U of I

[Texsox]

Now that my daughter is there, I realize how much it sucks to lose the mascot. Damn, the hats and s*** just suck without him.

 

/stupid rant over.

[clyons]

Meanwhile, the Seminole's still chuckin' his flaming spear down in Tallahassee.

[Soxbadger]

Hard to tell FSU to stop using the Seminole name, when the Seminole Tribe would fight it tooth and nail to make sure they can.

 

There is no Illini tribe to give its approval and unfortunately the headdress etc was Sioux I believe.

[CanOfCorn]

Hard to tell FSU to stop using the Seminole name, when the Seminole Tribe would fight it tooth and nail to make sure they can.

 

There is no Illini tribe to give its approval and unfortunately the headdress etc was Sioux I believe.

 

There is no Illini tribe because they are extinct. My issue is...it shouldn't matter what the tribe says. If it's racist for one, it's racist for all.

[clyons]

Hard to tell FSU to stop using the Seminole name, when the Seminole Tribe would fight it tooth and nail to make sure they can.

 

There is no Illini tribe to give its approval and unfortunately the headdress etc was Sioux I believe.

 

True, there are no Illini around to give their approval (in exchange for large cash donations like at FSU).

 

I just find it odd that the NCAA can deem a dancing Indian "hostile and offensive" imagery, yet tolerate and approve of a spear-chucking one.

 

The hypocrisy in amateur athletics is just unreal.

[bigruss]

Hey I know we had this conversation in another thread awhile back but where is she living this year? I probably was near her today at convocation (not trying to be creepy).

[bigruss]

What about the Fighting Irish? Youre going to tell me that EVERY Irish person is not going to find that offensive?

[Soxbadger]

How can it be racist if that race you are supposedly offending (Seminole) is involved and completely supports it?

 

Each Native American tribe is different, they have the right to say how people can use their name.

[Milkman delivers]

What about the Fighting Irish? Youre going to tell me that EVERY Irish person is not going to find that offensive?

 

Because Notre Dame isn't relevant anymore.

[witesoxfan]

what about the Cleveland Indians? or Washington Redskins? those aren't exactly group specific, yet both teams have been around since, like, forever

[Soxbadger]

Those are professional teams.

 

You are talking about a NCAA rule.

 

As for fighting Irish, if Irish people started to get upset about it Im sure they would change the name.

[clyons]

How can it be racist if that race you are supposedly offending (Seminole) is involved and completely supports it?

 

Each Native American tribe is different, they have the right to say how people can use their name.

 

How can Chief Illiniwek be racist if the people you are supposedly offending (Illini) are all dead and thus not around to be offended?

 

If each Native American tribe is different, who is doing the complaining on behalf of the Illini, and why aren't they just as offended by the flaming spear-chucker, even if the Seminoles aren't? The dead Illini sure aren't doing any complaining.

[dasox24]

Hey I know we had this conversation in another thread awhile back but where is she living this year? I probably was near her today at convocation (not trying to be creepy).

Looks like bigruss is single and ready to mingle...

[bigruss]

Looks like bigruss is single and ready to mingle...

Haha it sure looks that way by what I said, but I am not. Just curious because I am an RA and was wondering if she lived in my building.

[SoxFan1]

Haha it sure looks that way by what I said, but I am not. Just curious because I am an RA and was wondering if she lived in my building.

Oooooh, you could spy on her and report to dad. Underage drinking in the dorms FTW.

[danman31]

How can it be racist if that race you are supposedly offending (Seminole) is involved and completely supports it?

 

Each Native American tribe is different, they have the right to say how people can use their name.

Yeah, the Seminole situation is completely different.

[Soxbadger]

How can Chief Illiniwek be racist if the people you are supposedly offending (Illini) are all dead and thus not around to be offended?

 

If each Native American tribe is different, who is doing the complaining on behalf of the Illini, and why aren't they just as offended by the flaming spear-chucker, even if the Seminoles aren't? The dead Illini sure aren't doing any complaining.

 

Because the NCAA rules are not about "people being alive to be offended".

 

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?key=/ncaa/NCA...al+Information/

 

The NCAA policy on Native American mascots does not require member institutions to change their names or mascots. The actual policy precludes member schools with Native American nicknames, mascots, or imagery from hosting NCAA championships. These schools are still eligible to participate in championships, but the policy restricts them from wearing uniforms or other paraphernalia that depict nicknames or images while competing in NCAA championship events.

 

And then:

 

Early in the implementation phase, the NCAA granted exceptions for those institutions that carried specific tribal names and received formal support for the use of those names and associated imagery from the tribe. The decision to grant exceptions is based on the endorsement of the “namesake” tribe and is grounded in respect for the authority of a federally recognized Native American tribe to ultimately make decisions on those issues directly impacting the tribe. The decision to honor namesake tribe authority must be respected. To ignore the opinions of tribes who own those names would be an even greater injustice.

 

So if the Illini were a tribe they could give an endorsement. As you have said, there are no Illini left, therefore they can not endorse the use which forever precludes the Illini from using the name in any way affiliated with the tribe.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Soxbadger

[clyons]

Yeah, the Seminole situation is completely different.

I'm not out to get this moved to the 'buster, but I don't see how.

 

The white guys in suits at the NCAA forced U of I to get rid of the Chief because they deemed him hostile and offensive. They did this because some Indians (not Seminoles, and certainly not the Illini) and other people complained about his dancing. The NCAA acted in response to these complaints.

 

Presumably, these same people who complained about the Chief are equally offended (if not more so) by the Seminole's antics, as his are arguably more inflammatory (pun intended). Yet with FSU, the NCAA seems to not care any more whether those same complainers are offended, simply because the Seminoles aren't. Suddenly, the non-tribesmen to whom the NCAA so diligently responded in the Illini case don't matter any more? I understand that the Seminoles themselves don't mind (and they're no doubt more important), but my point is the Illini obviously don't mind either, and yet that didn't stop the NCAA with regards to the Chief. And suppose U of I could produce an affidavit from one lone Illini descendant saying he doesn't mind the Chief any more than Seminoles mind the FSU guy? Would that alone render the Chief no longer "hostile or offensive" to those who complained in the first place?

 

Seems to me that Indian imagery and antics are either hostle or offensive or they aren't, and it isn't the NCAA's role to judge. For the NCAA to say "if its ok with the Seminoles, its ok with us" is a hypocritical cop out. You can't always decide what's ethical or right based on the consent of those "involved." Otherwise prostitution would be legal. Come to think of it, the NCAA would fit right in with that.

Edited August 21, 2009 by PlaySumFnJurny

[kjshoe04]

Both schools should have to change the names of their athletic teams in my eyes. Just go the whole way. It solves everyone's problems.

[Soxbadger]

Presumably, these same people who complained about the Chief are equally offended (if not more so) by the Seminole's antics, as his are arguably more inflammatory (pun intended). Yet with FSU, the NCAA seems to not care any more whether those same complainers are offended, simply because the Seminoles aren't. Suddenly, the non-tribesmen to whom the NCAA so diligently responded in the Illini case don't matter any more? I understand that the Seminoles themselves don't mind (and they're no doubt more important), but my point is the Illini obviously don't mind either, and yet that didn't stop the NCAA with regards to the Chief. And suppose U of I could produce an affidavit from one lone Illini descendant saying he doesn't mind the Chief any more than Seminoles mind the FSU guy? Would that alone render the Chief no longer "hostile or offensive" to those who complained in the first place?

 

Seems to me that Indian imagery and antics are either hostle or offensive or they aren't, and it isn't the NCAA's role to judge. For the NCAA to say "if its ok with the Seminoles, its ok with us" is a hypocritical cop out. You can't always decide what's ethical or right based on the consent of those "involved." Otherwise prostitution would be legal. Come to think of it, the NCAA would fit right in with that.

 

How can you be offended by the Seminole's antics?

 

Its an actual Seminole Indian, being supported by the Seminole Tribe.

 

The Seminole's are their own entity, they can do what they want with their culture, history and tribe name.

 

The problem with your argument is this:

 

but my point is the Illini obviously don't mind either, and yet that didn't stop the NCAA with regards to the Chief. And suppose U of I could produce an affidavit from one lone Illini descendant saying he doesn't mind the Chief any more than Seminoles mind the FSU guy? Would that alone render the Chief no longer "hostile or offensive" to those who complained in the first place?

 

Just because they no longer exist, does not mean that the NCAA should let Illinois or any other school use them in a manner that they find hostile or offensive. Im not sure how you can say the Illini use of Illiniwek was not offensive when it was entirely made up. They used a headdress from the Sioux (a tribe completely unrelated to the Illini) they use a dance completely fictionalized. Perhaps if the Illini had actually done their homework and created a character that was honorable and respectful of the actual Illini tribe, you may have an argument.

 

But the reality here is that the school of Illinois could care less about how they represent the Illini tribe. If they cared they would not have used a Sioux headdress, nor would they have made up a phony dance that is a caricature of Native American culture.

 

You are trying to compare a mascot entirely conceived by a University (with no relation or no permission from the tribe) to a mascot that is entirely supported and endorsed by the Seminole.

 

Here is some of the history of the FSU-Seminole relations, you will notice that many times the Seminole's asked FSU to modify their use, every time FSU complied.

 

http://unirel.fsu.edu/seminoles/pages/timeline.html

 

So for example if the Illini changed their name to the Sioux, and got the Sioux's approval. And at every step consulted the Sioux to make sure that they were not just "making s*** up" about their hsitory, Im sure the NCAA would let them keep the Chief.

 

The problem is that Illinois admits to just making s*** up. Some one needs to speak for those who cant, you cant just let a school like Illinois completely misrepresent a tribe, just because "they arent around to object." The NCAA takes the position that any use of Native American's is objectionable, unless otherwise proven.

 

Both schools should have to change the names of their athletic teams in my eyes. Just go the whole way. It solves everyone's problems.

 

How is that fair to the Seminole tribe?

 

They should be allowed to use their name however they feel. If they want to be associated with FSU, who is the NCAA to stop them. The NCAA does not want to have to go to court and then subsequently lose to the Seminole Tribe.

 

From the website (im repeating it)

 

Early in the implementation phase, the NCAA granted exceptions for those institutions that carried specific tribal names and received formal support for the use of those names and associated imagery from the tribe. The decision to grant exceptions is based on the endorsement of the “namesake” tribe and is grounded in respect for the authority of a federally recognized Native American tribe to ultimately make decisions on those issues directly impacting the tribe. The decision to honor namesake tribe authority must be respected. To ignore the opinions of tribes who own those names would be an even greater injustice.

 

The Seminole's are a federally recognized tribe, they have rights. You cant just take away their rights because other schools were making a mockery of Native American culture.

 

Say what you will but the comparison is horrible.

 

I cant imagine that the Seminole tribe would support FSU if they went out with a Cherokee headdress and did a dance created by a boyscout.

[clyons]

Badger--

 

I still think the NCAA is being radically hyprocritical, and the matter has nothing to do with "federally protected rights," despite the status given to tribes by the federal government. As you said, this is about NCAA rules and their relationship to the hosting of athletic tournaments, so that point’s just a red herring dressed up in legalese. We're not talking Title IX here. The Seminoles don't enjoy federal protection with respect to how they are depicted by FSU, any more than they do with respect to how they may be depicted in a TV movie (let's say a PBS movie, to keep "state actors" involved).

 

To me, this whole thing is grossly hypocritical because, as I said, if some descendant of the Illini confederation suddenly emerged from a cave on the prairie and said, "I don’t care whether the school made him up or not, I’m not offended by Chief Illiniwek and actually kind of think that it honors my people in a positive way by keeping their memory alive,” then, what was deemed "hostile and offensive" one day would suddenly become retroactively acceptable the next. That could never happen, of course, but if one 100 year old geezer had been around to say that five years ago, the NCAA would not have applied its rule to Illinois and all of the people who had registered offense would have been forever SOL, regardless of whether “they” found the Chief offensive or not.

 

I don’t care to debate whether the Chief was or was not politically incorrect or offensive. I did my fair share of that when the question was still relevant. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I’ve given up trying to change anyone’s. That’s not what my posts have been about.

 

I think the NCAA is hypocritical in a lot of things it does, and this is just one more prime example to me.

 

f***, Brian Roberts just homered again.

Edited August 22, 2009 by PlaySumFnJurny

[mr_genius]

the 'Chief' needed to go. the only thing me and Lowercaserepublican ever agreed on. We are both U of I alum.

Edited August 22, 2009 by mr_genius

[StrangeSox]

I never really cared either way and laughed at the protesters on both sides. Epitome of "college kids have nothing better to do."

[Texsox]

Haha it sure looks that way by what I said, but I am not. Just curious because I am an RA and was wondering if she lived in my building.

 

She's in Bromley. She joined like five organizations over the weekend. So far she's enjoying it.

[Buehrle>Wood]

She's in Bromley. She joined like five organizations over the weekend. So far she's enjoying it.

I lived there last year. Awesome place.