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[StrangeSox]

If you're correct, that these batteries have no realistic chance of lasting past 3 years, GM is going to be in for a world of PR hurt in 2013. It would make their 8 year/100k mile warranty claims bad-faith claims at least in the eyes of the public if not legally. These are not comparable to a laptop or cellphone battery because of the costs involved and what the warranty implies. Most people expect batteries to lose charge capacity over time. People spending $32k on a car with a 8 year/100k warranty on the batteries wouldn't have the expectation that their batteries won't work in less than half the warranty years.

 

Think of tire warranties. Yeah, they're expected to wear down. But if your 60k tires wear out in 10k from normal use, they'll replace them.

[Jenksismyhero]

If you're correct, that these batteries have no realistic chance of lasting past 3 years, GM is going to be in for a world of PR hurt in 2013. It would make their 8 year/100k mile warranty claims bad-faith claims at least in the eyes of the public if not legally. These are not comparable to a laptop or cellphone battery because of the costs involved and what the warranty implies. Most people expect batteries to lose charge capacity over time. People spending $32k on a car with a 8 year/100k warranty on the batteries wouldn't have the expectation that their batteries won't work in less than half the warranty years.

 

Think of tire warranties. Yeah, they're expected to wear down. But if your 60k tires wear out in 10k from normal use, they'll replace them.

 

I'd argue that's a defect though, which would be covered.

[Y2HH]

I'd argue that's a defect though, which would be covered.

 

Right, that would be a defect.

 

I'd have to see the manufacturers battery ratings...for example, if they claim the batteries will maintain 70% of full charge after 450 recharges, then that's what they should maintain...if it's less than that, or considerably less than that, they would have to replace them under warranty.

[StrangeSox]

The point is that even consumable items can come with limited warranties regarding expected lifetime.

 

I really don't think GM is dumb enough to think they can produce a bunch of cars that will have dead $10k batteries in less than three years and get away with claiming "well its not covered by the warranty!" without massive PR and probably legal problems. Maybe the technology going into $10k battery packs and the systems they use to run them aren't comparable to $100 phone or laptop batteries.

[Y2HH]

The point is that even consumable items can come with limited warranties regarding expected lifetime.

 

I really don't think GM is dumb enough to think they can produce a bunch of cars that will have dead $10k batteries in less than three years and get away with claiming "well its not covered by the warranty!" without massive PR and probably legal problems. Maybe the technology going into $10k battery packs and the systems they use to run them aren't comparable to $100 phone or laptop batteries.

 

They wouldn't be "dead", they'd simply last for a shorter period of time.

 

Example: Your laptop used to last 7 hours, now it lasts 2 after 3 years of use, that's not a defect, that simply a shortfall of our current battery technology, which, believe me, they're working on.

[StrangeSox]

STill looking for Volt specifics, but here's a Toshiba Li-ion battery that has 6000 charge cycles to 82% capacity. Charging every night, that's over 16 years.

 

http://www.toshiba.com/ind/data/tag_files/...ochure_5383.pdf

[Y2HH]

Battery tech is an upcoming BOOM industry. What we have now, across the board, from car batteries, to computer batteries are ALL in their infancy. When someone produces a rechargeable that maintains full charge for 10 years, and can hold 10x more power than the current batteries we have now...we'll start moving in the right direction.

 

It'd be nice to only charge a phone once a week even under heavy use!

[Y2HH]

STill looking for Volt specifics, but here's a Toshiba Li-ion battery that has 6000 charge cycles to 82% capacity. Charging every night, that's over 16 years.

 

http://www.toshiba.com/ind/data/tag_files/...ochure_5383.pdf

 

Many battery companies make such outlandish claims, but I've yet to see one in real use...

 

I've not ever seen one of these batteries powering a single device...if they're so good, where are they? Not buying it.

 

Edit: Not available yet, but coming soon! No idea what the cost will be, though. Then again, I've heard claims such as this for going on 5 years now, at this point, I'd like to start seeing them in real world use and available for purchase.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Y2HH

[NorthSideSox72]

I assumed the Volt was like the other electric cars that required a station, not just a typical outlet. But you still need some sort of infrastructure in place or people won't by the car, waste of money or not. Why would I buy one of these cars if I couldn't re-power it except at home? It's not like there's a random outlet somewhere in the city I can plug my car into.

 

I think you are still misunderstanding something here... the Volt is NOT an all-electric car. Its a plug-in hybrid. It runs on electric only for 40-ish miles, then becomes a pretty efficient hybrid just like any other.

 

Warranties cover the batteries from breaking...not maintaining charge...so they can warranty them for 900 years...but after 2 years, if they can't hold a charge, they aren't going to replace them for free...

 

That's a sneaky, and almost useless warranty.

 

That's like the current warranty you have on your breaks. If they "break", they'll fix them...if you wear them out, you get to pay.

 

You are not correct here. In fact, the batteries are warrantied for 10 years on my car, I've read the battery warranty part because I had this fear, and it DOES include any significant loss of charging ability.

 

[StrangeSox]

..and if you're recharging your car everyday, I don't see those lasting more than 3 years without needing full replacements.

 

They wouldn't be "dead", they'd simply last for a shorter period of time.

 

Example: Your laptop used to last 7 hours, now it lasts 2 after 3 years of use, that's not a defect, that simply a shortfall of our current battery technology, which, believe me, they're working on.

 

That wasn't your original claim.

 

The charging systems for these batteries are much more sophisticated than your standard laptop or cell phone, which significantly helps battery longevity. Hell, my Makita power tools have similar charging techniques--the charger actively cools the battery and monitors battery levels such as heat to charge the batteries quickly while also prolonging life. They're rated for 2500 charge cycles, and those are just $100 batteries.

 

[Y2HH]

I think you are still misunderstanding something here... the Volt is NOT an all-electric car. Its a plug-in hybrid. It runs on electric only for 40-ish miles, then becomes a pretty efficient hybrid just like any other.

 

 

 

You are not correct here. In fact, the batteries are warrantied for 10 years on my car, I've read the battery warranty part because I had this fear, and it DOES include any significant loss of charging ability.

 

I AM correct here.

 

I already said it would include SIGNIFICANT loss of charging ability. That would mean the battery isn't working properly...however, they DO have a rating on them to lose X charge per cycle, and that's EXPECTED, and not warranted.

 

Example, if those batteries are supposed to maintain 70% charge after 500 recharges, then that's what they should do, if they fall short of that, they'd have to replace them. Otherwise it's just standard wear and tear, and like with all warranties, it wouldn't cover replacement.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Y2HH

[Y2HH]

That wasn't your original claim.

 

The charging systems for these batteries are much more sophisticated than your standard laptop or cell phone, which significantly helps battery longevity. Hell, my Makita power tools have similar charging techniques--the charger actively cools the battery and monitors battery levels such as heat to charge the batteries quickly while also prolonging life. They're rated for 2500 charge cycles, and those are just $100 batteries.

 

Yes, it was my original claim.

 

And I understand they have more complex charging techniques...it's called a f***ing alternator.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

You said they'd probably be effectively dead in three years. That would make their 8 year warranty a bad faith claim. It would be a huge black eye and suicide for at least this niche market. You're basing your comparison off of consumer electronics batteries with dumb charging systems.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Yes, it was my original claim.

 

And I understand they have more complex charging techniques...it's called a f***ing alternator.

 

Hmm, nope. Think you might want to educate yourself a little more on more advanced battery charging systems. It's a little bit more than an alternator with a voltage regulator tech circa early 20th century.

[Y2HH]

You said they'd probably be effectively dead in three years. That would make their 8 year warranty a bad faith claim. It would be a huge black eye and suicide for at least this niche market. You're basing your comparison off of consumer electronics batteries with dumb charging systems.

 

I never said they'd be effectively dead in three years.

[NorthSideSox72]

I AM correct here.

 

I already said it would include SIGNIFICANT loss of charging ability. That would mean the battery isn't working properly...however, they DO have a rating on them to lose X charge per cycle, and that's EXPECTED, and not warranted.

 

Example, if those batteries are supposed to maintain 70% charge after 500 recharges, then that's what they should do, if they fall short of that, they'd have to replace them. Otherwise it's just standard wear and tear, and like with all warranties, it wouldn't cover replacement.

Eh? OK to be clear here, I don't have a plug-in car, its a normal hybrid. Yes there are thresholds, but its not based on "cycles" because it can't be. Its based on certain things (charge level being one) falling below certain lines any time within the warranty period. And its a big number for charge level, I can't remember right now, but it was north of 80% for the full term.

 

Remember too, 10 years is longer than most engines last anyway, so there is nothing so awful about these warranties as you are making them out to be.

 

[Y2HH]

Hmm, nope. Think you might want to educate yourself a little more on more advanced battery charging systems. It's a little bit more than an alternator with a voltage regulator tech circa early 20th century.

 

Of course it's a little more than that, but the alternator is what keeps the batteries charged differently than a computer or cell phone battery.

 

Thank you for playing.

[NorthSideSox72]

Of course it's a little more than that, but the alternator is what keeps the batteries charged differently than a computer or cell phone battery.

 

Thank you for playing.

That's one particular difference, not the whole picture.

 

[StrangeSox]

I never said they'd be effectively dead in three years.

 

You said they'd need full replacement in 3 years. Why would you need to replace something if it isn't effectively dead/useless/no longer functional?

[Y2HH]

Eh? OK to be clear here, I don't have a plug-in car, its a normal hybrid. Yes there are thresholds, but its not based on "cycles" because it can't be. Its based on certain things (charge level being one) falling below certain lines any time within the warranty period. And its a big number for charge level, I can't remember right now, but it was north of 80% for the full term.

 

Remember too, 10 years is longer than most engines last anyway, so there is nothing so awful about these warranties as you are making them out to be.

 

No, I'm not saying the warranties are awful at all, I'm simply saying they will replace them if they fall below specified and expected losses...

 

What I said from the start, and it was twisted by a few of you, is that the warranty will replace the batteries no matter what...

 

I maintain that, no, it will not.

[Y2HH]

You said they'd need full replacement in 3 years. Why would you need to replace something if it isn't effectively dead/useless/no longer functional?

 

Not for nothing, but this is what I actually said.

 

I have no idea either, I was just curious...since I work in the tech field and I know rechargeable (even the BEST rechargeables) have VERY finite recharge numbers...and if you're recharging your car everyday, I don't see those lasting more than 3 years without needing full replacements. Not to mention, the amount of power they can store dwindles on every charge.

 

I NEVER said what I was saying was fact...as I went out of my way (see underlined) to outright say I did not know, and I was merely basing it on my experience over time with modern battery technology, including the battery in my Jeep right now. I even went as far as to say I was curious about the question I had posed.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

Of course it's a little more than that, but the alternator is what keeps the batteries charged differently than a computer or cell phone battery.

 

Thank you for playing.

 

Like I said, even my power tool batteries have chips in them now for this. Software monitoring of internal battery parameters to control charging rates is what charges the batteries differently and more effectively, not just "LOL it's on an alternator!!!".

 

Does it run it through an alternator when you plug it into the wall?

[Y2HH]

 

Like I said, even my power tool batteries have chips in them now for this. Software monitoring of internal battery parameters to control charging rates is what charges the batteries differently and more effectively, not just "LOL it's on an alternator!!!".

 

Does it run it through an alternator when you plug it into the wall?

 

Dumb question.

[StrangeSox]

Not for nothing, but this is what I actually said.

 

I have no idea either, I was just curious...since I work in the tech field and I know rechargeable (even the BEST rechargeables) have VERY finite recharge numbers...and if you're recharging your car everyday, I don't see those lasting more than 3 years without needing full replacements. Not to mention, the amount of power they can store dwindles on every charge.

 

I NEVER said what I was saying was fact...as I went out of my way (see underlined) to outright say I did not know, and I was merely basing it on my experience over time with modern battery technology, including the battery in my Jeep right now. I even went as far as to say I was curious about the question I had posed.

 

 

Sorry, I dropped the probably in the last previous reply. My point is that your speculation that the batteries would be effectively dead in 3 years is pretty baseless since it's not comparing similar technology. Comparing it to standard alternator charging of lead-acid batteries in a car? Consumer electronics batteries with different chemistry and dumb charging? That doesn't make sense.

[StrangeSox]

Dumb question.

 

What's the charging mechanism when you plug it into a wall?