remaining fans if they traded Colon off now. Everyone would scream white flag, and that we were quitting while still in the race. Being 5 games out of a team that is way overachieving, and that people are just waiting to see when they fall apart, they would be crucified in the national media as well. I think it would depend who the trade yields. If we got someone who could step into the rotation right now and contribute, I don't think it would be that bad. After all, Colon hasn't exactly set the world on fire this season... IF we got 3 of the pitchers that we have talked about I would be in favor of the deal, BUT, it would be a PR nightmare if it happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I knew the voice of reason would appear. This has been a fascinating yet confusing thread. Dealing Colon now would be a scatterbrained idea. Why would we want to diminsh our chances of making the playoffs so we can help put the Giants over the top? I understand the desire to "have our cake and eat it too" - Deal Colon for pitching that could (emphasized)help us get to the playoffs and that we could have for next season. But I implore everyone to stop thinking about next season. This franchise has not won a World Series much less a playoff series in 86 years - when in a pennant chase for any present title we of all people should not be thinking about next season. The time is now. With Buehrle, Colon, Garland, and Loaiza - you have the core responsible for the most quality starts in baseball. Why would anyone seek to break that up when you've got the most difficult stretch of the season ahead in August, and priming for the final push in September against division rivals. This staff is keeping the Sox in games. This team has won six straight and is primed for more with Tampa due in for three games over the weekend followed by a big series in Kansas City. The Sox are coming together. Last nights game was a flashback to 1983. Toronto has the best offense in the league yet they could not blow the game open. Botch didn't help the Sox cause. But in the end the team rallyed - and "won ugly". But pitching keeping the Sox in games was why the '83 team won so many in the second half. If we make the playoffs we will need Colon. If you are serious at making a run - fill the voids you have. Don't create new ones. We need a #5 starter, we need some bullpen help. Yes, CF could be better, we could use a better defensive SS, I would love to have Giles, etc., etc - but not at the expense of trading Colon now. The Sox would lose all the rest of their remaining fans if they traded Colon off now. Everyone would scream white flag, and that we were quitting while still in the race. Being 5 games out of a team that is way overachieving, and that people are just waiting to see when they fall apart, they would be crucified in the national media as well. I think it would depend who the trade yields. If we got someone who could step into the rotation right now and contribute, I don't think it would be that bad. After all, Colon hasn't exactly set the world on fire this season... IF we got 3 of the pitchers that we have talked about I would be in favor of the deal, BUT, it would be a PR nightmare if it happened. The real fans like us would understand it though. After all, do you want Bart to bolt after the season for basically nothing when we can gain some major league ready stud arms right now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarkdog Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I knew the voice of reason would appear. This has been a fascinating yet confusing thread. Dealing Colon now would be a scatterbrained idea. Why would we want to diminsh our chances of making the playoffs so we can help put the Giants over the top? I understand the desire to "have our cake and eat it too" - Deal Colon for pitching that could (emphasized)help us get to the playoffs and that we could have for next season. But I implore everyone to stop thinking about next season. This franchise has not won a World Series much less a playoff series in 86 years - when in a pennant chase for any present title we of all people should not be thinking about next season. The time is now. With Buehrle, Colon, Garland, and Loaiza - you have the core responsible for the most quality starts in baseball. Why would anyone seek to break that up when you've got the most difficult stretch of the season ahead in August, and priming for the final push in September against division rivals. This staff is keeping the Sox in games. This team has won six straight and is primed for more with Tampa due in for three games over the weekend followed by a big series in Kansas City. The Sox are coming together. Last nights game was a flashback to 1983. Toronto has the best offense in the league yet they could not blow the game open. Botch didn't help the Sox cause. But in the end the team rallyed - and "won ugly". But pitching keeping the Sox in games was why the '83 team won so many in the second half. If we make the playoffs we will need Colon. If you are serious at making a run - fill the voids you have. Don't create new ones. We need a #5 starter, we need some bullpen help. Yes, CF could be better, we could use a better defensive SS, I would love to have Giles, etc., etc - but not at the expense of trading Colon now. The Sox would lose all the rest of their remaining fans if they traded Colon off now. Everyone would scream white flag, and that we were quitting while still in the race. Being 5 games out of a team that is way overachieving, and that people are just waiting to see when they fall apart, they would be crucified in the national media as well. I think it would depend who the trade yields. If we got someone who could step into the rotation right now and contribute, I don't think it would be that bad. After all, Colon hasn't exactly set the world on fire this season... IF we got 3 of the pitchers that we have talked about I would be in favor of the deal, BUT, it would be a PR nightmare if it happened. The real fans like us would understand it though. After all, do you want Bart to bolt after the season for basically nothing when we can gain some major league ready stud arms right now? I hope I can still be considered "a real fan" even though I disagree completely with this. KW may be an idiot but I have to believe that he didn't get Colon so that he could deal him in the middle of pennant chase. If we don't think we can win this division and play deep into October then deal him. Real fan or not - and regardless of the players you get - it is a white flag trade. This franchise needs to worry not only about the "real fan" but the "casual fan". A casual fan will not understand this - because in a city that has not won a World Series in over 86 years - dealing the marquee player you got to try and win that elusive World Series will appear as surrender. The casual fan is what allows for bigger payrolls. Deal Colon and the days of big walk-ups to the ticket windows are a memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I knew the voice of reason would appear. This has been a fascinating yet confusing thread. Dealing Colon now would be a scatterbrained idea. Why would we want to diminsh our chances of making the playoffs so we can help put the Giants over the top? I understand the desire to "have our cake and eat it too" - Deal Colon for pitching that could (emphasized)help us get to the playoffs and that we could have for next season. But I implore everyone to stop thinking about next season. This franchise has not won a World Series much less a playoff series in 86 years - when in a pennant chase for any present title we of all people should not be thinking about next season. The time is now. With Buehrle, Colon, Garland, and Loaiza - you have the core responsible for the most quality starts in baseball. Why would anyone seek to break that up when you've got the most difficult stretch of the season ahead in August, and priming for the final push in September against division rivals. This staff is keeping the Sox in games. This team has won six straight and is primed for more with Tampa due in for three games over the weekend followed by a big series in Kansas City. The Sox are coming together. Last nights game was a flashback to 1983. Toronto has the best offense in the league yet they could not blow the game open. Botch didn't help the Sox cause. But in the end the team rallyed - and "won ugly". But pitching keeping the Sox in games was why the '83 team won so many in the second half. If we make the playoffs we will need Colon. If you are serious at making a run - fill the voids you have. Don't create new ones. We need a #5 starter, we need some bullpen help. Yes, CF could be better, we could use a better defensive SS, I would love to have Giles, etc., etc - but not at the expense of trading Colon now. The Sox would lose all the rest of their remaining fans if they traded Colon off now. Everyone would scream white flag, and that we were quitting while still in the race. Being 5 games out of a team that is way overachieving, and that people are just waiting to see when they fall apart, they would be crucified in the national media as well. I think it would depend who the trade yields. If we got someone who could step into the rotation right now and contribute, I don't think it would be that bad. After all, Colon hasn't exactly set the world on fire this season... IF we got 3 of the pitchers that we have talked about I would be in favor of the deal, BUT, it would be a PR nightmare if it happened. The real fans like us would understand it though. After all, do you want Bart to bolt after the season for basically nothing when we can gain some major league ready stud arms right now? I hope I can still be considered "a real fan" even though I disagree completely with this. KW may be an idiot but I have to believe that he didn't get Colon so that he could deal him in the middle of pennant chase. If we don't think we can win this division and play deep into October then deal him. Real fan or not - and regardless of the players you get - it is a white flag trade. This franchise needs to worry not only about the "real fan" but the "casual fan". A casual fan will not understand this - because in a city that has not won a World Series in over 86 years - dealing the marquee player you got to try and win that elusive World Series will appear as surrender. The casual fan is what allows for bigger payrolls. Deal Colon and the days of big walk-ups to the ticket windows are a memory. I am just saying I'd understand the trade from a few standpoints. 1) Colon has been far from an ace this season... 2) If we can't resign him, we basically get nothing besides a draft pick... 3) If we can get STUD arms, then why the hell not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I didn't catch every post on this topic, so I may have missed it, but what is the source of this rumor? I don't see ANY way in hell that the Giants would give up Foppert, Ainsworth and Williams for Colon, unless we are talking about Jimmy Foppert, Kirk Ainsworth and George Williams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I didn't catch every post on this topic, so I may have missed it, but what is the source of this rumor? I don't see ANY way in hell that the Giants would give up Foppert, Ainsworth and Williams for Colon, unless we are talking about Jimmy Foppert, Kirk Ainsworth and George Williams. Geez, I just hope the Giants GM isn't reading this thinking hmmm Kenny fell for the Barry/Berry thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I didn't catch every post on this topic, so I may have missed it, but what is the source of this rumor? I don't see ANY way in hell that the Giants would give up Foppert, Ainsworth and Williams for Colon, unless we are talking about Jimmy Foppert, Kirk Ainsworth and George Williams. Geez, I just hope the Giants GM isn't reading this thinking hmmm Kenny fell for the Barry/Berry thing... Again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox247 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I gotta agree with Jason on this one. I would be happy as hell if we got Ainsworth, Foppert, and someone else. Colon is a proven winner and dominating as hell when he wants to, he would be the missing piece to the Giants domination. They have a whole s***load of great prospects and I think we could easily get three good ones. It will not only make us a whole lot better in the future, but we can still win this year. We'd have something like Buehrle, Loaiza, Foppert, Garland, other Giant acqusition. That would make our depth alot deeper and we'll be built for years to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 It will not only make us a whole lot better in the future, but we can still win this year. That would make our depth alot deeper and we'll be built for years to come. Your opinion..... but I wouldn't go that far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox247 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I'd take Ainsworth/Foppert over a couple of draft picks anyday of the week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I'm implying losing Colon and adding Ponson, Kendall, and Giles. The Sox lose two guys from their major league roster (Colon and Lee) while adding Foppert and Williams (Ainsworth would be a PTBNL) with Williams stepping into the 5 slot in the rotation or Foppert doing it and the other becoming a long reliever. Rotation Loaiza Buehrle Ponson Garland Foppert/Williams Bullpen Wunsch (supposed to be back up on Friday) Marte Gordon Koch White Glover or Foppert/Williams/Wright/Porzio If anyone is telling me that that rotation would suffer, I think they are nuts. Ponson is pitching just as good as Colon this season and I actually think he is a similar pitcher to Colon. The Sox also no longer have Porzio in the 5th slot of the rotation. Jerome Williams is 5-1 with a sub 3.00 ERA in 10 or 11 starts for the Giants. Total Payroll added: Brian Giles - 9 mill a season over the next 3 years(27 mill total) Kendall - 5.5 mill a season over the next 4 years (22 mill; Pirates pay like 47% of his salary) Ponson - Free agent at the end of the year, but Sox could resign him for less then Colon would of cost. I'll just roughly say 6 mill; give or take some. Ponson turned down a 3 yr 15 mill deal, so I'm thinking we could get him. The deal had an option for another year. That is basically $20 million added onto the payroll. Total Payroll Lost: Bartolo Colon - 9 Mill Carlos Lee - 4.5 Mill (Arbitration Eligible Next Year; Will get at least that much) That equates to 13.5 mill. So the Sox would be adding 6.5 million over the long haul with those aquisitions. Now they will be able to resign Jose for less next year (Maybe save 2 mill there). They will also see Maggs contract jump so I figure in the offseason Koch or someone could get dealt for a younger player if they need to free up a little more money. Sox would not resign Everett (Hope to get picks) but the Sox would try to resign Alomar Jr. Yes, you'd be adding payroll over the long haul, but I think its not a ridiculous amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 Plus, is a payroll of 60 or 65 million really that high, especially knowing JR is gonna make some money this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox247 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 If we get Williams, Foppert, Ainsworth, I see no need for taking on Ponson's salary anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbaho-WG Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 Sabean would never trade 2 of Ainsworth, Williams, and Foppert for Colon. Might be willing to part with Bonser or Threets, but that's just a pipedream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I ahve kind of just scanned this post after teh first two pages. Flog me if I missed something. Why does SF want Colon and why do we want to give him up? I understand youth, economics and baseball. If our goal is to win it all, this trade does not lead to this. If it did, SF would not be making the trade. I think the trade would be one for one. Colon for one of these guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Fainter Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 Foppert and Williams are more untouchable than Honel and Reed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted July 24, 2003 Author Share Posted July 24, 2003 I didn't catch every post on this topic, so I may have missed it, but what is the source of this rumor? rex its not just one source but as i said in the orginal. a rumor that is not going away. the time/cbs/espn have all said if the sox fold they may trade colon. however the espn went further and mention the sfo was still trying pursue the trade. the sport talk radio out sfo way has been talking about the idea of getting colon regardless of the sox being in the race or not. my thought were is why is it still being talked about, why haven't management came out and said no way in hell or something to that effect. but that being said if true can we fleece sfo out of some of there top prospects? who would we get or something to that effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 Kendall - 5.5 mill a season over the next 4 years (22 mill; Pirates pay like 47% of his salary) Jason what makes you think the Pirates would be willing to pay any of Kendall's salary? I thought that was the point of them including Giles in the deal and only asking for mid-level prospects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 Kendall - 5.5 mill a season over the next 4 years (22 mill; Pirates pay like 47% of his salary) Jason what makes you think the Pirates would be willing to pay any of Kendall's salary? I thought that was the point of them including Giles in the deal and only asking for mid-level prospects? Because they still save 21 million and I can't see anyone taking on all that salary and Giles. The Yanks wouldn't even do it. If you take on Kendall with Giles and pay Kendalls entire contract you should get him for free. Gammons said that the Pirates would be willing to pay part of Kendalls contract or at least I thought I heard him say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Kendall - 5.5 mill a season over the next 4 years (22 mill; Pirates pay like 47% of his salary) Jason what makes you think the Pirates would be willing to pay any of Kendall's salary? I thought that was the point of them including Giles in the deal and only asking for mid-level prospects? Because they still save 21 million and I can't see anyone taking on all that salary and Giles. The Yanks wouldn't even do it. If you take on Kendall with Giles and pay Kendalls entire contract you should get him for free. Gammons said that the Pirates would be willing to pay part of Kendalls contract or at least I thought I heard him say that. This is just more speculation on my part, because I don't see a trade of Colon coming, but here is another trade idea. While we are talking about trading Colon why not trade him to the Cards. They are more despert for pitching and utilmatly probaly would be willing to give up more for Colon. I think we could potentially get Drew, Harron(SP)(He is there young pitcher they just brought up), Journal, and maybe even Kline. I think Kline may be a little to much in that deal but as I said you never know what a team would give up in terms of getting a huge need. While the Talent isn't as good as the giants deal, we would still be getting talent. Especially in Drew who would fill our need in CF and as a LH power hitter. I don't know 2 much about the 2 young pitchers except they are the the top pitchers if not players in thier system. And of course Kline is one of the best LHs out of the bullpen. Hey maybe we could add Koch to the deal to make sure we got Kline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Kendall - 5.5 mill a season over the next 4 years (22 mill; Pirates pay like 47% of his salary) Jason what makes you think the Pirates would be willing to pay any of Kendall's salary? I thought that was the point of them including Giles in the deal and only asking for mid-level prospects? Because they still save 21 million and I can't see anyone taking on all that salary and Giles. The Yanks wouldn't even do it. If you take on Kendall with Giles and pay Kendalls entire contract you should get him for free. Gammons said that the Pirates would be willing to pay part of Kendalls contract or at least I thought I heard him say that. This is just more speculation on my part, because I don't see a trade of Colon coming, but here is another trade idea. While we are talking about trading Colon why not trade him to the Cards. They are more despert for pitching and utilmatly probaly would be willing to give up more for Colon. I think we could potentially get Drew, Harron(SP)(He is there young pitcher they just brought up), Journal, and maybe even Kline. I think Kline may be a little to much in that deal but as I said you never know what a team would give up in terms of getting a huge need. While the Talent isn't as good as the giants deal, we would still be getting talent. Especially in Drew who would fill our need in CF and as a LH power hitter. I don't know 2 much about the 2 young pitchers except they are the the top pitchers if not players in thier system. And of course Kline is one of the best LHs out of the bullpen. Hey maybe we could add Koch to the deal to make sure we got Kline. Personally, I can't see the Cards trading anyone out of their bullpen, because it is incredibly thin, and filled with a lot of injury prone guys such as Isringhausen, and Eldred. Plus they have zero big time prospects that it would take to get a guy like Colon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Kendall - 5.5 mill a season over the next 4 years (22 mill; Pirates pay like 47% of his salary) Jason what makes you think the Pirates would be willing to pay any of Kendall's salary? I thought that was the point of them including Giles in the deal and only asking for mid-level prospects? Because they still save 21 million and I can't see anyone taking on all that salary and Giles. The Yanks wouldn't even do it. If you take on Kendall with Giles and pay Kendalls entire contract you should get him for free. Gammons said that the Pirates would be willing to pay part of Kendalls contract or at least I thought I heard him say that. This is just more speculation on my part, because I don't see a trade of Colon coming, but here is another trade idea. While we are talking about trading Colon why not trade him to the Cards. They are more despert for pitching and utilmatly probaly would be willing to give up more for Colon. I think we could potentially get Drew, Harron(SP)(He is there young pitcher they just brought up), Journal, and maybe even Kline. I think Kline may be a little to much in that deal but as I said you never know what a team would give up in terms of getting a huge need. While the Talent isn't as good as the giants deal, we would still be getting talent. Especially in Drew who would fill our need in CF and as a LH power hitter. I don't know 2 much about the 2 young pitchers except they are the the top pitchers if not players in thier system. And of course Kline is one of the best LHs out of the bullpen. Hey maybe we could add Koch to the deal to make sure we got Kline. Personally, I can't see the Cards trading anyone out of their bullpen, because it is incredibly thin, and filled with a lot of injury prone guys such as Isringhausen, and Eldred. Plus they have zero big time prospects that it would take to get a guy like Colon. Your probaly right, and Walt Jockety has said that he won't trade Drew. I just wonder if he had a chance at Colon would he do it. And I would call Harron and Journall good prospects. But like I said they probaly aren't as good as Williams, Foppert, Ainworth etc. of the giants. But it doesn't matter anyway all of it is speculation and till a deal is made there is no deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Pardon my pickiness but perhaps the proper spelling of the player's name is Dan Haren, not Harron. Weak attempt at alliteration, but it is before noon.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Pardon my pickiness but perhaps the proper spelling of the player's name is Dan Haren, not Harron. Weak attempt at alliteration, but it is before noon.... Don't worry about it Rex, I wasn't sure how to spell and glad you could give me the correct one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Foppert, Harron, and Chad Zerbe. I like Zerbe because walks are not in his arsenal, control is a great quality for relievers to have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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