Financial News

[mr_genius]

fuel efficient autos are here to stay. there are some nice hybrids out there now and the price on these cars should decrease over time. with gas price increases, it becomes a wise financial move if nothing else.

[Jenksismyhero]

Hopefully this has a good explanation:

 

http://i.green.autoblog.com/2011/03/01/gm-...issan-67-leafs/

 

[Balta1701]

Hopefully this has a good explanation:

 

http://i.green.autoblog.com/2011/03/01/gm-...issan-67-leafs/

Is ramping up production and deliveries still a problem?

Yes.

[NorthSideSox72]

Edmunds has a "Top 10" break-even hybrids and diesels list.

 

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/top-10/...s-for-2011.html

 

Interesting that so many luxury cars have such short paypack periods, I wasn't expecting that.

 

Also, there ARE still tax credits for alt vehicles, because the Volt and Leaf are eligible. I am not sure if traditional hybrids are still eligible, they used to work on a concept of number of vehicles manufactured per model.

 

 

fuel efficient autos are here to stay. there are some nice hybrids out there now and the price on these cars should decrease over time. with gas price increases, it becomes a wise financial move if nothing else.

 

No doubt, the trend will continue. Every year there are more models available, and sales go up in large % jumps. Just a matter of time before they become commonplace.

 

[Balta1701]

OMG, the overs win one!!!!

U.S. economy added 192,000 jobs in February and the unemployment rate dropped slightly to 8.9%, government says.

[StrangeSox]

Interesting that so many luxury cars have such short paypack periods, I wasn't expecting that.

 

Also, there ARE still tax credits for alt vehicles, because the Volt and Leaf are eligible. I am not sure if traditional hybrids are still eligible, they used to work on a concept of number of vehicles manufactured per model.

 

For non plug-in cars, the tax credits expired on December 31st. Most had run out by then due to numbers sold, anyway.

[NorthSideSox72]

New jobs number comes in at 192k, 222k from the private sector, and UE actually goes down again to 8.9%. All numbers easily beat expectations. Also, January number revised upward from 36k to 63k. Big day.

 

This after the most recent UE benefits number going down to 368k, well below expecations of 400k, and lowest in 2.5 years. Prior week revised down to 388k instead of 391k. 4 week moving average now 388.5k, solidly below the 425k baddie mark, below 400k, and approaching the 375k large scale growth number.

 

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Yes.

 

You might be right, but I find that hard to believe. If Chevy is going to make a serious effort, they would have made more than 800 or whatever Volts. I think the bigger problem is that the infrastructure is not there yet to support these vehicles. It's slowing getting there, but so far downtown i've only seen one charging station, and it's stuck in a 10 dollar an hour parking garage.

 

Getting back to the financial aspect of the thread, anyone read any studies about the cost of these electric vehicles? Obviously you're not paying gas, but what's the cost in electricity you're going to use to charge the car? How much do those charging stations cost (and how long does it take?) I feel like in this respect the industry really put the cart before the horse.

[NorthSideSox72]

You might be right, but I find that hard to believe. If Chevy is going to make a serious effort, they would have made more than 800 or whatever Volts. I think the bigger problem is that the infrastructure is not there yet to support these vehicles. It's slowing getting there, but so far downtown i've only seen one charging station, and it's stuck in a 10 dollar an hour parking garage.

 

Getting back to the financial aspect of the thread, anyone read any studies about the cost of these electric vehicles? Obviously you're not paying gas, but what's the cost in electricity you're going to use to charge the car? How much do those charging stations cost (and how long does it take?) I feel like in this respect the industry really put the cart before the horse.

This is not a problem of infrastructure for the Volt. You can plug it in at home with a normal outlet or a faster one, and its a hybrid engine after the 40 miles of electric-only kick out. The only reason infrastructure is an issue for the Volt is on long distance trips, like road trips of multiple hours, which are rare for most people. Now for all-electrics like the Leaf and the Tesla cars, yes, its an infrastructure problem.

 

The research you are asking for has been done. The companies publish information about charging times, and mileage ratings used typical electricity rates to compare. Not sure how you see this as cart before the horse, and furthermore, if you had the infrastructure with no cars, everyone would complain it was a waste of money. They need to grow together, and they are.

 

[StrangeSox]

Who's going to build charging infrastructure before there's any market for the use? It's not like a whole bunch of gas stations were built before people started manufacturing cars.

 

The Volt battery uses 10.4 kW-h. I don't have my Com Ed bill in front of me, but I want to say it's something like $0.09/kW-h, or about $0.94/day to charge the Volt. You don't need a charging station (really it's just 240V service, I think). You can charge on 110V, but it'll take 10 hours or so. 220V will charge much faster, and 480V even faster than that.

 

Think of it like people who buy 1st-gen Apple products or who paid $800 to get Blue-ray when it first came out--early adopters of technology are willing to pay a premium to be first.

[Balta1701]

Getting back to the financial aspect of the thread, anyone read any studies about the cost of these electric vehicles? Obviously you're not paying gas, but what's the cost in electricity you're going to use to charge the car? How much do those charging stations cost (and how long does it take?) I feel like in this respect the industry really put the cart before the horse.

The in-house 240 V charging stations which can charge the Volt in about 3 hours and the Leaf in about 8 hours cost on the order of $1000-2000 if you need to have them fully installed. If you happen to already have 240 V wiring available near your garage, for example, to run your dishwasher, the price goes down a lot.

 

The Leaf also comes with a cable that can plug into a standard 120 V outlet, but it takes about 18 hours for a full charge. However, if you don't deplete the battery fully, this will work just fine. I could run this from my outlet right now and use a Leaf as my standard transportation and this cable would be able to charge my battery fully every day.

 

The 480V, 30 minute Leaf fast chargers are considerably more expensive and are only available to commercial operators. However, governments and private businesses are starting to buy these (and they'll clearly buy more as more EV's get on the road). The reason to buy one is...you've got me at your shop for a guaranteed 30 minutes. I'm at your McDonalds, or your Kroger, or your Truck Stop, for 30 minutes.

 

With current electricity rates, you're effectively paying somewhere in the range of $.50 to $1.00 a gallon, depending on how you drive. Could be less if you owned your own solar panels or wind generator as well. The Leaf's eco-mode would probably cut that even farther.

[StrangeSox]

With current electricity rates, you're effectively paying somewhere in the range of $.50 to $1.00 a gallon, depending on how you drive. Could be less if you owned your own solar panels or wind generator as well. The Leaf's eco-mode would probably cut that even farther.

 

Would love to be in that position one day.

[Jenksismyhero]

This is not a problem of infrastructure for the Volt. You can plug it in at home with a normal outlet or a faster one, and its a hybrid engine after the 40 miles of electric-only kick out. The only reason infrastructure is an issue for the Volt is on long distance trips, like road trips of multiple hours, which are rare for most people. Now for all-electrics like the Leaf and the Tesla cars, yes, its an infrastructure problem.

 

The research you are asking for has been done. The companies publish information about charging times, and mileage ratings used typical electricity rates to compare. Not sure how you see this as cart before the horse, and furthermore, if you had the infrastructure with no cars, everyone would complain it was a waste of money. They need to grow together, and they are.

 

I assumed the Volt was like the other electric cars that required a station, not just a typical outlet. But you still need some sort of infrastructure in place or people won't by the car, waste of money or not. Why would I buy one of these cars if I couldn't re-power it except at home? It's not like there's a random outlet somewhere in the city I can plug my car into.

[Jenksismyhero]

The in-house 240 V charging stations which can charge the Volt in about 3 hours and the Leaf in about 8 hours cost on the order of $1000-2000 if you need to have them fully installed. If you happen to already have 240 V wiring available near your garage, for example, to run your dishwasher, the price goes down a lot.

 

The Leaf also comes with a cable that can plug into a standard 120 V outlet, but it takes about 18 hours for a full charge. However, if you don't deplete the battery fully, this will work just fine. I could run this from my outlet right now and use a Leaf as my standard transportation and this cable would be able to charge my battery fully every day.

 

The 480V, 30 minute Leaf fast chargers are considerably more expensive and are only available to commercial operators. However, governments and private businesses are starting to buy these (and they'll clearly buy more as more EV's get on the road). The reason to buy one is...you've got me at your shop for a guaranteed 30 minutes. I'm at your McDonalds, or your Kroger, or your Truck Stop, for 30 minutes.

 

With current electricity rates, you're effectively paying somewhere in the range of $.50 to $1.00 a gallon, depending on how you drive. Could be less if you owned your own solar panels or wind generator as well. The Leaf's eco-mode would probably cut that even farther.

 

Yeah these were the numbers I was looking for. I assumed it would be a lot less, but .50-1.00 would be great. Guess we'll see what happens. I'm still surprised that they only sold that amount in 2 months.

[Y2HH]

Yeah these were the numbers I was looking for. I assumed it would be a lot less, but .50-1.00 would be great. Guess we'll see what happens. I'm still surprised that they only sold that amount in 2 months.

 

So what happens when you have to replace all those batteries that lose the ability to hold charge over time?

 

[Jenksismyhero]

So what happens when you have to replace all those batteries that lose the ability to hold charge over time?

 

Better question for these other guys. I have no idea. I assume you could just replace them like you would an engine part?

[StrangeSox]

I assumed the Volt was like the other electric cars that required a station, not just a typical outlet.

 

You can charge any of them (Leaf, Volt, Tesla) with a standard 110V/15A outlet.

 

But you still need some sort of infrastructure in place or people won't by the car, waste of money or not. Why would I buy one of these cars if I couldn't re-power it except at home? It's not like there's a random outlet somewhere in the city I can plug my car into.

 

That infrastructure is being built and will expand as the user base expands.

 

We didn't have nation-wide networks of cell phone towers before people started buying cell phones. We didn't have gas stations every 1/2 mile before people started buying cars. The infrastructure and the user base will grow in a symbiotic manner. That's the natural technology life cycle. We're in the Early Adopter phase. The EV1 and the Tesla would have been "innovators" phase.

 

 

 

 

[Y2HH]

Better question for these other guys. I have no idea. I assume you could just replace them like you would an engine part?

 

Yea, but battery's aren't cheap!

 

I have no idea either, I was just curious...since I work in the tech field and I know rechargeable (even the BEST rechargeables) have VERY finite recharge numbers...and if you're recharging your car everyday, I don't see those lasting more than 3 years without needing full replacements. Not to mention, the amount of power they can store dwindles on every charge.

 

And batteries are one of the worst pollutants there is...full of rare earth materials, too, which cannot just be dismissed. Some of the elements in batteries are in less supply than oil is now. Wonder what would happen when a lot of people start needing such batteries, my bet would be batteries rise in price rather dramatically.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

Better question for these other guys. I have no idea. I assume you could just replace them like you would an engine part?

 

The batteries on the Volt are warrantied for 8 years/100k miles. They are replaceable, but not cheap. The Tesla battery pack is over $10k I think.

 

Again, looking at technology lifecycles, the costs will continue to come down. Blue-Ray players were $800 a few years ago.

[Y2HH]

The batteries on the Volt are warrantied for 8 years/100k miles. They are replaceable, but not cheap. The Tesla battery pack is over $10k I think.

 

Again, looking at technology lifecycles, the costs will continue to come down. Blue-Ray players were $800 a few years ago.

 

Warranties cover the batteries from breaking...not maintaining charge...so they can warranty them for 900 years...but after 2 years, if they can't hold a charge, they aren't going to replace them for free...

 

That's a sneaky, and almost useless warranty.

 

That's like the current warranty you have on your breaks. If they "break", they'll fix them...if you wear them out, you get to pay.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Y2HH

[Jenksismyhero]

You can charge any of them (Leaf, Volt, Tesla) with a standard 110V/15A outlet.

 

 

 

That infrastructure is being built and will expand as the user base expands.

 

We didn't have nation-wide networks of cell phone towers before people started buying cell phones. We didn't have gas stations every 1/2 mile before people started buying cars. The infrastructure and the user base will grow in a symbiotic manner. That's the natural technology life cycle. We're in the Early Adopter phase. The EV1 and the Tesla would have been "innovators" phase.

 

 

Right, my only point is that I don't think the infrastructure is there yet to push demand much higher. Though I'd also add that investing in a 40k car is a little different than a cell phone (even the most expensive ones back in the day). You're asking people to invest that much money in a piece of technology that transports them over several miles. I wouldn't buy one without knowing that there are enough places in and around the city to recharge if I get stuck.

[StrangeSox]

Yea, but battery's aren't cheap!

 

I have no idea either, I was just curious...since I work in the tech field and I know rechargeable (even the BEST rechargeable) have VERY finite numbers...and if you're recharging your car everyday, I don't see those lasting more than 3 years without needing full replacements.

 

They intentionally programmed the car to use only a limited range of the battery. It's something like 14 kW-h, but you only use 10.4 kW-h. That's done to prolong the life. They've warrantied them for 8 years/100k, so I'm pretty sure GM anticipates them lasting more than 3 years.

 

And batteries are one of the worst pollutants there is...full of rare earth materials, too, which cannot just be dismissed.

 

Lithium battery recycling programs started a couple of years ago. It is a potential concern though.

 

Some of the elements in batteries are in less supply than oil is now. Wonder what would happen when a lot of people start needing such batteries, my bet would be batteries rise in price rather dramatically.

 

Could be, but more and more lithium sources are being explored now because there's market demand.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/02/11/...11?pageNumber=2

 

People were worried about peak oil in the early 20th century.

[StrangeSox]

Right, my only point is that I don't think the infrastructure is there yet to push demand much higher. Though I'd also add that investing in a 40k car is a little different than a cell phone (even the most expensive ones back in the day). You're asking people to invest that much money in a piece of technology that transports them over several miles. I wouldn't buy one without knowing that there are enough places in and around the city to recharge if I get stuck.

 

Well, that's precisely why Chevy went the route they did with the Volt. You can always use the gasoline engine.

 

Anyway, more and more places are adding charging stations, so it'll just be easier and easier. Like any early adopters to technology, you face hurdles that people don't the road won't.

 

And you're right to point out that the costs are significantly different here.

[StrangeSox]

Warranties cover the batteries from breaking...not maintaining charge...so they can warranty them for 900 years...but after 2 years, if they can't hold a charge, they aren't going to replace them for free...

 

That's a sneaky, and almost useless warranty.

 

Proof of this? Their warranty plan just says "warrantable repairs" but doesn't list this out. If this ends up being true and GM essentially f***s over all Volt customers, it would be very harmful to their brand and any future in that market. Doesn't seem likely imo.

 

That's like the current warranty you have on your breaks. If they "break", they'll fix them...if you wear them out, you get to pay.

 

Brakes are consumable items designed to wear down. That's the physical mechanism of how they stop your car. That is a poor comparison.

 

[Y2HH]

Proof of this? Their warranty plan just says "warrantable repairs" but doesn't list this out. If this ends up being true and GM essentially f***s over all Volt customers, it would be very harmful to their brand and any future in that market. Doesn't seem likely imo.

 

 

 

Brakes are consumable items designed to wear down. That's the physical mechanism of how they stop your car. That is a poor comparison.

 

Proof of what?

 

Warranties never cover use/wear and tear. They cover breakage or malfunction. I don't think I need proof of anything in this case...warranties have never worked that way.

 

Batteries are ALSO a consumable device which wear down. As it stands now, car companies don't replace your car battery under warranty now, either. I doubt they'd suddenly do it for these cars. No company does, including the one in your phone, laptop, etc. Batteries that no longer hold charge are user replaced, not manufacturer.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Y2HH