Would you be a fan of becoming more defensively oriented?

[son of a rude]

We just faced the mariners, who are pretty crappy on offense, yet they have a better record than us. Lets compare the stats.

 

Runs: CHW - 529 SEA - 455

HR: CHW - 136 SEA - 107

OPS: CHW - .753 SEA - .718

 

 

We are clearly a better offensive team than they are. They may have had a better 1-2-3 in the starting rotation throughout the year, but their 4 and 5 problems are even worse than ours.

 

In my opinion, the reason they have a better record than us is because of defense. Jack Wilson sucks up everything at SS. (i know they haven't had him the whole year, though) Adrian Beltre is excellent at 3B. Franklin Gutierrez is the best CF. Ichiro is great in RF.

 

Their defense is a big reason why they have a record that they have. I am tired of seeing lousy the white sox and their lousy ass defense cost us runs. I really hope that Alex Rios becomes the starting CF soon. Would you be in favor of signing somebody like Randy Winn in the offseason, just to solidify the defense? That's just an example. We have a great pitching staff for the future. I think it's time we start getting some good defense players to back them up. We would obviously have to sacrifice some of our offensive production if we did this, but I think it would be worth it.

[thedoctor]

more defensive orientation?

 

i'd take any.

[lostfan]

I think Getz and Beckham will both improve next season. We also won't have one of the worst defensive outfields in the majors.

[Balta1701]

I think Getz and Beckham will both improve next season. We also won't have one of the worst defensive outfields in the majors.

Hopefully Ramirez too. His big problem is so completely mental/focus that it's totally something that can be fixed.

[MiddleCoastBias]

Hopefully Ramirez too. His big problem is so completely mental/focus that it's totally something that can be fixed.

 

I don't know, I've always felt like the mental problems are the hardest to fix. If he's playing at that level and he still has lapses in his focus, I think that's a serious personal problem that isn't going to fix with the flick of a switch. It's the same thing with people that don't hustle, like Andruw Jones. I feel like you make it seem like a quick-fix, something that can be easily corrected. Sure it sounds easy to correct (Ramirez- get your head out of your ass!) but it might be harder than that (and yes, I know I'm oversimplifying)

[caulfield12]

Gutierrez has been a steal for the M's. When I saw that trade, I was already scratching my head. And now they've already given up on Ben Francisco, basically.

 

Endy Chavez, when he was healthy, was another player who was perfect for Safeco Field.

 

We have to sacrifice some defense for offense playing 81 home games at USCF...but the acquisition of Rios and the continued improvement from the left side of the infield and Getz/Nix should make us at least an "average" team defensively.

 

I wouldn't mind sacrificing Pods and getting a better defensive player (and no, that's not Randy Winn at this stage in his career) OR a leadoff hitter like Figgins who's a much better bet that Pods going forward. Carl Crawford would be too expensive for only one year IMO. I'm not sure how a line-up with Endy Chavez/Franklin Gutierrez in RF/LF and Rios in CF/RF would end up offensively, but Dye definitely needs to be DHing more (if he's retained) and Pods....well...thanks for 2009 but keeping him around is almost like Joe Crede waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

I would prefer not to pencil in Pods as the leadoff hitter coming into 2010, thank you very much. Not just because of yesterday...but it's the same risk we took heading into this season with Owens/Anderson/Wise, Lillibridge, Betemit, Fields and Corky Miller having key roles. It has taken at least half the season to fix those mistakes and misjudgements by KW. With that said, I think KW has done a wonderful job of keeping us from bottoming out, losing too much attendance/revenue for this season and really putting us in the driver's seat in the ALCD heading into 2010. I think our season ticket retention rate should be pretty high with Rios and Peavy on board, obviously so if we can make the playoffs again and/or acquire one more name like Figgins in the offseason.

 

Of course, you would have said the Twins and Indians were (coming into 2009) where we LOOK to be heading into 2010....in terms of dominant positioning, and look how well that ended up for those two teams...

Edited August 13, 2009 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

Rios is going to be a huge plus whenever he is on the field. There will be a lot less balls falling in the OF, and a lot less guys trying to run on our arms. The infield is what is scary. I don't know if I have seen a left side of the IF with less range than ours.

[son of a rude]

Gutierrez has been a steal for the M's. When I saw that trade, I was already scratching my head. And now they've already given up on Ben Francisco, basically.

 

Endy Chavez, when he was healthy, was another player who was perfect for Safeco Field.

 

We have to sacrifice some defense for offense playing 81 home games at USCF...but the acquisition of Rios and the continued improvement from the left side of the infield and Getz/Nix should make us at least an "average" team defensively.

 

I wouldn't mind sacrificing Pods and getting a better defensive player (and no, that's not Randy Winn at this stage in his career) OR a leadoff hitter like Figgins who's a much better bet that Pods going forward. Carl Crawford would be too expensive for only one year IMO. I'm not sure how a line-up with Endy Chavez/Franklin Gutierrez in RF/LF and Rios in CF/RF would end up offensively, but Dye definitely needs to be DHing more (if he's retained) and Pods....well...thanks for 2009 but keeping him around is almost like Joe Crede waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

I would prefer not to pencil in Pods as the leadoff hitter coming into 2010, thank you very much. Not just because of yesterday...but it's the same risk we took heading into this season with Owens/Anderson/Wise, Lillibridge, Betemit, Fields and Corky Miller having key roles. It has taken at least half the season to fix those mistakes and misjudgements by KW. With that said, I think KW has done a wonderful job of keeping us from bottoming out, losing too much attendance/revenue for this season and really putting us in the driver's seat in the ALCD heading into 2010. I think our season ticket retention rate should be pretty high with Rios and Peavy on board, obviously so if we can make the playoffs again and/or acquire one more name like Figgins in the offseason.

 

Of course, you would have said the Twins and Indians were (coming into 2009) where we LOOK to be heading into 2010....in terms of dominant positioning, and look how well that ended up for those two teams...

It's a shame D2 turned to such s*** lately... During that stretch where he was hitting .400 in AA, it looked like he may have had a shot at the roster next year. He is supposed to be an excellent CF. Him and Rios in the outfield would be pretty nice.

 

[SoxFan562004]

It's such a hard thing to balance playing 81 games in the Cell. I think you have to lean towards giving up a little D for offense, but with that said that idea can still be applied and the Sox could play much better defense than they have this year. Overall, with the home park, the White Sox can't go overboard

[Milkman delivers]

We just faced the mariners, who are pretty crappy on offense, yet they have a better record than us. Lets compare the stats.

 

Runs: CHW - 529 SEA - 455

HR: CHW - 136 SEA - 107

OPS: CHW - .753 SEA - .718

 

 

We are clearly a better offensive team than they are. They may have had a better 1-2-3 in the starting rotation throughout the year, but their 4 and 5 problems are even worse than ours.

 

In my opinion, the reason they have a better record than us is because of defense. Jack Wilson sucks up everything at SS. (i know they haven't had him the whole year, though) Adrian Beltre is excellent at 3B. Franklin Gutierrez is the best CF. Ichiro is great in RF.

 

Their defense is a big reason why they have a record that they have. I am tired of seeing lousy the white sox and their lousy ass defense cost us runs. I really hope that Alex Rios becomes the starting CF soon. Would you be in favor of signing somebody like Randy Winn in the offseason, just to solidify the defense? That's just an example. We have a great pitching staff for the future. I think it's time we start getting some good defense players to back them up. We would obviously have to sacrifice some of our offensive production if we did this, but I think it would be worth it.

 

Is that true? If so, I had no idea.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure Hawk said that the Mariners and White Sox are the two worst fielding teams in baseball. Did he actually say that, or am I making this up?

[iamshack]

We just faced the mariners, who are pretty crappy on offense, yet they have a better record than us. Lets compare the stats.

 

Runs: CHW - 529 SEA - 455

HR: CHW - 136 SEA - 107

OPS: CHW - .753 SEA - .718

 

 

We are clearly a better offensive team than they are. They may have had a better 1-2-3 in the starting rotation throughout the year, but their 4 and 5 problems are even worse than ours.

 

In my opinion, the reason they have a better record than us is because of defense. Jack Wilson sucks up everything at SS. (i know they haven't had him the whole year, though) Adrian Beltre is excellent at 3B. Franklin Gutierrez is the best CF. Ichiro is great in RF.

 

Their defense is a big reason why they have a record that they have. I am tired of seeing lousy the white sox and their lousy ass defense cost us runs. I really hope that Alex Rios becomes the starting CF soon. Would you be in favor of signing somebody like Randy Winn in the offseason, just to solidify the defense? That's just an example. We have a great pitching staff for the future. I think it's time we start getting some good defense players to back them up. We would obviously have to sacrifice some of our offensive production if we did this, but I think it would be worth it.

There was an article about defense in SI prior to the season. The author discussed how the new Mariners GM was attempting to take a page out of the Rays book by seeking to improve the team through defense this season. It seems the secret to the Rays success last year, was not so much that their pitching suddenly got better, but that their defense improved, which in turn, appeared to improve their pitching.

 

It appears as though the defensive improvement has indeed helped the Mariners.

 

I remember thinking I should bet the over in total wins for the M's prior to the season, which was at like 74 or something. Looks as though it would have been a solid bet.

[iamshack]

Is that true? If so, I had no idea.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure Hawk said that the Mariners and White Sox are the two worst fielding teams in baseball. Did he actually say that, or am I making this up?

I haven't checked, but that may be the case considering the way Hawk would probably measure defense, strictly by total number of errors or by fielding percentage. But it may the case that the Mariners are also getting to an extraordinary number of balls in play, which would be a more accurate measure of defense.

[son of a rude]

Is that true? If so, I had no idea.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure Hawk said that the Mariners and White Sox are the two worst fielding teams in baseball. Did he actually say that, or am I making this up?

Yeah, i think i heard that too. Since Hawk said it, you should probably believe the exact opposite. He must have been judging off of fielding percentage.

 

Gutierrez leads the league in UZR for CF'ers. His UZR 15.1 while the person in 2nd (upton) has a UZR of 7.7.

Edited August 13, 2009 by son of a rude

[Felix]

Is that true? If so, I had no idea.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure Hawk said that the Mariners and White Sox are the two worst fielding teams in baseball. Did he actually say that, or am I making this up?

The Mariners are a fantastic defensive team, and the fact that Hawk thinks that is hilarious. He's probably looking at fielding percentage, because I have major doubts that Hawk knows any real defensive metrics.

 

As for this thread, I love defense. I absolutely hate watching the Sox in the field, given how awful we are defensively.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Felix

[GordonNotDavid]

We just faced the mariners, who are pretty crappy on offense, yet they have a better record than us. Lets compare the stats.

 

Runs: CHW - 529 SEA - 455

HR: CHW - 136 SEA - 107

OPS: CHW - .753 SEA - .718

 

 

We are clearly a better offensive team than they are. They may have had a better 1-2-3 in the starting rotation throughout the year, but their 4 and 5 problems are even worse than ours.

 

In my opinion, the reason they have a better record than us is because of defense. Jack Wilson sucks up everything at SS. (i know they haven't had him the whole year, though) Adrian Beltre is excellent at 3B. Franklin Gutierrez is the best CF. Ichiro is great in RF.

 

Their defense is a big reason why they have a record that they have. I am tired of seeing lousy the white sox and their lousy ass defense cost us runs. I really hope that Alex Rios becomes the starting CF soon. Would you be in favor of signing somebody like Randy Winn in the offseason, just to solidify the defense? That's just an example. We have a great pitching staff for the future. I think it's time we start getting some good defense players to back them up. We would obviously have to sacrifice some of our offensive production if we did this, but I think it would be worth it.

 

Of course defense is a good thing. But it's notoriously difficult to quantify.

 

(Fraud "stats" like Bill James +/- and UZR notwithstanding.)

 

I'd like to have Ichiro, young Kenny Lofton and even younger Andruw Jones as a starting OF. Don't mean it will happen because Ozzie doesn't prize OF defense that much.

[SouthsideDon48]

I feel some people will never be happy, lol.

 

Whenever we get players with good defense, we complain about their offense, then whenever said players are gone, we complain about the need for more defense.

 

Case in point: Juan Uribe.

 

Juan Uribe is probably the type of player you can expect when it comes to top defense. Guys like Joe Crede who has top-notch defense AND a capable bat are probably more rare than the Uribe types.

[caulfield12]

I wouldn't say, overall, tha Uribe and Crede were THAT dissimilar offensively and defensively.

 

Yes, Joe was more clutch in 05/06, but Uribe put up some very nice stats in 2004...they both struck out a ton and didn't walk much. I'll just leave it that Crede was a bit overratd and Juanie was a bit underrated because of his versatility and steadying presence in the clubhouse. He was the most popular teammate of many in the clubhouse, and Buerhle actually offered to cut JR a check for $1 million of his salary to keep him around (if that would help)...would have been nice, seeing how inept Wilson Betemit was this year after he was misused coming out of ST and never found a groove with the Sox.

 

Both were very good in clutch situations that we're missing out on this year, scoring those runners from 3B with less than two outs on SAC flies.

[EvilJester99]

I would like to get more defensive and have a few more doubles triples hitters and give up a home run or nothing player or two.

[chw42]

Seattle also pitches better than we do...

 

It's not just their defense, although if you hit a ball to right or center, it's probably getting caught.

 

Ichiro and Gutierrez are beasts.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

This team would have really improved defensively (and offensively as well) if they could have acquired Scott Rolen for 3B, with Beckham moving to second.

 

Or, if they could have gotten Scutaro for SS and move Ramirez to 2B....

 

An infield of Beckham at 3B, Ramirez at SS and Getz at 2B just doesn't cut it defensively.

Edited August 15, 2009 by South Side Fireworks Man

[South Side Fireworks Man]

After watching last night's game, I'd like to see Q DH next year and get new. major league calibur defensive players at LF, RF, 3B, & SS with Beckham moving to 2B. Maybe Ramirez could be tried in LF.

 

This team can't catch the ball and it's taking it's toll on the pitchers as well as preventing them from being anything more than a .500 team.