The h1b debate

[EvilMonkey]

I know seven white collar professionals out of work. Two for over a year. So far none have been willing to take jobs for significantly less than they were making. And certainly not willing to move to Omaha and work in a processing plant. Yet only one blames it on H1B professionals that have been hired from overseas that are actually working the same job they work.

 

Tex, so are you upset that more people aren't calling out the Indian programmers and doctors here than they are the MExican meat plant workers? I would say that you are not talking to the right people then, as most of my college friends all went into programming and/or IT and half are out of work, and blaming outsourcing or cheaper foreign talent. And again, you have 2 different arguements here, beacuse the people here on the H1B are here LEGALLY, while the 'undocumented' workers in various businesses are not.

[mr_genius]

Tex, so are you upset that more people aren't calling out the Indian programmers and doctors here than they are the MExican meat plant workers? I would say that you are not talking to the right people then, as most of my college friends all went into programming and/or IT and half are out of work, and blaming outsourcing or cheaper foreign talent. And again, you have 2 different arguements here, beacuse the people here on the H1B are here LEGALLY, while the 'undocumented' workers in various businesses are not.

 

The H1b program was supposed to be used to fill positions which needed rare talents. It morphed into a program to generate visas used mainly to outsource. The L1 program is even worse, at a company I used to work at these visas were used 100% or the time to lower wages and outsource; that is how the L1 works everywhere in the US. The H1b was only used, in my estimation, about 90% of the time to lower wages and outsource. I would estimate around 10% of the H1b's actually had top notch skills that are hard to find; I completely support the visa programs to bring in doctors and top skills but not to replace US workers.

 

Your friends have a legitimate complaint. I do know that the Dept of Labor has been denying a ton of H1b visas this year, over 20% of the visas were found to be fraudulent for a number of reasons.

 

What we need is a guest worker program that makes it easier for American businesses to hire minimum wage labor from overseas and much, much, harder to hire skilled labor from overseas. The guest workers should have very limited benefits, and most of those should be tied into what benefits America the most.

 

I know that Sen Durbin introduced a bill to address the H1b/L1 visa programs; it's bill S.887 I believe. It seems like a pretty good bill. You may want to read up on it if you are interested in reforming those programs.

Edited September 2, 2009 by mr_genius

[NorthSideSox72]

The H1b program was supposed to be used to fill positions which needed rare talents. It morphed into a program to generate visas used merely to outsource U.S. IT/accounting/engineering/legal work. The L1 program is even worse, we used it a lot at IBM and they are used 100% or the time to lower wages and outsource. The H1b was only used, in my estimation, about 90% of the time to lower wages and outsource. I would estimate around 10% of the H1b's actually had top notch skills that are hard to find; I completely support the visa programs to bring in doctors and top skills but not to replace US workers.

 

Your friends have a legitimate complaint. I do know that the Dept of Labor has been denying a ton of H1b visas this year, over 20% of the visas were found to be fraudulent for a number of reasons.

 

 

 

I know that Sen Durbin introduced a bill to address the H1b/L1 visa programs; it's bill S.887 I believe. It seems like a pretty good bill. You may want to read up on it if you are interested in reforming those programs.

 

You are using a strange definition of outsourcing. Outsourcing, to me, means using resources outside the company, and more specifically, outside the area (often out of the country). H1B and L1 are not that at all - what they are is just cost-cutting moves, usually. Outsourcing means you don't give them visas, you leave them where they are.

 

[mr_genius]

You are using a strange definition of outsourcing. Outsourcing, to me, means using resources outside the company, and more specifically, outside the area (often out of the country). H1B and L1 are not that at all - what they are is just cost-cutting moves, usually. Outsourcing means you don't give them visas, you leave them where they are.

 

Actually the main users of the visas are outsourcing companies such as Infosys and Wipro. The visa program has become the window to offshoring; first bring in visa workers to learn the job then ship it overseas. I saw it done a lot.

 

 

Rank Company Headquarters Primary Employment Base H-1Bs received 2006

1 Infosys Bangalore, Karnataka, India India 4,108

2 Wipro Bangalore, Karnataka, India India 4,107

3 Microsoft Redmond, Washington US 3,517

4 Tata Consultancy Services Mumbai, Maharashtra, India India 3,046

5 Satyam Computer Services Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, India India 2,880

6 Cognizant Teaneck, New Jersey[44] India 2,226

7 Patni Computer Systems Mumbai, Maharashtra, India India 1,391

8 IBM Armonk, New York US 1,130

9 Oracle Corporation Redwood Shores, California US 1,022

10 Larsen & Toubro Infotech Mumbai, Maharashtra, India India 947

Edited September 2, 2009 by mr_genius

[NorthSideSox72]

Actually the main users of the visas are outsourcing companies such as Infosys and Wipro. I think you are confused.

 

Rank Company Headquarters Primary Employment Base H-1Bs received 2006

1 Infosys Bangalore, Karnataka, India India 4,108

2 Wipro Bangalore, Karnataka, India India 4,107

3 Microsoft Redmond, Washington US 3,517

4 Tata Consultancy Services Mumbai, Maharashtra, India India 3,046

5 Satyam Computer Services Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, India India 2,880

6 Cognizant Teaneck, New Jersey[44] India 2,226

7 Patni Computer Systems Mumbai, Maharashtra, India India 1,391

8 IBM Armonk, New York US 1,130

9 Oracle Corporation Redwood Shores, California US 1,022

10 Larsen & Toubro Infotech Mumbai, Maharashtra, India India 947

OK, so then those aren't employees of US firms. You are talking about contractors, who I suppose you could call outsourced staff. But the contracting trend goes well beyond foreign visa workers - a lot of companies were getting big into that for a while. I think I see what you are saying now - you mean consultants and contractors doing work for US companies but ultimately working for foreign companies.

 

[mr_genius]

OK, so then those aren't employees of US firms. You are talking about contractors, who I suppose you could call outsourced staff. But the contracting trend goes well beyond foreign visa workers - a lot of companies were getting big into that for a while. I think I see what you are saying now - you mean consultants and contractors doing work for US companies but ultimately working for foreign companies.

 

Outsourcing does not always mean overseas, that would be offshoring. Wipro ,Tata, ect openly refer to their services as outsourcing services even when the work is done in the US. The problem is the Indian companies do not hire locals for work. But you are correct, the visas are often used for the endgame of offshoring the work.

 

maybe we should split the thread, don't want a H1b hijack of health care

 

Edited September 2, 2009 by mr_genius

[NorthSideSox72]

Outsourcing does not always mean overseas, that would be offshoring. Wipro ,Tata, ect openly refer to their services as outsourcing services even when the work is done in the US. The problem is the Indian companies do not hire locals for work. But you are correct, the visas are often used for the endgame of offshoring the work.

 

maybe we should split the thread, don't want a H1b hijack of health care

 

I think I said that - outsourcing means outside the company. With consultants and contractors, well, I guess that counts as outsourcing.

 

Actually though, companies like Wipro DO hire Americans here in the States, believe it or not.

 

[mr_genius]

Actually though, companies like Wipro DO hire Americans here in the States, believe it or not.

 

Not very many. I worked with that company once and out of about 75 employees I saw the time working along side the company, all were all Indian. They are throwing a fit over a proposed bill that states they can't get any more H1b's until they use 50% US workers to work on projects in the US. If wipro hires Americans, it's few and far between. I know the CEO of HCL technologies openly stated he won't hire American graduates. That's a pretty bold, and stupid, statement to make at a technology conference.

Edited September 2, 2009 by mr_genius

[NorthSideSox72]

Not very many. I worked with that company once and out of about 75 employees I saw the time working along side the company, all were all Indian. They are throwing a fit over a proposed bill that states they can't get any more H1b's until they use 50% US workers to work on projects in the US. If wipro hires Americans, it's few and far between. I know the CEO of HCL technologies openly stated he won't hire American graduates. That's a pretty bold, and stupid, statement to make at a technology conference.

I don't know anything about HCL, but yeah, that is out and out dumb.

 

[mr_genius]

I don't know anything about HCL, but yeah, that is out and out dumb.

 

They're fairly big. A number of major US corporations use them.

[Texsox]

Tex, so are you upset that more people aren't calling out the Indian programmers and doctors here than they are the MExican meat plant workers? I would say that you are not talking to the right people then, as most of my college friends all went into programming and/or IT and half are out of work, and blaming outsourcing or cheaper foreign talent. And again, you have 2 different arguements here, beacuse the people here on the H1B are here LEGALLY, while the 'undocumented' workers in various businesses are not.

 

What I am pointing out is we use the same immigration system to bring in temporary farm/manual labor and professionals. The system is far too expensive for an employee earning $12,000 per year. Plus, we could also adopt a smaller benefit package for those individuals. And if I was unemployed, I'd be more upset about someone from overseas working a job I want, than someone working a job I do not want nor would sustain my family.