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[Y2HH]

Sorry, I dropped the probably in the last previous reply. My point is that your speculation that the batteries would be effectively dead in 3 years is pretty baseless since it's not comparing similar technology. Comparing it to standard alternator charging of lead-acid batteries in a car? Consumer electronics batteries with different chemistry and dumb charging? That doesn't make sense.

 

It's why I posed the question.

 

Again.

 

I said I was CURIOUS about it and could only base what I know of batteries.

 

Sorry for posing a rather simple question and for being curious.

 

I'm unsure why you're jumping on me for this.

[StrangeSox]

I posted a rather simple answer to your postulation that the batteries will be dead in 3 years--your comparison was flawed.

 

You're also the one who claimed GM's warranty was "sneaky" and "almost useless" based off of a bad comparison. I'm unsure of why you jumped on GM based on limited knowledge of how the Volt and its battery system operates.

[Y2HH]

What's the charging mechanism when you plug it into a wall?

 

The alternator is what prevents car batteries from draining as fast as say a laptop or cell phone battery. I was merely showing that I understand the basic difference in why car batteries would last longer in that sense of the word.

 

The actual charging cycle, which is what you are talking about, is completely different from what I was even talking about.

[Y2HH]

I posted a rather simple answer to your postulation that the batteries will be dead in 3 years--your comparison was flawed.

 

You're also the one who claimed GM's warranty was "sneaky" and "almost useless" based off of a bad comparison. I'm unsure of why you jumped on GM based on limited knowledge of how the Volt and its battery system operates.

 

It an American car company warranty.

 

It's sneaky. I guarantee it.

 

And I know my comparison was flawed...it's why, from the start -- since you seem to dense to accept this -- that I said I did not know and was curious.

 

Again.

 

I did not know and I was curious how it worked.

 

Get that yet?

 

If not, I can repeat it again.

[StrangeSox]

The alternator is what prevents car batteries from draining as fast as say a laptop or cell phone battery. I was merely showing that I understand the basic difference in why car batteries would last longer in that sense of the word.

 

The actual charging cycle, which is what you are talking about, is completely different from what I was even talking about.

 

The Volt doesn't recharge the battery via an alternator*. The alternator isn't the main difference between the Volt's (or my Makita power tools') battery charging technology and your standard laptop battery. You're showing that you don't understand why standard PB-acid car batteries are different from laptop Li-ion batteries which are different from advanced Li-Ion batteries that monitor battery properties such as temperature to maximize life and minimize charge time. Alternators have absolutely nothing to do with this and I'm still not sure why you brought them up.

 

For standard charging from a wall. I'm sure the on-board gasoline generator has an alternator, but it still has smart charging technology controlling the charing and not just some metal brushes on an alternator.

Edited March 4, 2011 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

It an American car company warranty.

 

It's sneaky. I guarantee it.

 

And I know my comparison was flawed...it's why, from the start -- since you seem to dense to accept this -- that I said I did not know and was curious.

 

Again.

 

I did not know and I was curious how it worked.

 

Get that yet?

 

If not, I can repeat it again.

 

Do you now admit that it was a pretty s*** guess based on limited knowledge of the technology employed and that you have no valid reason to continue to expect the batteries to need non-warrantable replacement a full five years before the warranty period is up?

[Cknolls]

2.7 million people marginally attached and not counted as unemployed.

 

Labor Force Participation unchanged at 64.2%

 

Emp. Pop. ratio unchanged at 58.4%

 

Avg Workweek unchanged at 34.2

 

Birth/Death Adj. 112,000

 

 

This is hardly any improvement.

 

 

But everyone knows this number is fiction, and has been for quite some time.

[Cknolls]

Why is Greenspan still given a forum to babble?

 

 

He said things are good if you don't count the Euro Zone weaknesses, the gas/oil spikes, and the massive budget deficits. WTF.....

[Y2HH]

Do you now admit that it was a pretty s*** guess based on limited knowledge of the technology employed and that you have no valid reason to continue to expect the batteries to need non-warrantable replacement a full five years before the warranty period is up?

 

I'll repeat it again, since you seem to have missed it:

 

I said, from the start, that I did not know and was curious how it worked in relation to charging, the warranty, etc.

 

Is something wrong with you or what? I mean, I'm honestly asking, because you seem hellbent on getting a person to admit that they don't know...when I sorta preemptively stated that from the start, and subsequently RE-stated multiple times because you have some sort of problem understanding the written word here...

[Y2HH]

Why is Greenspan still given a forum to babble?

 

 

He said things are good if you don't count the Euro Zone weaknesses, the gas/oil spikes, and the massive budget deficits. WTF.....

 

So let me get this straight...things are great so long as we ignore all the things that are bad?

[Balta1701]

So let me get this straight...things are great so long as we ignore all the things that are bad?

Worked great for housing in 2004-2007.

[Balta1701]

The Volt doesn't recharge the battery via an alternator*. The alternator isn't the main difference between the Volt's (or my Makita power tools') battery charging technology and your standard laptop battery. You're showing that you don't understand why standard PB-acid car batteries are different from laptop Li-ion batteries which are different from advanced Li-Ion batteries that monitor battery properties such as temperature to maximize life and minimize charge time. Alternators have absolutely nothing to do with this and I'm still not sure why you brought them up.

 

For standard charging from a wall. I'm sure the on-board gasoline generator has an alternator, but it still has smart charging technology controlling the charing and not just some metal brushes on an alternator.

Actually, if I understand my Leaf correctly, both the Leaf and the Volt will have a standard Pb battery, which charges off of an alternator in the case of the Volt when it is running in gasoline mode.

 

That Pb battery is used to power all of the electronics. The big battery pack is running at several hundred volts. That is high enough to fry the basic electronics if you try to use the same power source. In electric mode, there is a DC current stepdown to get it to a voltage that will allow you to run standard 12 volt items.

[Balta1701]

I have no idea either, I was just curious...since I work in the tech field and I know rechargeable (even the BEST rechargeables) have VERY finite recharge numbers...and if you're recharging your car everyday, I don't see those lasting more than 3 years without needing full replacements. Not to mention, the amount of power they can store dwindles on every charge.

The explicit statement from Nissan and Chevrolet is that this generation of batteries does not have a memory. They expect, as others have noted, a small deterioration in performance over the space of a decade, but they literally told me in person that they have built next-gen batteries that have no memory. It shouldn't matter if you drive it to 20% power and then charge it versus recharging it every night at 80% power. The amount of power should not dwindle on every charge.

 

Worth noting a comparison here...the Prius has been on the road for more than a decade, and I think in general people have been suprised that the batteries have lasted longer than expected, not shorter.

[Y2HH]

The explicit statement from Nissan and Chevrolet is that this generation of batteries does not have a memory. They expect, as others have noted, a small deterioration in performance over the space of a decade, but they literally told me in person that they have built next-gen batteries that have no memory. It shouldn't matter if you drive it to 20% power and then charge it versus recharging it every night at 80% power. The amount of power should not dwindle on every charge.

 

Worth noting a comparison here...the Prius has been on the road for more than a decade, and I think in general people have been suprised that the batteries have lasted longer than expected, not shorter.

 

The memory isn't really a concern, rechargeables haven't had memory since the nickle cadmium days, modern cell phone/laptop Li-Ion's don't have memory, either. It's the performance degradation I was concerned with, moreso than anything else.

[Balta1701]

The memory isn't really a concern, rechargeables haven't had memory since the nickle cadmium days, modern cell phone/laptop Li-Ion's don't have memory, either. It's the performance degradation I was concerned with, moreso than anything else.

Here's my take.

 

Nissan is first on the market with an all-electric. They've had prototypes on the road for a few years, but they have a major advantage being the first all-electric, especially if there's $5 a gallon gas in a year or two.

 

If Nissan's batteries degrade in performance too fast, lasting only a couple years instead of 10-20, they're going to harm their image for a long time and they're going to blow a golden opportunity to be the first all-electric.

 

I will say, they are taking a gamble. The basic principles behind everyone's battery design is the same (Li-metal battery; note, this is quite different from the Lithium Ion battery in your laptop), but Nissan runs theirs in a different way. They air-cool it, rather than having a heating/insulation system like Tesla does, which Tesla says will cut their battery life. They also run the battery much lower than Chevy does in the Volt; the Volt only takes slices out of the battery, Nissan blows through much of it.

 

I'm not wealthy enough to be an early-adopter, so by the time I can pull one of these off, we'll have at least a few years years of usable, real world data on all of them, and we'll probably have a similar drive system appearing in a number of other vehicles. If I had the cash available, I'd strongly consider being an early adopter, but I don't. However, if we start talking about >$5 a gallon gas, it won't take long for everyone to figure out the electric car math.

[Y2HH]

Here's my take.

 

Nissan is first on the market with an all-electric. They've had prototypes on the road for a few years, but they have a major advantage being the first all-electric, especially if there's $5 a gallon gas in a year or two.

 

If Nissan's batteries degrade in performance too fast, lasting only a couple years instead of 10-20, they're going to harm their image for a long time and they're going to blow a golden opportunity to be the first all-electric.

 

I will say, they are taking a gamble. The basic principles behind everyone's battery design is the same (Li-metal battery; note, this is quite different from the Lithium Ion battery in your laptop), but Nissan runs theirs in a different way. They air-cool it, rather than having a heating/insulation system like Tesla does, which Tesla says will cut their battery life. They also run the battery much lower than Chevy does in the Volt; the Volt only takes slices out of the battery, Nissan blows through much of it.

 

I'm not wealthy enough to be an early-adopter, so by the time I can pull one of these off, we'll have at least a few years years of usable, real world data on all of them, and we'll probably have a similar drive system appearing in a number of other vehicles. If I had the cash available, I'd strongly consider being an early adopter, but I don't. However, if we start talking about >$5 a gallon gas, it won't take long for everyone to figure out the electric car math.

 

I hope they get some hybrids that have some actual space in them for long road tripping, right now this is one of the problems with these cars...too small for what I need...otherwise I'd get one. All electric for me is out of the question...not enough miles, I take 1000+ mile trips all the time during the summer, so all electric is a no go for me...but a hybrid of significant size that can haul my canoe + camping equipment + 3 people would be awesome.

[Balta1701]

I hope they get some hybrids that have some actual space in them for long road tripping, right now this is one of the problems with these cars...too small for what I need...otherwise I'd get one. All electric for me is out of the question...not enough miles, I take 1000+ mile trips all the time during the summer, so all electric is a no go for me...but a hybrid of significant size that can haul my canoe + camping equipment + 3 people would be awesome.

Well, you do realize they currently have plenty of long road-tripping hybrids right? The hybrid system does its best jobs on large SUV's; they get the largest percentage decrease in gas savings. A highlander hybrid, for example.

 

Eventually they're going to have all-electric SUV's & vans, that'll take a bit of time. They've got to get the lines up and running, just like how the Prius came out. They roll it out in the small car format to get the lines up and running, then move on to luxury vehicles and SUV's in the next step.

 

The time it takes for them to get to that next step, IMO, is going to depend a lot on gas prices. If this spike continues going up and doesn't stabilize or recede, you'll see a flood of all-electric or volt-style partial electric vehicles in the coming year or two.

[Y2HH]

Well, you do realize they currently have plenty of long road-tripping hybrids right? The hybrid system does its best jobs on large SUV's; they get the largest percentage decrease in gas savings. A highlander hybrid, for example.

 

Eventually they're going to have all-electric SUV's & vans, that'll take a bit of time. They've got to get the lines up and running, just like how the Prius came out. They roll it out in the small car format to get the lines up and running, then move on to luxury vehicles and SUV's in the next step.

 

The time it takes for them to get to that next step, IMO, is going to depend a lot on gas prices. If this spike continues going up and doesn't stabilize or recede, you'll see a flood of all-electric or volt-style partial electric vehicles in the coming year or two.

 

No, I had no idea they had big hybrids...I'll have to look at some.

[Balta1701]

No, I had no idea they had big hybrids...I'll have to look at some.

At least with the present situation, that's where the real savings are. Everyone's used to looking at miles per gallon, but if you want to understand the savings, you have to look at gallons per mile (Or gallons per 1000 miles, something like that).

 

A Prius might average 40 mpg, which puts it at 25 gallons per 1000 miles. Without the hybrid system, it might average 30 mpg, which would put it at 33 gallons per 1000 miles. Saves 8 gallons for a 10 mpg increase.

 

A normal SUV might average 13 MPG, which would put it at 77 gallons per 1000 miles. But if you push that to 18 mpg, you drop to 56 gallons per 1000 miles, so you save 21 gallons for a 5 mpg increase.

 

Project each of those up to 10,000 miles/full year, and while the Prius might save 80 gallons of gas over the year, the SUV would save 200+. At $4 a gallon, that's $800 a year for a small decrease in mpg.

 

The GMC Yukon Hybrid is rated at 20/23 (city/highway), compared to 15/20 for the regular Yukon. The Toyota Highlander hybrid is rated at 28/28, compared to 20/25 in the regular version.

[iamshack]

At least with the present situation, that's where the real savings are. Everyone's used to looking at miles per gallon, but if you want to understand the savings, you have to look at gallons per mile (Or gallons per 1000 miles, something like that).

 

A Prius might average 40 mpg, which puts it at 25 gallons per 1000 miles. Without the hybrid system, it might average 30 mpg, which would put it at 33 gallons per 1000 miles. Saves 8 gallons for a 10 mpg increase.

 

A normal SUV might average 13 MPG, which would put it at 77 gallons per 1000 miles. But if you push that to 18 mpg, you drop to 56 gallons per 1000 miles, so you save 21 gallons for a 5 mpg increase.

 

Project each of those up to 10,000 miles/full year, and while the Prius might save 80 gallons of gas over the year, the SUV would save 200+. At $4 a gallon, that's $800 a year for a small decrease in mpg.

 

The GMC Yukon Hybrid is rated at 20/23 (city/highway), compared to 15/20 for the regular Yukon. The Toyota Highlander hybrid is rated at 28/28, compared to 20/25 in the regular version.

Unfortunately, the Yukon Hybrid runs about $6-7k more than a similarly equipped non-hybrid Yukon. So you're talking about a 6-8 year recapture on a 10k miles per year car. Obviously, as you drive more, or the price of gas increases, you're seeing a faster recapture time.

[Balta1701]

Unfortunately, the Yukon Hybrid runs about $6-7k more than a similarly equipped non-hybrid Yukon. So you're talking about a 6-8 year recapture on a 10k miles per year car. Obviously, as you drive more, or the price of gas increases, you're seeing a faster recapture time.

Also the more city driving you do, you recapture more. The more stop and go your normal drive is, the more effective.

[jasonxctf]

i keep beating this drum.. but also look at the clean diesel cars from the german mftrs. (vw, audi, mb, etc)

 

my diesel jetta gets around 10mpg more than the non-diesel. $3.70 for diesel vs $3.50 for normal.

 

Diesel = 9.4 cents/mile

Normal= 12.0 cents/mile

 

plus filling up every 550 miles is pretty neat.

[NorthSideSox72]

By the way, if people are ever looking for info on what hybrid cars and SUV's are currently available (also electrics), and what are coming soon, you can use this site. Further, if you go to their SUV section, you will find 16 different hybrid SUV's to choose from now, with more coming each year. Current alt-driven SUV's range in price from 30k to 90k, and from small to large in size. Take your pick.

 

All told, there are about 50 different hybrid and/or electric car/truck/SUV models available now.

 

[iamshack]

i keep beating this drum.. but also look at the clean diesel cars from the german mftrs. (vw, audi, mb, etc)

 

my diesel jetta gets around 10mpg more than the non-diesel. $3.70 for diesel vs $3.50 for normal.

 

Diesel = 9.4 cents/mile

Normal= 12.0 cents/mile

 

plus filling up every 550 miles is pretty neat.

Yeah, I was going to mention I would rather just get a diesel SUV than a hybrid, but I wasn't sure of how the diesel market reacts in comparison to regular gasoline.

[NorthSideSox72]

Yeah, I was going to mention I would rather just get a diesel SUV than a hybrid, but I wasn't sure of how the diesel market reacts in comparison to regular gasoline.

Diesel will go up and down about the same as normal gas, but with higher standard deviation because its simply a narrower market. So the changes may be more erratic, and supply problems may be magnified.