A Guillen quote that I keep going back to

[WCSox]

He should of got us Holliday. Now that was an acquisition.

Rios has sucked; Peavy? Are you serious? He hasn't done a thing. That's all about next year hopefully.

And Castro has been average at best.

Pena has been awful. Simply awful. Randy Williams? Was he a minor leaguer in our system or another horrid pickup?

I like KW but his acquisitions have sucked this year.

 

Way to look at the big picture with large sample sizes.

 

[son of a rude]

He should of got us Holliday. Now that was an acquisition.

Rios has sucked; Peavy? Are you serious? He hasn't done a thing. That's all about next year hopefully.

And Castro has been average at best.

Pena has been awful. Simply awful. Randy Williams? Was he a minor leaguer in our system or another horrid pickup?

I like KW but his acquisitions have sucked this year.

Cy young award winners suck.

[Princess Dye]

One thing that irks me about how we've spent money this year -- and i dont dislike Peavy and Rios either....

 

.....but Reinsdorf last offseason preferred standing with other owners (in what appeared to be an F.U. to the agents) by lowballing (or offering nothing) to free agents.......... instead of just spending to make the team tons better on the cheap (Abreu, Hudson etc)

 

They didnt want to spend then, but were willing to take on already existing contracts midseason. Honestly, if you spend some last offseason, you can hold onto all your prospects and have a nice squad with a nice future as well.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Princess Dye

[WCSox]

One thing that irks me about how we've spent money this year -- and i dont dislike Peavy and Rios either....

 

This is a valid point. The Sox are paying Peavy market value, but picking up Rios' contract was a huge gamble on Kenny's part. Both of these deals will also handicap us this winter.

 

[Greg Hibbard]

If you honestly think that the Sox can realistically field a team with five starters with WHIPs all under 1.33, you have a lot to learn about baseball.

 

Ok, you can have four starters with those numbers or very close to those numbers (as the Sox have done several times in the past few seasons) and a 5th starter who is around 1.36-1.40. The big four in 05 were obviously way low on WHIP, and I think even in 2008 they were all 1.34 or lower. McCarthy/Hernandez in 05 averages out to 1.36.

 

Going into this season, what did you expect from Contreras and Colon?

 

 

[greg775]

I said I like Kenny but his acquisitions this year were horrible. I stand by that statement.

I'd rather he picked up somebody who could have pitched say, this year, whose name was not Bartolo or Freddy. Oh wait he did. Pena. What a stiff Pena is.

 

Rios has hit no better than BA for us. He has a lot to prove next year. He and Peavy better be good or we are f***ed cosidering their salaries.

Edited September 2, 2009 by greg775

[iamshack]

He should of got us Holliday. Now that was an acquisition.

Rios has sucked; Peavy? Are you serious? He hasn't done a thing. That's all about next year hopefully.

And Castro has been average at best.

Pena has been awful. Simply awful. Randy Williams? Was he a minor leaguer in our system or another horrid pickup?

I like KW but his acquisitions have sucked this year.

 

And he could of gotten us Holliday. Would you have wanted Holliday for half a season in exchange for Gordon Beckham? Because that is what St. Louis had to give up for 70 games of Holliday - Brett Wallace, their first round pick in 08'.

You still want Holliday?

[sf_soxfan]

Every one of them underperformed, to make matters worse. At the beginning of the season both Ozzie and Kenny were optimistic we had a mix of youth/veterans in a questionable division. We played middling baseball from the outset and they had to make adjustments for the coming years with that in mind.

[caulfield12]

It's hard to say about Holliday. With our current roster, you would have had to bench or platoon Dye and/or Quentin, and neither move would have made a whole lot of sense at the time those moves were made. Couple that with the Boras connection and the dubious likelihood of signing him in the offseason (although he would seem a good fit to put up numbers at USCF), it's a non-starter as a move.

 

Anyone can look back at a particular year and say, well, if KW had just had the foresight to get Edwin Jackson and insert random RH reliever (Brandon Lyon), we'd have been well-set.

 

KW has to figure out some of the statistical anomalies this year, like why even our best hitters like Beckham struggled so much at home, which should be a launching pad? The weather??? The defense? Execution with RISP and less than two outs. Baserunning in general, although Pods seems like 75% of the problem and I want no part of him as our leadoff hitter again in 2010. The fact is that this was only our 2nd come from behind victory ALL YEAR, we did that routinely in the first half of 2006, the last time we had a consistently devastating offense (the presence of BA notwithstanding).

 

It doesn't seem very likely they'll trade Konerko, and that would be another hit to season ticket sales...because they're not going to get anything at all back for that move but a barrage of Hineybird-esque attack/wolf pack articles from the beat writers. Better to work Tyler Flowers slowly into the rotation at DH, 1B (possibly) and catcher.

 

They really have to decide what to do with Nix, Getz, Ramirez, Beckham, Fields and the infield in general, especially finding the best defensive alignment.

 

There are about 100 different directions they could go, but I'm back in favor of leaving Beckham at 3B or moving him to 2B (but not short). If we could find a stellar defense-first SS (names like Adam Everett or Wilson come to mind), we SHOULD be fine....but that puts a ton of pressure on Quentin and Rios to perform next season, as they'll have to pick up the slack.

Edited September 2, 2009 by caulfield12

[WCSox]

Ok, you can have four starters with those numbers or very close to those numbers (as the Sox have done several times in the past few seasons) and a 5th starter who is around 1.36-1.40. The big four in 05 were obviously way low on WHIP, and I think even in 2008 they were all 1.34 or lower. McCarthy/Hernandez in 05 averages out to 1.36.

 

Going into this season, what did you expect from Contreras and Colon?

 

I expected Colon to eventually flame out, Richard or Poreda to take over the #4 spot, and Contreras to be up and down (mostly the latter) at the #5 spot. I also expected Buehrle, Floyd, and Danks to pitch well enough to keep this team in contention. And I was more or less correct about that.

 

What did you expect the Sox to do when they're in the bottom half of the league in attendance and are losing advertising and luxury suite revenue due to the recession? Spend $50 million on starting pitching?

 

You can't expect the Sox to have 2005-like rotation every season. Even when they spend their asses off (2006), the results don't always materialize. The depth that the Sox had last year is also the exception for the good teams, not the norm. Most of the big-spending teams have four solid starters and an unknown at the back. Some of the lower-payroll teams only have two solid starters. I don't think that the Sox having "only" three in a re-tooling year is unreasonable. Especially with the offense and bullpen that they had last season that was supposed to continue through this year.

 

[greg775]

Because that is what St. Louis had to give up for 70 games of Holliday - Brett Wallace, their first round pick in 08'.

You still want Holliday?

 

No, I like Beckham, but I would think their fans are thrilled with the move even though they gave up their top pick.

Especially if they make the WS. s***, he probably likes St. Looie and may give them the hometown discount to keep him over the Yankees/Bosox/Mets.

 

If Rios continues to suck, though, I'd have taken about anybody over him. He came with less than glowing recommendations (i.e. lazy tag) and if he is a bust I hope we can dump him and his salary to some stupid team, if the salary keeps the Sox from acquiring good players. If the salary doesn't matter, fine. We didn't give up anythign to get him except the money.

Edited September 2, 2009 by greg775

[caulfield12]

Greg, Rios isn't going ANYWHERE.

 

He has been a bust for one month, but there's no way in hell he's tradeable right now, so forget that notion.

 

It was a calculated gamble/risk that hasn't worked so far, but KW won't pull the plug on it yet. Yes, the downward trend is alarming, but he has a solid career track record, he's the answer to our CF defensive problems and he should be in the prime of his career.

 

Konerko has been a bust the second half, should we trade him too? Beckham because of his poor month of August where he hit in the .220's?

 

AJ came with less than glowing recommendations and we won a WS with him, you can say that about many players the White Sox have taken chances on over the last 20-25 years.

[Dick Allen]

So if the vast majority of the players played relatively well, why are you trashing Kenny for putting a bad product on the field? That makes no sense.

 

I hate to break this to you, but you can't have All-Stars at every position. The Sox were below-average at CF and 2B for the vast majority of this season. Oh, and they had below-average #4 and #5 pitchers. Big freaking deal - EVERY team has holes. The rest of the lineup was far from bad on paper.

 

If the vast majority of your players play up to reaonable expectations and your team is still below average in a terrible division, the guy putting the team together who claims he has a WS contender deserves some grief. No? KW did say Lillibridge would steal 40 bases. His evaluations were off a bit.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Dick Allen

[WCSox]

If the vast majority of your players play up to reaonable expectations and your team is still below average in a terrible division, the guy putting the team together who claims he has a WS contender deserves some grief. No?

 

Quentin, Dye, Linebrink, and Dotel played up to reasonable expectations? Not really. The middle of the Sox lineup didn't hit at all during August. Is that an example of playing up to expectations?

Edited September 3, 2009 by WCSox

[joeynach]

We were in contention, and in my opinion, arguably placed with the most talent to win this division as late as 4 weeks ago. Then the middle of our lineup decided to stop hitting and our bullpen decided to stop getting outs. There was little or nothing to be done at that point.

 

I'm not sure what you expected to be done. If the players just completely drop off a cliff, after the trade deadline, what is the GM supposed to do?

 

Read the silver lining!!! Build a team around proven high performing guys who do it year in and year out, without the tendency to go into dismal prolonged slumps, or wear down in the 2nd half. Do it with guys u aren't just rolling the dice and hoping and praying they work out with. Do it without obvious holes, without glaring weaknesses, without guys that u cant stand to see come into the game.

[witesoxfan]

Read the silver lining!!! Build a team around proven high performing guys who do it year in and year out, without the tendency to go into dismal prolonged slumps, or wear down in the 2nd half. Do it with guys u aren't just rolling the dice and hoping and praying they work out with. Do it without obvious holes, without glaring weaknesses, without guys that u cant stand to see come into the game.

 

If only the Sox could spend $150 million.

 

Come on dude, even the Red Sox went through a stretch like the Sox did this year, and they have more talent, better minor league depth, and better major league depth to work with.

[Dick Allen]

Quentin, Dye, Linebrink, and Dotel played up to reasonable expectations? Not really. The middle of the Sox lineup didn't hit at all during August. Is that an example of playing up to expectations?

As I pointed out, Quentin was hurt, something that shouldn't shock anyone. Dye probably should have been an all star but faded. Guess who faded last year as well? Linebrink was horrid after his injury last year. What do you expect this year? How has Dotel not pitched to expectations? What exactly were you expecting? The game is getting younger. I read somewhere where only 4 non DHs 36 years old or older will have enough AB to qualify for a batting title.

 

Until a week ago, the White Sox were scoring more than 5 runs a game in August. When the team is constructed as it is, and we have seen it for years now, it is prone to long stretches of little scoring. Why should anyone be surprised? We have seen it for many, many years including 2005. Beckham struggling killed this team. I'm not trying to single him out, he's been great and he's a rookie so he will have more struggles than he will in the future. He's one guy as good as he is, who will only get better. Unlike so many White Sox supposed phemons, he knows how to play baseball. He's the one guy who can keep them out of something as prolonged. Once the heart of the order runs its course and is replaced with younger, swifter, players, and it doesn't always take at least 3 hits to score some of them from first, while it might not be as potent when everything is clicking, the offense will be more consistent.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Greg Hibbard]

Forget about Beckham or Podsednik, who were huge unexpected boons that no one could have reasonably predicted or expected anything from on opening day.

 

Given the roster we had on April 1, why were we put in a position where the only way we could've gotten to this point - 4 games under .500 - was to HAVE a huge unexpected boon from Beckham and Pods? Without them, this team was initially built to be 72-90.

 

If the central argument is the Dye and Linebrink let this team down to the tune of 10 wins, give me a break. The vast majority of the major pieces produced at their expected levels, and Beckham and Podsednik more than made up for the disappointments of Dye, Linebrink, Pena, etc.

 

This team was really not constructed to contend. We ended up "contending" because of our s***ty division, but come on.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Greg Hibbard

[witesoxfan]

Forget about Beckham or Podsednik, who were huge unexpected boons that no one could have reasonably predicted or expected anything from on opening day.

 

Given the roster we had on April 1, why were we put in a position where the only way we could've gotten to this point - 4 games under .500 - was to HAVE a huge unexpected boon from Beckham and Pods? Without them, this team was initially built to be 72-90.

 

If the central argument is the Dye and Linebrink let this team down to the tune of 10 wins, give me a break. The vast majority of the major pieces produced at their expected levels, and Beckham and Podsednik more than made up for the disappointments of Dye, Linebrink, Pena, etc.

 

This team was really not constructed to contend. We ended up "contending" because of our s***ty division, but come on.

 

Part of the beauty of baseball is that you can add pieces on the fly like that. Had everything worked out the way the Sox wanted it to, they very well could have competed. That would have been with Wise being average in CF (most knew he was not), Quentin atleast putting up respectable numbers, and Fields putting up 30 homers. Neither of those 3 happened.

 

If Pods comes in and fails and Quentin stays healthy and has a huge year again, are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that the team doesn't compete for the division title? Hell, I'd say they'd be closer in the standings and Jim Thome would still be a member of the team.

[WCSox]

As I pointed out, Quentin was hurt, something that shouldn't shock anyone. Dye probably should have been an all star but faded. Guess who faded last year as well? Linebrink was horrid after his injury last year. What do you expect this year? How has Dotel not pitched to expectations? What exactly were you expecting? The game is getting younger. I read somewhere where only 4 non DHs 36 years old or older will have enough AB to qualify for a batting title.

 

Until a week ago, the White Sox were scoring more than 5 runs a game in August. When the team is constructed as it is, and we have seen it for years now, it is prone to long stretches of little scoring. Why should anyone be surprised? We have seen it for many, many years including 2005. Beckham struggling killed this team. I'm not trying to single him out, he's been great and he's a rookie so he will have more struggles than he will in the future. He's one guy as good as he is, who will only get better. Unlike so many White Sox supposed phemons, he knows how to play baseball. He's the one guy who can keep them out of something as prolonged. Once the heart of the order runs its course and is replaced with younger, swifter, players, and it doesn't always take at least 3 hits to score some of them from first, while it might not be as potent when everything is clicking, the offense will be more consistent.

 

So, are you arguing that Kenny shouldn't have signed Konerko, Dye, or Contreras to extensions back in 2005, 2007, and 2006, respectively? Because, you know, they were probably going to peter out in 2009? Should Kenny have taken a pass on Linebrink and Dotel after 2007, and given the heap of dung that comprised the 2007 bullpen a chance to develop and shine in 2009?

 

You can complain all you want in hindsight, but any team built around veterans on the other side of 30 will decline at some point. By acquiring these guys, the Sox had a window of opportunity from '06-'08, and it's apparently shut now. But at least this team had a chance, and actually played well for two of those four years. I'll take that approach over the Ron "The Kids Can Play" Schueler approach any day.

 

I agree that this team needs to get younger. But you're going to have down years when your veterans reach their mid-30's after giving you that window of opportunity to win. Since MLB contracts are guaranteed, it's literally impossible to put an optimal team on the field every year.

 

[Dick Allen]

So, are you arguing that Kenny shouldn't have signed Konerko, Dye, or Contreras to extensions back in 2005, 2007, and 2006, respectively? Because, you know, they were probably going to peter out in 2009? Should Kenny have taken a pass on Linebrink and Dotel after 2007, and given the heap of dung that comprised the 2007 bullpen a chance to develop and shine in 2009?

 

You can complain all you want in hindsight, but any team built around veterans on the other side of 30 will decline at some point. By acquiring these guys, the Sox had a window of opportunity from '06-'08, and it's apparently shut now. But at least this team had a chance, and actually played well for two of those four years. I'll take that approach over the Ron "The Kids Can Play" Schueler approach any day.

 

I agree that this team needs to get younger. But you're going to have down years when your veterans reach their mid-30's after giving you that window of opportunity to win. Since MLB contracts are guaranteed, it's literally impossible to put an optimal team on the field every year.

All I'm saying is this year's record should not surprise anyone. There were many publications that thought it would be even worse. Its not that great of a team. Isn't it KW's responsibilty to field the best team possible? Didn't he think he had a WS contender? If he did, he was pretty wrong, wouldn't you agree?

 

 

[iamshack]

All I'm saying is this year's record should not surprise anyone. There were many publications that thought it would be even worse. Its not that great of a team. Isn't it KW's responsibilty to field the best team possible? Didn't he think he had a WS contender? If he did, he was pretty wrong, wouldn't you agree?

Dick, I am not sure it does surprise a lot of people. I think what many are trying to point out is that we had a veteran team that Kenny gave a shot to win in from about 2005 to 2008. 07' was obviously a complete disaster, but 08' was a surprise. I think a lot of people understand though that 08' and 09' have been big rebuilding or retooling (whatever the hell you want to call it) years. We just so happened to get lucky in that the Tigers are in a similar position to us as a franchise, the Indians are a complete freaking anomaly, and the Twins had their pitching staff fall apart over the past two years. All these things allowed us to compete when we probably should have been focusing on acquiring and developing younger players to form a core for our next run. Well, we've been able to do a lot of that on the fly, because as I said, the division has stunk, the economy has made some very good players available via trade for little in terms of talent, and we have been lucky with many of our acquisitions and draft picks (Q, Alexei, Floyd, Beckham).

 

Simply because we didn't get it done this year, but are still massively ahead of schedule, how does that somehow make things worse off?

 

Of course KW is going to claim we have a contending team, and we actually have. Sure, he might give the fanbase the best-case scenarios on some players, but that's because our fanbase is sometimes a bit slow to recognize and accept what the limitations of this franchise actually are.

[WCSox]

All I'm saying is this year's record should not surprise anyone. There were many publications that thought it would be even worse. Its not that great of a team. Isn't it KW's responsibilty to field the best team possible? Didn't he think he had a WS contender? If he did, he was pretty wrong, wouldn't you agree?

 

Wouldn't you agree that it's also Kenny's job to sell his teams to the public? Obviously, he can't be candidly honest about his team's flaws without jeopardizing his organization's bottom line.

 

It was reasonable to think that he could've won the AL Central with this team. It wasn't that different than last year's team, and the flaws that they did have were addressed by Peavy and Rios down the stretch.