FIRE WALKER

[WCSox]

This beautifully sums it all up for me. It's all about sending a message.

 

You don't take away a man's job and livelihood to "send a message." If you truly believe that the players are no longer responding to Walker, then you replace him this winter. But you don't take away another human being's job just because you're pissed off and want to shake things up.

Edited August 29, 2009 by WCSox

[BigEdWalsh]

You don't take away a man's job and livelihood to "send a message." If you truly believe that the players are no longer responding to Walker, then you replace him this winter. But you don't take away another human being's job just because you're pissed off and want to shake things up.

I disagree. It's baseball. It's a business. It sucks maybe, but that's the way it works and it happens all the time.

[WCSox]

I disagree. It's baseball. It's a business. It sucks maybe, but that's the way it works and it happens all the time.

 

That's not how you run a successful business. You don't fire somebody because you're pissed off and want to "send a message." You fire somebody because they're not doing their job.

 

And that very well may be the case with Walker. But you don't give him the axe until you're convinced that he's the problem, and not the players.

 

[Princess Dye]

Our current problems are the older guys not doing what they used to do - as well as Quentin having an entire year of readjusting post-injury.

 

So it's not on Walker, it's on older guys that used to be able to do it--not being able to do it anymore.

 

 

And above all, on KW for not taking advantage of the great buyers market with guys like Hudson and Abreu out there....and then going ahead and spending way more on Rios and Peavy (2010 onward that is). I'm fine with the 2 we acquired, but it just highlights how we couldve spent and didnt before the year.

 

I know Hudson woulda cost picks. But he's great and fills needs.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Princess Dye

[whitesoxfan101]

I don't understand how this thread is so long. Walker is a poor hitting coach and hasn't really done his job particularly well in quite a while. But for some unexplainable reason, the Sox haven't got rid of him. We've need an upgrade at his job position for years, yet haven't done it, so what makes you think we will fire him now?

[YonderLaroche]

Our current problems are the older guys not doing what they used to do - as well as Quentin having an entire year of readjusting post-injury.

 

So it's not on Walker, it's on older guys that used to be able to do it--not being able to do it anymore.

 

 

And above all, on KW for not taking advantage of the great buyers market with guys like Hudson and Abreu out there....and then going ahead and spending way more on Rios and Peavy (2010 onward that is). I'm fine with the 2 we acquired, but it just highlights how we couldve spent and didnt before the year.

 

I think KW's offseason was as bad as Hendry's and his in season moves have done nothing for this team except screw the chemistry of the team... although we cut payroll our opening day roster sucked. Even though we cut the crap in Betemit, Colon, Wise, Anderson, Fields, Macdougal (now tearing it up in Washington) Lillibridge (til Getz injury) we're under .500 again. We added 10mil plus in salary in Rios (nothing so far), Peavy (hurt), Pena (bad), Kotsay (ok), Pods (great move, def luck), Castro (not much better than Corky), Sweatry Freddy (1 good, 1 bad start)..

 

I don't get why he wanted to give all the young guys a chance then a few months into the season dump them because he thinks we're in a pennant chase (.500 record?)... We've traded away and gave away Poreda, Richard, Allen, Brian Anderson, Lance Broadway and I don't think we would be any worse if these guys were still on the roster getting major league playing time.

 

That goes to show that BIG changes need to be made next year and I think they will. I think this team is gonna go for a world series next year. I think some bold moves will be made this offseason, and I think Dye will be gonna, Jenks will be gone, Pods will be gone, and a move like trading one of Floyd/Alexai/Konerko will be made. I think he will sign a long term RF, lots of bullpen help for cheap, , and keep Kotsay to platoon with Thome at DH and play OF/1B. He will also resign Wise and trade more prospects.

Edited August 29, 2009 by b-Rye

[BigSqwert]

That's not how you run a successful business. You don't fire somebody because you're pissed off and want to "send a message."

In most normal businesses yes. In sports, no. This type of thing is done all the time.

[greg775]

I can't believe people have strong opinions on hitting/pitching coaches.

You really really think sending a message will make a frickin difference? We've changed a lot of third base coaches and they are all the same.

GET BETTER PLAYERS.

 

Also, you said

"I think this team is gonna go for a world series next year. I think some bold moves will be made this offseason, and I think Dye will be gonna, Jenks will be gone, Pods will be gone, and a move like trading one of Floyd/Alexai/Konerko will be made. I think he will sign a long term RF, lots of bullpen help for cheap, , and keep Kotsay to platoon with Thome at DH and play OF/1B. He will also resign Wise and trade more prospects. "

 

This wait til next year stuff can be scary. Next year can turn into next year and the next year.

I agree Kenny's moves look awfully stupid right now. We need a MUCH BETTER offseason in the personnel moves department. I see no reason to believe we'll be great next year right now.

Edited August 29, 2009 by greg775

[WCSox]

I can't believe people have strong opinions on hitting/pitching coaches.

You really really think sending a message will make a frickin difference? We've changed a lot of third base coaches and they are all the same.

GET BETTER PLAYERS.

 

I've seen a lot of pitching coaches get a ton out of very average pitchers (Coop, Mazzone, Dave Duncan, etc.), but I haven't seen that correlation when it comes to hitting coaches.

 

If the Sox want more consistent hitting, they need to phase out the dinosaurs in the middle of the lineup.

 

[BigEdWalsh]

If the Sox want more consistent hitting, they need to phase out the dinosaurs in the middle of the lineup.

How true. Can't argue with that. The "Get Better Players" philosophy is pretty obvious, but it's not gonna happen overnight especially at this point in the season. I'm sorry that about all you can do right now is send a message. Everybody isn't going to agree with that. No matter what you're talking about doing not everyone is going to agree with the course of action. So flame away about "sending a message" but for christ's sake something has to happen fast. We'd all like to see this team doing better than struggle to be at .500.

[Milkman delivers]

I think KW's offseason was as bad as Hendry's and his in season moves have done nothing for this team except screw the chemistry of the team... although we cut payroll our opening day roster sucked. Even though we cut the crap in Betemit, Colon, Wise, Anderson, Fields, Macdougal (now tearing it up in Washington) Lillibridge (til Getz injury) we're under .500 again. We added 10mil plus in salary in Rios (nothing so far), Peavy (hurt), Pena (bad), Kotsay (ok), Pods (great move, def luck), Castro (not much better than Corky), Sweatry Freddy (1 good, 1 bad start)..

 

I don't get why he wanted to give all the young guys a chance then a few months into the season dump them because he thinks we're in a pennant chase (.500 record?)... We've traded away and gave away Poreda, Richard, Allen, Brian Anderson, Lance Broadway and I don't think we would be any worse if these guys were still on the roster getting major league playing time.

 

That goes to show that BIG changes need to be made next year and I think they will. I think this team is gonna go for a world series next year. I think some bold moves will be made this offseason, and I think Dye will be gonna, Jenks will be gone, Pods will be gone, and a move like trading one of Floyd/Alexai/Konerko will be made. I think he will sign a long term RF, lots of bullpen help for cheap, , and keep Kotsay to platoon with Thome at DH and play OF/1B. He will also resign Wise and trade more prospects.

 

Wow, you really hate everything Williams has done recently.

[WCSox]

How true. Can't argue with that. The "Get Better Players" philosophy is pretty obvious, but it's not gonna happen overnight especially at this point in the season. I'm sorry that about all you can do right now is send a message. Everybody isn't going to agree with that. No matter what you're talking about doing not everyone is going to agree with the course of action. So flame away about "sending a message" but for christ's sake something has to happen fast. We'd all like to see this team doing better than struggle to be at .500.

 

You don't fire the hitting coach because the aging sluggers in the middle of the lineup aren't producing. The only "message" that sends is that Kenny and JR will throw their coaching staff under the bus when inferior talent fails to produce. You're going to have difficulty convincing a good hitting coach to accept a job with the Sox when they have that reputation.

 

Doing something for the sake of doing something is an emotional, illogical, and unprofessional approach to running a business.

 

Edited August 29, 2009 by WCSox

[Milkman delivers]

You don't fire the hitting coach because the aging sluggers in the middle of the lineup aren't producing. The only "message" that sends is that Kenny and JR will throw their coaching staff under the bus when the players don't produce. You're going to have difficulty convincing a good hitting coach to accept a job with the Sox when they have that reputation.

 

Doing something for the sake of doing something is an emotional, illogical, and unprofessional approach to running a business.

 

I understand that this is your opinion, but it happens in baseball fairly often.

 

Hell man, Walker's been on this staff for how many years now? At least five. That's probably a pretty good tenure for a hitting coach.

[BigSqwert]

You don't fire the hitting coach because the aging sluggers in the middle of the lineup aren't producing. The only "message" that sends is that Kenny and JR will throw their coaching staff under the bus when inferior talent fails to produce. You're going to have difficulty convincing a good hitting coach to accept a job with the Sox when they have that reputation.

 

Doing something for the sake of doing something is an emotional, illogical, and unprofessional approach to running a business.

I completely understand the point you've been trying to make but you fail to use context. This is baseball. This sort of thing is done every single season by at least a few teams. It's not like we would be doing some unprecedented move that would be the front page of SI, crippling our franchise for a decade. You're completely overreacting about the implications of firing a hitting coach.

[CWSOX45]

Sergio Mitre working on a one hitter.

 

I've said it before and I've said it again, on most occasions it looks like this team has no plan at the plate. They turn over on sliders and breaking balls, they're all pull happy, they don't work the count on guys that they should, it's the same thing over and over.

 

I'm sure Walker comes up with a game plan, but if the player's don't want to listen then there is no point in having Walker on the payroll.

 

A change is needed.

[caulfield12]

I don't get why he wanted to give all the young guys a chance then a few months into the season dump them because he thinks we're in a pennant chase (.500 record?)... We've traded away and gave away Poreda, Richard, Allen, Brian Anderson, Lance Broadway and I don't think we would be any worse if these guys were still on the roster getting major league playing time.

 

That goes to show that BIG changes need to be made next year and I think they will. I think this team is gonna go for a world series next year. I think some bold moves will be made this offseason, and I think Dye will be gonna, Jenks will be gone, Pods will be gone, and a move like trading one of Floyd/Alexai/Konerko will be made. I think he will sign a long term RF, lots of bullpen help for cheap, , and keep Kotsay to platoon with Thome at DH and play OF/1B. He will also resign Wise and trade more prospects.

 

The Peavy trade was a bold one, let's wait at least one season before giving Clayton Richard the NL Cy Young.

 

KW had left the roster too weak at the beginning of the year and then thought he could ride Beckham/Pods/Quentin/Rios/Peavy to take the division, didn't turn out that way for a number of reasons.

 

Anderson and Broadway? REALLY??? The jury's still out on Allen, and it will look pretty stupid if Pena can't take over Dotel's work AND we lose Thome/Dye AND we can't find a LH, power-hitting 1B/LF/DH type on the FA market, like a DUNN or Abreu.

 

No way Kotsay is part of a DH-platoon. Forget that idea, he's not a strong enough hitter anymore. He's a 5th outfielder, last player on the roster on a really good team, and defensive replacement at 1B.

 

They very well might trade Konerko or Ramirez, but Konerko won't get ANYTHING back (you'll have to pay part of his salary probably), so the only marketable players you have to trade are Ramirez, possibly Jenks (to a much lesser extent than Ramirez) and some of our minor leaguers, who KW needs to hold onto and not trade (Flowers/Hudson/Viciedo/Danks/Mitchell).

[WCSox]

I completely understand the point you've been trying to make but you fail to use context. This is baseball. This sort of thing is done every single season by at least a few teams. It's not like we would be doing some unprecedented move that would be the front page of SI, crippling our franchise for a decade. You're completely overreacting about the implications of firing a hitting coach.

 

I disagree, and would add that some people here are wrong in thinking that it's OK to throw coaches under the bus in baseball. If JR and Kenny morph into George Steinbrenner, there will be negative consequences. Remember how Griffey and Maddux both nixed trades to the Yankees? You'll see the same thing when Kenny tries to trade for the next Jim Thome or Jake Peavy.

 

And I want to make clear that I'm not against firing Greg Walker... as long as it's done for the right reason. Scapegoating Walker to "send a message" isn't the right reason.

 

[nitetrain8601]

I disagree, and would add that some people here are wrong in thinking that it's OK to throw coaches under the bus in baseball. If JR and Kenny morph into George Steinbrenner, there will be negative consequences. Remember how Griffey and Maddux both nixed trades to the Yankees? You'll see the same thing when Kenny tries to trade for the next Jim Thome or Jake Peavy.

 

And I want to make clear that I'm not against firing Greg Walker... as long as it's done for the right reason. Scapegoating Walker to "send a message" isn't the right reason.

 

I'm pretty sure they didn't nix trades to the Yankees because of their coaches. Also, I'm pretty sure that more players have accepted trades instead of denied the trades because they were the Yankees.

[Kyyle23]

I disagree, and would add that some people here are wrong in thinking that it's OK to throw coaches under the bus in baseball. If JR and Kenny morph into George Steinbrenner, there will be negative consequences. Remember how Griffey and Maddux both nixed trades to the Yankees? You'll see the same thing when Kenny tries to trade for the next Jim Thome or Jake Peavy.

 

And I want to make clear that I'm not against firing Greg Walker... as long as it's done for the right reason. Scapegoating Walker to "send a message" isn't the right reason.

 

If they were going to fire Walker just to send a message, it would have been done after 07. At this point, it is how the team really looks at the plate out there, and there is just one word for that, LOST.

[BigSqwert]

I disagree, and would add that some people here are wrong in thinking that it's OK to throw coaches under the bus in baseball. If JR and Kenny morph into George Steinbrenner, there will be negative consequences. Remember how Griffey and Maddux both nixed trades to the Yankees? You'll see the same thing when Kenny tries to trade for the next Jim Thome or Jake Peavy.

 

And I want to make clear that I'm not against firing Greg Walker... as long as it's done for the right reason. Scapegoating Walker to "send a message" isn't the right reason.

Then provide me with a valid reason to fire a hitting coach? The offense is terrible. That seems like a good reason to me and I think most people in baseball would understand why he'd be fired when they looked at our offensive numbers.

[caulfield12]

I'd rather fire Guillen than Walker.

 

That won't happen, but I'll agree with Fathom he's been pretty horrible since the Buehrle no-hitter (of course, so have Buehrle/Dye/Konerko/Rios/Beckham/Pena/Linebrink/Dotel)....

 

I think Ozzie has one more chance in 2010...but he will be on thin ice if he struggles early in 2011 and the team suffers with chemistry issues throughout 2010 too. We let Swisher, Vazquez and Cabrera go to improve our clubhouse, and it clearly hasn't had the ameliorative affect that KW predicted it would have on the team.

[WCSox]

I'm pretty sure they didn't nix trades to the Yankees because of their coaches. Also, I'm pretty sure that more players have accepted trades instead of denied the trades because they were the Yankees.

 

No, they most likely nixed those trades because of Steinbrenner and the culture of poor treatment of employees in the Yankee organization. If an owner/GM will throw a coach under the bus to "send a message," it's only logical that they'll scapegoat a player as well. And Steinbrenner did this all of the time. His treatment of Dave Winfield is a great example, as is the way that he berated his team in the clubhouse after losing the 2001 WS.

 

The only reason that the Yankees were able to win with this culture is that they have more money than God and can buy themselves into the playoffs every year. The allure of playing for the most winning and storied franchise in the history of professional sports also helps. Unfortunately, the Sox don't have those luxuries. If they go down this route, Kenny and JR will end up looking a lot more like Marge Schott than George Steinbrenner.

 

Then provide me with a valid reason to fire a hitting coach? The offense is terrible. That seems like a good reason to me and I think most people in baseball would understand why he'd be fired when they looked at our offensive numbers.

 

If the Sox honestly believe that the problem is that the players aren't responding to Walker's instruction (rather than the players just not being that good anymore), then I'm completely on board with replacing Walker. But it has to be for that reason, and not an overly-emotional, immature scapegoating move.

 

Remember when Griffey was gushing to the media over the family-like culture of the Sox organization a few weeks ago? That's a good thing, and that sustained level of class and professionalism will help the franchise over the long run. It would be a shame to piss it away by going the Steinbrenner route.

 

[BigSqwert]

If the Sox honestly believe that the problem is that the players aren't responding to Walker's instruction (rather than the players just not being that good anymore), then I'm completely on board with replacing Walker. But it has to be for that reason, and not an overly-emotional, immature scapegoating move.

Have you ever heard of a coach getting fired just to send a message? It's always chalked up to poor play on the field and if Walker were to get fired Kenny would tell the media it was because of the production of the offense.

[WCSox]

Have you ever heard of a coach getting fired just to send a message?

 

Yes, and I completely disagree with it.

 

If the Sox fire Walker, I want them to do it for the right reasons. When the people who aren't hitting are 10- and 14-year veterans on the down-sides of their careers, it's difficult to argue that it's Greg Walker's fault. As a fan, I wouldn't buy it. But if they truly believe that Walker isn't bringing anything to the table, and that they could do better with somebody else, they shouldn't care what I think.

 

Edited August 29, 2009 by WCSox

[SoxPride56]

1 f***ing hit... are you f***ing kidding me?!?!?!

 

Keep up the work Greg!