southsider2k5 Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 09:42 AM) They're free to not buy from GM if they have a problem with pensions for labor but no problem for obscene wealth for executives. They aren't free, however, to step away from government funded pensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Government-funded bond payments are much more preferable than government-funded health care for retired workers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 09:45 AM) Government-funded bond payments are much more preferable than government-funded health care for retired workers. Both are happening in many places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 09:45 AM) Government-funded bond payments are much more preferable than government-funded health care for retired workers. That depends. My issue with government funded healthcare for retired workers is we live by two vastly different standards... 1) The union standard, where you are of retirement age at 51 and eligible for healthcare benefits/pension funds. 2) The private standard, where you are of retirement age at 65 and eligible for healthcare benefits/social security funds. So no, I don't want to be on the hook for paying their pensions/healthcare contracts because the unions made sweet deals with the corrupted politicians, then blamed the politicians for spending their money when they were the ones overseeing it...that's on them...they should fix it with their own workers, who get to retire as early as 51...maybe they should retire at 65, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 09:29 AM) On the other hand, we have companies like Verizon and Caterpillar laying off workers and fighting to slash wages and benefits while paying out hundreds of millions of dollars collectively to a handful of top executives over the past several years. This is where I step away from my conservative brethren and agree with you evil liberalites. This practice is bulls*** and should not be accepted. I wish society would realize how this system ends up f***ing middle class America much more than they realize. Promoting the American dream/free market to benefit the rich ends up costing the middle more in the long run. The poor don't pay for it, and the rich don't pay for it, so middle class - here's your bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 09:53 AM) That depends. My issue with government funded healthcare for retired workers is we live by two vastly different standards... 1) The union standard, where you are of retirement age at 51 and eligible for healthcare benefits/pension funds. 2) The private standard, where you are of retirement age at 65 and eligible for healthcare benefits/social security funds. So no, I don't want to be on the hook for paying their pensions/healthcare contracts because the unions made sweet deals with the corrupted politicians, then blamed the politicians for spending their money when they were the ones overseeing it...that's on them...they should fix it with their own workers, who get to retire as early as 51...maybe they should retire at 65, too. UAW retirement age is not 51. No local unions that I'm aware of have retirement that low. These retirement benefits were contractually agreed to and earned by the workers. eta: though for some jobs it makes perfect sense to have the retirement age earlier than others. Military, fire and police all are eligible for retirement before 65. Trade workers can usually retire earlier than 65 as well. The toll on your body from physical labor is a lot different from a desk job. Once your knees and back are shot from decades of working as a pipefitter/carpenter/painter/etc., you're no longer very effective at your job if you can even do it anymore. Edited June 5, 2012 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 09:54 AM) This is where I step away from my conservative brethren and agree with you evil liberalites. This practice is bulls*** and should not be accepted. I wish society would realize how this system ends up f***ing middle class America much more than they realize. Promoting the American dream/free market to benefit the rich ends up costing the middle more in the long run. The poor don't pay for it, and the rich don't pay for it, so middle class - here's your bill. The poor suffer as well when factory factory jobs wages and benefits are slashed, eliminating good work opportunities to earn a decent living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 10:01 AM) UAW retirement age is not 51. No local unions that I'm aware of have retirement that low. These retirement benefits were contractually agreed to and earned by the workers. Police and Fire are both 51...20 years of service, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 10:01 AM) UAW retirement age is not 51. No local unions that I'm aware of have retirement that low. These retirement benefits were contractually agreed to and earned by the workers. I agree...and they should be paid every dime they are owed...BUT, leaning on the private citizen to cover for them was NOT in the contract *I* and other private workers agreed too FOR them. They have oversight committees, and the union workers didn't give a f*** who they 'elected' into these roles...and watched them, year after year, steal their money. It wasn't until they wanted to retire that they suddenly cared...they all magically thought the money was going to reappear. So the entire time this was happening, none of them "banded together" and did anything about it. Instead, they just watched it on the sidelines until it was too late to do anything about it. Now enter the private citizen to bail them out...the private citizen who DID NOT AGREE to any such contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 10:04 AM) Police and Fire are both 51...20 years of service, right? Do you want a bunch of 65 year olds trying to pull you and your family from a burning building after doing a lifetime of exhausting physical labor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 10:07 AM) Do you want a bunch of 65 year olds trying to pull you and your family from a burning building after doing a lifetime of exhausting physical labor? People always try to use this bulls*** line on me...and it's just that...bulls***. And easily discarded, too. Watch me do it now. Why do the 65 year olds have to be the ones doing that? Can't they be the ones...you know, doing the paper work? See how easy that was? There are PLENTY of jobs that the older workers can be performing, ASIDE from running into burning buildings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 10:07 AM) I agree...and they should be paid every dime they are owed...BUT, leaning on the private citizen to cover for them was NOT in the contract *I* and other private workers agreed too FOR them. They have oversight committees, and the union workers didn't give a f*** who they 'elected' into these roles...and watched them, year after year, steal their money. It wasn't until they wanted to retire that they suddenly cared...they all magically thought the money was going to reappear. So the entire time this was happening, none of them "banded together" and did anything about it. Instead, they just watched it on the sidelines until it was too late to do anything about it. Now enter the private citizen to bail them out...the private citizen who DID NOT AGREE to any such contracts. ??? The pension funds were bailed out and taken over by the unions because the private corporations could not meet their contractual obligations to fund them for their retired workers whose labor made executives very wealthy over the decades. We're talking about GM here, not public sector pensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 10:09 AM) People always try to use this bulls*** line on me...and it's just that...bulls***. And easily discarded, too. Watch me do it now. Why do the 65 year olds have to be the ones doing that? Can't they be the ones...you know, doing the paper work? See how easy that was? There are PLENTY of jobs that the older workers can be performing, ASIDE from running into burning buildings. Firefighters have an awful lot of downtime. If you're keeping (forcing) that 64 year old dude to sit around and do paperwork, you're taking a job away from the younger guy who'd be doing that AND going out on calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 10:09 AM) ??? The pension funds were bailed out and taken over by the unions because the private corporations could not meet their contractual obligations to fund them for their retired workers whose labor made executives very wealthy over the decades. We're talking about GM here, not public sector pensions. I'm talking about the public pensions...GM and these pensions are NOTHING in comparison. GM's pension issues are minuscule in comparison to the state/city pensions you are now paying into, since the politicians robbed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 10:10 AM) Firefighters have an awful lot of downtime. If you're keeping (forcing) that 64 year old dude to sit around and do paperwork, you're taking a job away from the younger guy who'd be doing that AND going out on calls. Do you even know how public jobs work? Because it doesn't sound like it. Desk workers do NOT go out on calls...not in the police department, and not on the fire department. Never have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 10:13 AM) Do you even know how public jobs work? Because it doesn't sound like it. Desk workers do NOT go out on calls...not in the police department, and not on the fire department. Never have. City of Chicago, not really. I'm thinking of suburban stations, with a bunch of guys sitting around playing cards or cutting the grass until a call comes in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 10:15 AM) City of Chicago, not really. I'm thinking of suburban stations, with a bunch of guys sitting around playing cards or cutting the grass until a call comes in. Same in City stations. Only in city stations they BBQ. You just seem to think they run these places like an actual business, where one person can do multiple jobs. But with most city/union jobs, that's not how it works. You have perfectly able bodied individuals that don't do certain tasks...because it's not their task. It's like road workers...where 3 stand around talking, 1 works with the machine, and 1 holds a sign telling cars to watch out. Yes, the 3 standing there could be doing something else... But they won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 10:17 AM) It's like road workers...where 3 stand around talking, 1 works with the machine, and 1 holds a sign telling cars to watch out. Yes, the 3 standing there could be doing something else... But they won't. Says the guy posting on SoxTalk... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 10:21 AM) Says the guy posting on SoxTalk... I didn't choose that line of work...it's not for me. That doesn't mean I don't know people who do these jobs, who tell me exactly how it works. That and every time you drive through a construction zone, you will witness exactly what I described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I work at job sites frequently enough, I do not deny what you are saying. Just last week I had to wait 1-1/2 hours for someone to go get me a tape measurer. I'm just pointing out that we're no less guilty of it when we're browsing ST during working hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 1) 80% odds China avoids a hard landing 2) 60% chance of Euro-zone solution 3) 70% likely US avoids fiscal cliff P=>*Nothing* goes wrong =33% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 10:30 AM) I work at job sites frequently enough, I do not deny what you are saying. Just last week I had to wait 1-1/2 hours for someone to go get me a tape measurer. I'm just pointing out that we're no less guilty of it when we're browsing ST during working hours. And I'm not asking for public workers to pay into my retirement fund, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 10:55 AM) And I'm not asking for public workers to pay into my retirement fund, either. That'd be fair, right? I pay their pension, they can pay into my 401k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 5, 2012 -> 10:59 AM) That'd be fair, right? I pay their pension, they can pay into my 401k. Most don't pay into SS, either. So while I understand their pension meant everything to them, why is it my fault that their pensions are underfunded and/or being robbed by elected and politicians that their own unions backed? I paid all the necessary taxes to fund that pension...which was stolen, so what do they do? Raise my taxes more...and more. They had no oversight...and it's not like this was a secret...they've known about the pension issue for YEARS and did nothing. They went through MULTIPLE local and state elections and kept the same people in office...and did nothing. Over and over again... It comes to my attention that the people that lost all their 401k money with Enron were not "rescued"...but when government backed unions f*** up...they should be? If you know these elected officials, both of the unions and of the politicians, are going to be the ones managing your pension money, maybe you should make sure you elect good leaders, instead of those hand picked by unions that continued to rob you blind year after year. That or do what I did...manage your own money and get a NON union job so you don't have to worry about someone else managing it for you. Edited June 5, 2012 by Y2HH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 hey guise, i was wondering how all my facebook stock is doing. i bought it at $38 a share. so is it up to $200 or $300 a share? too lazy to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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