U of I

[bigruss]

What part of a kid doing gymnastics moves in front of a crowd at a sporting event while wearing tribal garb is respectful?

To me, theres middle ground in this argument. I believe the first person who introduced the chief dance actually studied traditional illini dances, why cant we go back to that? Why did we have to get rid of it completely? If we are trying to honor the Illini tribe then do some research, make it historically accurate. But I also dont believe the majority of chief fans were mocking the Illini tribe or wished to do so.

[Texsox]

To me, theres middle ground in this argument. I believe the first person who introduced the chief dance actually studied traditional illini dances, why cant we go back to that? Why did we have to get rid of it completely? If we are trying to honor the Illini tribe then do some research, make it historically accurate. But I also dont believe the majority of chief fans were mocking the Illini tribe or wished to do so.

And you hit the nail on the head. No one was trying to be disrespectful.

 

I believe it is context. Many of the dances should be thought of in a religious context, not an entertainment context. So I am not certain if it is possible to take something akin to a ritual or part of a religious tradition, and use it to try and cheer on a sports team. In other words using a sacred dance for entertainment could be considered disrespectful. Close to having the mascot passing out communion.

 

The Boy Scout National Honor Society is called the Order of the Arrow and is based on traditions of a Delaware Tribe. Every effort is made to preserve the traditions and to reenact those traditions in the same context and as respectful as possible. Sometimes that falls short, especially in the hands of the youth members.

[bigruss]

And you hit the nail on the head. No one was trying to be disrespectful.

 

I believe it is context. Many of the dances should be thought of in a religious context, not an entertainment context. So I am not certain if it is possible to take something akin to a ritual or part of a religious tradition, and use it to try and cheer on a sports team. In other words using a sacred dance for entertainment could be considered disrespectful. Close to having the mascot passing out communion.

 

The Boy Scout National Honor Society is called the Order of the Arrow and is based on traditions of a Delaware Tribe. Every effort is made to preserve the traditions and to reenact those traditions in the same context and as respectful as possible. Sometimes that falls short, especially in the hands of the youth members.

Great point, and I completely understand that. I know people may find it offensive as "entertainment" but looking at religion at sporting games you see it all over, mainly in terms of prayers.

[RockRaines]

To me, theres middle ground in this argument. I believe the first person who introduced the chief dance actually studied traditional illini dances, why cant we go back to that? Why did we have to get rid of it completely? If we are trying to honor the Illini tribe then do some research, make it historically accurate. But I also dont believe the majority of chief fans were mocking the Illini tribe or wished to do so.

Because the approval of this gymnastics routine which it is today was done by white people with their interest in themselves and their sports team. There is no traditional Illini dance. There is no historical significance to a religious ceremony being performed for a football team, zero. The local tribes feel disrespected no matter what halftime ritual you want to see. The majority of Chief fans are fans of the sports teams, and have zero opinion on the actual nature of the dance, where it came from and who its disrespeting.

 

Its gone, its done. And for good reason.

[Texsox]

Great point, and I completely understand that. I know people may find it offensive as "entertainment" but looking at religion at sporting games you see it all over, mainly in terms of prayers.

 

I realize that and since we are gettnig into a level of tradition with the dances I am not familiar with, I can only add this.

 

There are some religious traditions in the Christian faith that are performed almost anywhere, like praying. There are other traditions that are kept to certain services and masses. I would also assume there could be some form of Native American actions that could also be done. But, and again I am just taking a guess here, they would not involve the traditional face paint and other actions we associate with cheering a sports team.

 

But, again we come down to is it possible to fulfill an educational mission in Native American studies at half time of a NCAA final four game? I just do not think so.

 

And it really is amazing how fast I became a Big 10 fan again.

[bigruss]

Because the approval of this gymnastics routine which it is today was done by white people with their interest in themselves and their sports team. There is no traditional Illini dance. There is no historical significance to a religious ceremony being performed for a football team, zero. The local tribes feel disrespected no matter what halftime ritual you want to see. The majority of Chief fans are fans of the sports teams, and have zero opinion on the actual nature of the dance, where it came from and who its disrespeting.

 

Its gone, its done. And for good reason.

That doesnt seem to be the case at Florida State. Im sorry, but I feel that there is a middle ground in an attempt to honor the Tribes in ways they see fit. Now, if they dont want ANY connection to the university, fine. Ill let it be.

[RockRaines]

I realize that and since we are gettnig into a level of tradition with the dances I am not familiar with, I can only add this.

 

There are some religious traditions in the Christian faith that are performed almost anywhere, like praying. There are other traditions that are kept to certain services and masses. I would also assume there could be some form of Native American actions that could also be done. But, and again I am just taking a guess here, they would not involve the traditional face paint and other actions we associate with cheering a sports team.

 

But, again we come down to is it possible to fulfill an educational mission in Native American studies at half time of a NCAA final four game? I just do not think so.

 

And it really is amazing how fast I became a Big 10 fan again.

Personally, I think that sports teams should all take communion on the court before taking free throws. But instead of a wafer, they can use a power bar, and instead of wine, it could be gatorade.

Edited August 28, 2009 by RockRaines

[bigruss]

I realize that and since we are gettnig into a level of tradition with the dances I am not familiar with, I can only add this.

 

There are some religious traditions in the Christian faith that are performed almost anywhere, like praying. There are other traditions that are kept to certain services and masses. I would also assume there could be some form of Native American actions that could also be done. But, and again I am just taking a guess here, they would not involve the traditional face paint and other actions we associate with cheering a sports team.

 

But, again we come down to is it possible to fulfill an educational mission in Native American studies at half time of a NCAA final four game? I just do not think so.

 

And it really is amazing how fast I became a Big 10 fan again.

I wont really try to argue any sort of religious traditions, practices, etc because I really have no experience of it and like you said very little historical background on the Illini religious beliefs.

 

I was more so trying to bring up the topic (not necessarily argue) that if praying before a game is allowed then why isnt a traditional dance that may have religious implications allowed, and I mean it in the sense that they all COULD be asking for good luck, strength, or whatever.

 

Personally, I miss the chief, I grew up watching him as a kid and always liked the attire he wore. I felt it resembled power, strength, honor, many attributes that colleges strive for in a mascot. Now, if people are truly disrespected by the image that the chief portrays then I agree it should be discontinued (which is probably the case). My biggest issue with the whole situation is that other schools get free passes with it (and this may be seen differently by other people which is fine). But when I see the Fighting Irish allowed and loved, I am in shock that it is still like that. Youre going to tell me that Irish people arent upset about that image? Even if they are in the minority, would it still be right to keep taht name? Or is it okay because its Notre Dame and that institution is too sacred to change their mascot.

[Texsox]

Russ, I certainly do not disagree with you about strong, positive feeling towards the Chief. As I mentioned, having my daughter at UoI really brings it home, especially as I look at the cap I am wearing. And the Blackhawk's jersey is perhaps the all-time coolest in sports. We may have swung the pendulum too far.

 

I think the difference would be having an actual member of the tribe do the dance, just as actually practitioners of the faith, are saying the prayer. And I'll toss this out there, some are praying for something other than religious reasons.

[bigruss]

Russ, I certainly do not disagree with you about strong, positive feeling towards the Chief. As I mentioned, having my daughter at UoI really brings it home, especially as I look at the cap I am wearing. And the Blackhawk's jersey is perhaps the all-time coolest in sports. We may have swung the pendulum too far.

 

I think the difference would be having an actual member of the tribe do the dance, just as actually practitioners of the faith, are saying the prayer. And I'll toss this out there, some are praying for something other than religious reasons.

And Im really okay with letting the Chief go if a group is offended by it. I totally understand their side of it. I just feel that an attempt should have been made to keep all sides happy, and I feel this for a lot of issues too (one reason why I dont affiliate myself with any political part, etc).

 

But great conversation so far!

[Soxbadger]

I was more so trying to bring up the topic (not necessarily argue) that if praying before a game is allowed then why isnt a traditional dance that may have religious implications allowed, and I mean it in the sense that they all COULD be asking for good luck, strength, or whatever.

 

Before a game its Christian players doing a Christian prayer.

 

I assure you if before the game a bunch of Christian players put on yarmulkes, wore Hacidic outfits and said The Shema prayer people would be offended.

[Texsox]

Before a game its Christian players doing a Christian prayer.

 

I assure you if before the game a bunch of Christian players put on yarmulkes, wore Hacidic outfits and said The Shema prayer people would be offended.

 

And to further that point, is there really a way for non practitioners of a faith to respectfully portray that faith?

[bigruss]

And to further that point, is there really a way for non practitioners of a faith to respectfully portray that faith?

How many times do people of a faith disrespect those who share the faith. Religion no matter what is going to inspire some, aggravate others.

 

I do admit, it was a weak point that I brought up.

[Texsox]

How many times do people of a faith disrespect those who share the faith. Religion no matter what is going to inspire some, aggravate others.

 

I do admit, it was a weak point that I brought up.

 

I didn't think it was a weak point. Actually it is a strong point in that it validates religious observation during sporting events.

[CanOfCorn]

What part of a kid doing gymnastics moves in front of a crowd at a sporting event while wearing tribal garb is respectful?

 

Fine...then there is no middle ground like Russ and Tex have been saying. I don't care if the Seminole tribe is "ok" with it. I'm sure there are other tribes that find it disrespectful...so, goodbye. And to any other Native American mascot...goodbye.

 

I'm not sure how old you are...you may have been at U of I when I was there in the early 90's, but the problem mostly had to do with listening. As in, no one was doing it. Either side. The U of I was spinning it based on the fact that the outfit was traditional Sioux and the dance was passed down (also Sioux, I believe). The opposition was saying, it's disrespectful, end of story and I don't care what you have to say about it. In the end, after a few more years, it won't matter anymore. What's done is done. What's sad is vocal minority won with no discussion other than, "OK, we just need to end this now."

[Texsox]

Fine...then there is no middle ground like Russ and Tex have been saying. I don't care if the Seminole tribe is "ok" with it. I'm sure there are other tribes that find it disrespectful...so, goodbye. And to any other Native American mascot...goodbye.

 

I'm not sure how old you are...you may have been at U of I when I was there in the early 90's, but the problem mostly had to do with listening. As in, no one was doing it. Either side. The U of I was spinning it based on the fact that the outfit was traditional Sioux and the dance was passed down (also Sioux, I believe). The opposition was saying, it's disrespectful, end of story and I don't care what you have to say about it. In the end, after a few more years, it won't matter anymore. What's done is done. What's sad is vocal minority won with no discussion other than, "OK, we just need to end this now."

 

I really do not remember the debate, blow for blow, but it seems like it was a small minority om both sides and the vast majority that just didn't care one way or another. And in this country when we can either angry/offend by doing something or anger/offend by not doing something, we tend to take the don't do it approach.

 

But I do agree, it was a small minority that actually cared, either way.