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[Harry Chappas]

I actually agree with some of your points, but think for a second about part of the long term impact here. If you make the pension system a lot less "special" for teachers, firefighters, cops, etc., you will have a much harder time recruiting for those jobs. You will either get lower quality, or have to increase pay or other benefits (401k match is a good start), or both. That means higher costs of public service and/or lower quality results. I'm actually OK with paying a little more in taxes for those folks to be of higher quality, but many people won't be. A choice has to be made.

 

That was the case 50 years ago when the private sector paid more than the public sector. That is no longer the case. Government jobs are secured positions for the most part. Hiring may be cut back but layoffs are mostly nonexistant. The fact a person can retire at 50 and collect in some cases 100% of their average final 5 years of employment is disgusting...thereby they than can go get another government job because of the connections they have made working for 20 years in government and then get another pension after putting in, this time, 10 years.

 

There is no guarantee you are getting higher quality people.

[NorthSideSox72]

That was the case 50 years ago when the private sector paid more than the public sector. That is no longer the case. Government jobs are secured positions for the most part. Hiring may be cut back but layoffs are mostly nonexistant. The fact a person can retire at 50 and collect in some cases 100% of their average final 5 years of employment is disgusting...thereby they than can go get another government job because of the connections they have made working for 20 years in government and then get another pension after putting in, this time, 10 years.

 

There is no guarantee you are getting higher quality people.

I think you just made my case for me. Without the ridiculous pensions, the salary compensation of these folks will look much lower in the long run (full career) than those in the private sector. Teachers in CPS might make $25k or $30k a year to start, which is a good place to start, but most never make more than say $40k or a little more. People with college educations almost always make more than that as their careers progress.

 

[Harry Chappas]

I think you just made my case for me. Without the ridiculous pensions, the salary compensation of these folks will look much lower in the long run (full career) than those in the private sector. Teachers in CPS might make $25k or $30k a year to start, which is a good place to start, but most never make more than say $40k or a little more. People with college educations almost always make more than that as their careers progress.

 

You can easily find the salary structure of a Chicago Public School Teacher simply go to cps-humanresources.org. The 52 week teacher, yes one that decides to work year round, 6 hours a day and not take the summers off starts off at well above $40K. It almost hard to find a teacher that makes less than $40K. Teachers are rewarded for going to school and continuing their education with guaranteed raises. Nowhere in the private sector is there such a guarantee. If the education system in America worked, I would be all for it. The systems sucks and we continue to fund the hell out of it. It is also why we in Illinois will never see the federal tax break for this year....

 

Chicago Firemen can make well over $80K as this is essentially a part-time job. Being hired for this job is akin to winning the lottery, I understand there are risks involved. These are risks that make that job rewarding on many fronts.

 

By they way, these pensions have provided nicely for many relatives of mine.

[Balta1701]

You can easily find the salary structure of a Chicago Public School Teacher simply go to cps-humanresources.org. The 52 week teacher, yes one that decides to work year round, 6 hours a day and not take the summers off starts off at well above $40K. It almost hard to find a teacher that makes less than $40K. Teachers are rewarded for going to school and continuing their education with guaranteed raises. Nowhere in the private sector is there such a guarantee. If the education system in America worked, I would be all for it. The systems sucks and we continue to fund the hell out of it. It is also why we in Illinois will never see the federal tax break for this year....

 

Chicago Firemen can make well over $80K as this is essentially a part-time job. Being hired for this job is akin to winning the lottery, I understand there are risks involved. These are risks that make that job rewarding on many fronts.

 

By they way, these pensions have provided nicely for many relatives of mine.

You're simply not going to get very far arguing that teachers and firefighters are vastly overpaid.

[Harry Chappas]

You're simply not going to get very far arguing that teachers and firefighters are vastly overpaid.

 

Where did I ever say they were vastly overpaid? I was pointing out the fact that pensions are literally killing state economics. The fact someone can work for 20 years and retire making 100% of the salary they were making after working for 15 years is not a good system. Look at the link below and tell me that these are not good paying jobs which will allow you to retire at 55 years of age and then let me know what I am missing. Teachers with 20 years of experience can make roughly $80K. That is not grossly overpaid but not bad for 8 months of work which also covers you for therest of your life when you retire.....and I know that CPS is not an ideal workplace but the suburbs are worse as far as the salaries go. The teachers union in the state of Illinois are out of control and have been for years. School districts pick up 95 to 100% of the benefit cost in certain districts....who pays for this, not the district that is negotiating the contract...at least they are not covering all of it.

 

http://www.cps-humanresources.org/Employee...eachers38.6.pdf

Edited January 10, 2011 by Harry Chappas

[Balta1701]

Where did I ever say they were vastly overpaid? I was pointing out the fact that pensions are literally killing state economics. The fact someone can work for 20 years and retire making 100% of the salary they were making after working for 15 years is not a good system. Look at the link below and tell me that these are not good paying jobs which will allow you to retire at 55 years of age and then let me know what I am missing. Teachers with 20 years of experience can make roughly $80K. That is not grossly overpaid but not bad for 8 months of work which also covers you for therest of your life when you retire.....and I know that CPS is not an ideal workplace but the suburbs are worse as far as the salaries go. The teachers union in the state of Illinois are out of control and have been for years. School districts pick up 95 to 100% of the benefit cost in certain districts....who pays for this, not the district that is negotiating the contract...at least they are not covering all of it.

 

http://www.cps-humanresources.org/Employee...eachers38.6.pdf

Everything after the first line of your post is an argument that teachers and firefighters are vastly overpaid. And I still continue to disagree.

[Y2HH]

Everything after the first line of your post is an argument that teachers and firefighters are vastly overpaid. And I still continue to disagree.

 

I agree unless Balta is a teacher or firefighter, if he is, then they're overpaid.

[StrangeSox]

What teacher works 6 hours a day?

[NorthSideSox72]

Where did I ever say they were vastly overpaid? I was pointing out the fact that pensions are literally killing state economics. The fact someone can work for 20 years and retire making 100% of the salary they were making after working for 15 years is not a good system. Look at the link below and tell me that these are not good paying jobs which will allow you to retire at 55 years of age and then let me know what I am missing. Teachers with 20 years of experience can make roughly $80K. That is not grossly overpaid but not bad for 8 months of work which also covers you for therest of your life when you retire.....and I know that CPS is not an ideal workplace but the suburbs are worse as far as the salaries go. The teachers union in the state of Illinois are out of control and have been for years. School districts pick up 95 to 100% of the benefit cost in certain districts....who pays for this, not the district that is negotiating the contract...at least they are not covering all of it.

 

http://www.cps-humanresources.org/Employee...eachers38.6.pdf

 

No one disagrees that the pension system is a problem. And as I said, I agree its a big problem. I was simply pointing out the plain reality that for ANY job, if you make a significant dent in the benefits provided, you WILL either have lower quality overall or have to up the ante in some other area. That is not specific to the public sector either, its just the way jobs work.

 

What teacher works 6 hours a day?

None that I have ever met. Typical high school teachers work significantly more than 40 hours a week and usually have work at home as well.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Well I've been offline for a while, but I figure I'll go back to putting out the daily morning markets highlights, NSS style...

 

9am: Job Openings and Labor Turnover reports for Noveber

 

Pre-market bias is positive on some better than expected results in Euro debt auctions for Greece and Italy.

 

[Chisoxfn]

You're simply not going to get very far arguing that teachers and firefighters are vastly overpaid.

At least in California and I have a few friends that took this path, but Firefighters make an incredibly good living. It is why it is one of the more difficult careers to get into in the area.

 

The salaries are good, hours are good, and benefits are amazing. A firefighter will never be rich, but they won't be poor either.

 

However, they do some great things for society as do police officers. Where I am, officers get paid very well as well. Again, not rich, but not poor, but not as much as firefighters.

 

I'm only speaking of how stuff works in the county I live in as well as LA as I have a couple firefighter friends and a couple cop friends.

[Balta1701]

At least in California and I have a few friends that took this path, but Firefighters make an incredibly good living. It is why it is one of the more difficult careers to get into in the area.

 

The salaries are good, hours are good, and benefits are amazing. A firefighter will never be rich, but they won't be poor either.

 

However, they do some great things for society as do police officers. Where I am, officers get paid very well as well. Again, not rich, but not poor, but not as much as firefighters.

 

I'm only speaking of how stuff works in the county I live in as well as LA as I have a couple firefighter friends and a couple cop friends.

You're sorta dancing around the issue so I'll ask it more specifically...Do you think they're overpaid?

[Chisoxfn]

You're sorta dancing around the issue so I'll ask it more specifically...Do you think they're overpaid?

I think they are well paid. Nowhere do I say they are overpaid. I just think they have very good jobs, but they did what was necessary to get those jobs. It isn't like anyone can just become a firefighter or even a copy anymore. You typically need schooling (after high school) and have to be very good to eventually make it. And they provide a great public service, imo.

 

And I'll point out, I've in the past looked at government gigs. If I took the job, I would be reducing my compensation now, however, part of why I'd even consider taking the job is the long-term benefits and job security that go into it. So If I left my industry and took another job for those reasons only to have that pulled out from under me, I completely understand why someone would be pissed.

 

It is a delicate issue to me. My key is there are jobs out there that people don't do jack, but you know what, those jobs exist to an extent in both public and private business.

 

Note: I won't even get to teachers. In California the teachers union is awful and has completely hindered good teachers from being rewarded and is to an extent keeping a whole lot of potential new teachers without jobs. I must know at least 10 people who have graduated and earned there credentials between 2 and 4 years ago that still can't do anything but sub (and you get paid jack to sub).

[iamshack]

You're sorta dancing around the issue so I'll ask it more specifically...Do you think they're overpaid?

My issue with firemen is that there is a list thousands of people long in Chicago to become one. I'd say they are overpaid. Many of them also have second jobs because of the schedule they work.

 

And let me just add, I'm not saying it isn't an honorable profession because they are overpaid. I'm just saying they are overpaid.

[StrangeSox]

My issue with firemen is that there is a list thousands of people long in Chicago to become one. I'd say they are overpaid. Many of them also have second jobs because of the schedule they work.

 

And let me just add, I'm not saying it isn't an honorable profession because they are overpaid. I'm just saying they are overpaid.

 

It took my Uncle something like 20 years to get in.

[Harry Chappas]

Let me be clear. I never once said that anyone was overpaid I think they are getting a fair wage. The issue I am having is that they can retire, mostly as teachers, at 55 if not younger and be making 100% of what they were making at 50.

 

My point was also to point out that the salary structure in CPS is nothing to cry poor about and the schools are abysmal unless they are charter or magnet schools.

 

If teachers continue on with their education and become an adminsistrator $100K to $150K is easily attainable.

 

It is not the salaries of the public sector that is the problem it is the benefits. A teacher can pay less than $100/month for top flight health insurance or be given the cost if they elect not to take the coverage, approximately $12,000 a year.

 

Both of my parents benefit from this it is great for them but it is causing the government to go broke.

 

Have you ever heard of a teacher quitting the profession and moving on to something other than teaching?

[Balta1701]

Let me be clear. I never once said that anyone was overpaid I think they are getting a fair wage. The issue I am having is that they can retire, mostly as teachers, at 55 if not younger and be making 100% of what they were making at 50.

 

My point was also to point out that the salary structure in CPS is nothing to cry poor about and the schools are abysmal unless they are charter or magnet schools.

 

If teachers continue on with their education and become an adminsistrator $100K to $150K is easily attainable.

 

It is not the salaries of the public sector that is the problem it is the benefits. A teacher can pay less than $100/month for top flight health insurance or be given the cost if they elect not to take the coverage, approximately $12,000 a year.

 

Both of my parents benefit from this it is great for them but it is causing the government to go broke.

 

Have you ever heard of a teacher quitting the profession and moving on to something other than teaching?

You're splitting hairs here, and they're very tiny hairs too. You think they're getting a fair wage...but they're getting too much in benefits. You're saying "Teachers are overpaid but they're overpaid on their benefits".

[Harry Chappas]

You're splitting hairs here, and they're very tiny hairs too. You think they're getting a fair wage...but they're getting too much in benefits. You're saying "Teachers are overpaid but they're overpaid on their benefits".

 

Yes the benefits are where I think it is debatable that they are overpaid. The initial point was the salary of teachers and my thoughts that they were not underpaid.

 

Do you feel the ability to retire at age 55 with an income of 80% of your average last five years salary with an annual increase of 5% is a sound practice?

 

When the private sector ended this practice, the public sector became much more attractive for specialized employees, most notably teachers.

 

On the administrative side of the governement there are much more egregious instances of overspending but there are not as many instances nor is the dollar amount that great.

 

I am not saying that the lady working at the DMV has a sweet ass set-up.

[Balta1701]

Yes the benefits are where I think it is debatable that they are overpaid. The initial point was the salary of teachers and my thoughts that they were not underpaid.

 

Do you feel the ability to retire at age 55 with an income of 80% of your average last five years salary with an annual increase of 5% is a sound practice?

 

When the private sector ended this practice, the public sector became much more attractive for specialized employees, most notably teachers.

 

On the administrative side of the governement there are much more egregious instances of overspending but there are not as many instances nor is the dollar amount that great.

 

I am not saying that the lady working at the DMV has a sweet ass set-up.

Frankly, yes, I think that in a number of positions, retirement at age 55 is a sound practice. Especially things like police and firefighting, where your body is legitimately being taxed regularly to the point that you're significantly damaging it. 30 years of smoke inhalation and carrying 80 lbs of equipment up stairs is going to put an enormous strain on most bodies. Ditto getting shot at. Ditto having to deal with 8 year olds. In fact, in some of these cases...if they don't retire, they're much less useful to their position than if they stayed on. And if they tried to find other work, they wouldn't be able to...not only because they have no experience at other positions, but because they have the other physical issues to deal with.

[Harry Chappas]

Frankly, yes, I think that in a number of positions, retirement at age 55 is a sound practice. Especially things like police and firefighting, where your body is legitimately being taxed regularly to the point that you're significantly damaging it. 30 years of smoke inhalation and carrying 80 lbs of equipment up stairs is going to put an enormous strain on most bodies. Ditto getting shot at. Ditto having to deal with 8 year olds. In fact, in some of these cases...if they don't retire, they're much less useful to their position than if they stayed on. And if they tried to find other work, they wouldn't be able to...not only because they have no experience at other positions, but because they have the other physical issues to deal with.

 

I agree on the fire and police side of things. I also believe that unions are necessary in certain fields of work, but education is not one of them. I do not hate the teaching profession nor do I despise all teachers, I just feel that it is a profession that has been destroyed by their union. The trumpeting of how underpaid they are is a fallacy.

 

I will end my point with my thought that if the teaching profession was so stressful, why do few people leave it once they have gotten in?

[Balta1701]

I agree on the fire and police side of things. I also believe that unions are necessary in certain fields of work, but education is not one of them. I do not hate the teaching profession nor do I despise all teachers, I just feel that it is a profession that has been destroyed by their union. The trumpeting of how underpaid they are is a fallacy.

 

I will end my point with my thought that if the teaching profession was so stressful, why do few people leave it once they have gotten in?

Actually, there is quite a bit of turnover, especially amongst teachers who just enter the profession. A brief bit of Googling suggests that state-level turnover rates for teachers in their first 5 years typically run ~50%, and those are the years when education systems are spending large sums of money to train and acclimate those teachers.

 

If you poll teachers who leave, reason #1 why they got out of the profession is money, reason #2 is the working environment (which is often a code for how little they're paid given the hours they have to spend), reason #3 is the stress of the job.

 

Those turnover rates in fact fall quite a bit once teachers reach the levels where they become eligible for higher pension levels.

[Cknolls]

While driving home from church on Sunday I had the pleasure of driving behind a garbage truck. Mind you this is 10:05 a.m. The aforementioned truck tried pulling into three forest preservre entrances, but lo and behold they were closed. So said truck turns south onto Will-Cook road and in passing I notice the truck says Cook County Forest Preservre District on its doors. Anyone want to guess how many hard-working thieves, I mean stooges were in the truck? Three. Very good use of county rersources on a SUNDAY at what double time? They probably had to pick up after all the picnics in the preserves on Saturday. f***ing Joke.

[StrangeSox]

Actually, there is quite a bit of turnover, especially amongst teachers who just enter the profession. A brief bit of Googling suggests that state-level turnover rates for teachers in their first 5 years typically run ~50%, and those are the years when education systems are spending large sums of money to train and acclimate those teachers.

 

There's a reason there's a lot of turnover in the first five years. Tenure is usually given at 4 years, I think. So, if the school is reticent to hand out tenure for whatever reason, they can dump the teacher just short of it and hire on some new teachers. At least, that's what I've heard anecdotally from several teachers in the area.

 

And, honestly, something is broken with the tenure system when it takes a couple of years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to remove a teacher like this. Flagrant violations of policy and student rights, insubordination and physically harming students and it still took forever.

[Balta1701]

There's a reason there's a lot of turnover in the first five years. Tenure is usually given at 4 years, I think. So, if the school is reticent to hand out tenure for whatever reason, they can dump the teacher just short of it and hire on some new teachers. At least, that's what I've heard anecdotally from several teachers in the area.

 

And, honestly, something is broken with the tenure system when it takes a couple of years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to remove a teacher like this. Flagrant violations of policy and student rights, insubordination and physically harming students and it still took forever.

I'm very iffy on the tenure system...yeah, it's broken, yeah it causes problems the way it is...but there's actually a reason why this system exists...because having it be simple to fire a teacher causes problems on its own...a couple parents unhappy with the way a teacher is grading, a personality conflict between a teacher and an administrator, the wrong class of students coming through. The tenure system grew up after the public school system grew up because it wound up being needed.

[StrangeSox]

Oh I know, I'm not opposed to tenure, I just think it needs some reform. But I really don't know too much about it, other than a handful of glaring examples of it being broken.