LittleHurt05 Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Alex Rios = Brian Anderson Tony Pena = Ryan Bukvich Brandon Allen = Ryan Howard Mike MacDougal = Jon Papelbon Clayton Richard = Andy Pettite Wow, what a horrible job by our GM this year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 (edited) All I'm saying is we all thought BA sucked, and Rios is statistically close to, although better than, BA. However, and I can't stress this enough, no one was paying BA 60 f***ING MILLION $$$. Rios has been on a downward trend for 3 years. He will probably play better, but the fact that he is capable of such suckage, even if for a season, means he's not worth the kind of money on his contract. Especially when the Sox cry poor as much as they do. Great post. The reason I currently dislike Rios big time is he failed miserably to do what the Sox brought him in to do this year. Help us win the average Central Divsion. Has he had one big hit yet? Why acquire him and pay him the big bucks when in past offseasons we've cried poor and not signed cfs way better than No hit Rios? Edited September 4, 2009 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Sep 4, 2009 -> 11:42 AM) Alex Rios = Brian Anderson Tony Pena = Ryan Bukvich Brandon Allen = Ryan Howard Mike MacDougal = Jon Papelbon Clayton Richard = Andy Pettite Wow, what a horrible job by our GM this year Well, you can easily confuse Ryan Howard with Brandon Allen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Sep 4, 2009 -> 11:42 AM) Alex Rios = Brian Anderson Tony Pena = Ryan Bukvich Brandon Allen = Ryan Howard Mike MacDougal = Jon Papelbon Clayton Richard = Andy Pettite Wow, what a horrible job by our GM this year You forgot Chris Young = Roberto Clemente Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Alex Rios ... you are no Chet Lemon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyuen Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 QUOTE (chw42 @ Sep 4, 2009 -> 11:33 AM) I'll admit it, before this year, I thought he was overrated. I used the same arguments you're using. Never hit many homers, blah blah blah. The thing is, the guy hits a bunch of doubles, has the ability to steal 30 bases, and plays great defense in center field of all places. His stats might have looked ordinary last year. He almost hit .300 and hit only 15 home runs. But guess what? He was worth 4.5 wins above average. Any player above 4 wins is all-star caliber. If you want to compare him to any players...Let's just say he was better than Curtis Granderson by .7 wins. He was 4.5 wins above average in 2007 and 2.9 above in 2008. This line from BP sums it up "Rios is a complementary player miscast as a star." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 4, 2009 -> 12:12 PM) Alex Rios ... you are no Chet Lemon. It's funny how you will not stop criticizing Rios, who admittedly hasn't done much in the very short amount of time he's been here. But you go out of your way to defend Wise. One guy has had a history of success and has the tools to be a very good player for years to come and the other guy has sucked his entire career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (docsox24 @ Sep 4, 2009 -> 12:13 PM) He was 4.5 wins above average in 2007 and 2.9 above in 2008. This line from BP sums it up "Rios is a complementary player miscast as a star." Actually he was 5.5, so I actually underestimated him...lol. http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playe...amp;position=OF His market value was $24 million last year. Edited September 4, 2009 by chw42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 He was 4.5 wins above average in 2007 and 2.9 above in 2008. This line from BP sums it up "Rios is a complementary player miscast as a star." Well according to Hard Ball Times your numbers are not accurate. http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/blog_art...bout-alex-rios/ This season, he's hitting .262/.316/.423 in 475 plate appearances, which includes 14 home runs. With an average UZR in the field, his numbers are definitely down from where they were. He's been worth just one win above replacement so far, which prorates to about 1.5 wins over a full season, compared to 5.5 wins in 2008, 4.6 in 2007, and 3.3 wins in 2006. The most notable difference this year for most baseball fans has been his offense. He's been slightly below average this year, with -1.7 batting runs (park corrected version). The last three years he's been between 12 and 25 runs above average. 2008 5.5 wins, 2007 4.6 wins, 2006 3.3 wins Add all of that up and Rios, who is right in the middle of his prime, is projected to be worth 31.5 runs above replacement. A three-win player like Rios on the free agent market would command somewhere between $12-$15 million per year in the short-term. Did I mention that Rios is making an average of $11.7 million over the next 5 years, and the Blue Jays hold a 2015 option for $13.5 million? In other words, Alex Rios is a bargain. The Blue Jays shouldn't be looking to dump his salary on the waiver wire. They should be looking to build around this guy for the duration of his valuable contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 I think it's pretty clear. If Rios hits anywhere near what he is capable of hitting (.850 OPS) and steals some bases, he's easily worth what he is paid. If he hits like he has this year, he is not. It's that simple. All we can do is hope he comes back next year and hits, continues to play good defense, and runs the bases well for us. If he can do those things, he'll be the least of our worries going forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 (edited) It's funny how you will not stop criticizing Rios, who admittedly hasn't done much in the very short amount of time he's been here. But you go out of your way to defend Wise. One guy has had a history of success and has the tools to be a very good player for years to come and the other guy has sucked his entire career. Fair point. When next season starts, I'm sure I'll shut up about Rios and give him until late May to prove he can or cannot be better than Swisher. The reason I currently am down on Rios is I expected to win the s***ty Central this season and I bought into the argument Rios and Peavy would be the keys and might even propel us to the WS. The common perception was if we could keep it close and win the Central even (we were 2 out just a couple weeks ago) our rotation would be murder in the playoffs and we could rely more on just Thornton and Carrasco and not those other bullpen hacks. we were a team allegedly set up to make a strong postseason run with that Peavy and Mark-led rotation and a real center fielder finally. Rios provided no spark, so as a fan yes I am overblaming him. I also was down on Beckham when he got off to the lousy start, but I for the most part shut up, waiting since he's so young. He's rebounded nicely. Rios ... I expected him to be the missing key and indeed there were several games that we were in, where he made KEY OUTS where I happened to be watching. On Wise, this year despite being buried by many many fans, he's given me 3 good moments. THE CATCH, the hit versus the Yankees and even yesterday throwing the Cub out at the plate. Yes it was a shallow fly, but again that was a key play. I like Wise; don't like Rios right now. I'll force myself to try to shut up on Rios and wait until next Memorial Day to bury or praise him. Edited September 4, 2009 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyuen Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Well according to Hard Ball Times your numbers are not accurate. My numbers were from Baseball Prospectus. I guess they have different ways to evalute players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YonderLaroche Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 You guys are nuts comparing Rios to Anderson. This guy is a career .280 hitter, will put up 20HR and 80+ RBI with GREAT defense in CF. There's not many in baseball that can do that and damn near impossible to get without paying BIG money for (Torrie Hunter, Rowand, Damon). He's having the worst year of career so far, but he's still got a month to get them numbers respectable for him.. so calm down and follow Brian Anderson in Pawtuckett or wherever his careers gonna end at in AAA, because HE cannot hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Id love to see the BP link because 2.8 is drastically different than both Fangraphs and hardball times. Fangraphs: 5.5 Baseball Times: 5.5 BP: 2.8 One of those things just doesnt belong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 It's very simple. Rios was good, but now sucks. Wise always sucked. BA sucked, but was much more of a viable option as he provides as good of defense as Rios, sucks as much with the bat, and costs pennies compared to Rios, but again, he sucks. All in all, Rios was not an answer, shows that, day in and out, and now we're paying him as much as PK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 So in 2003 when Konerko sucked do you think we should have gotten rid of him? He hit .234, obp of .305, ops of .704 1 bad season doesnt make a career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 4, 2009 -> 05:28 PM) The reason I currently am down on Rios is I expected to win the s***ty Central this season and I bought into the argument Rios and Peavy would be the keys and might even propel us to the WS. The common perception was if we could keep it close and win the Central even (we were 2 out just a couple weeks ago) our rotation would be murder in the playoffs and we could rely more on just Thornton and Carrasco and not those other bullpen hacks. we were a team allegedly set up to make a strong postseason run with that Peavy and Mark-led rotation and a real center fielder finally. You have the wrong perspective on things, and then some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Sep 4, 2009 -> 11:58 AM) All in all, Rios was not an answer, shows that, day in and out, and now we're paying him as much as PK. So you've already decided he will never put up good numbers again, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Bosley Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 First time poster here, and thanks to everyone at this forum for providing some very lively and entertaining analysis lo these many years! As for Mr. Rios, I'm not going to focus too much on what he's done (or not done) thus far with the White Sox, nor am I going to dwell on his offensive trends over the past few years. No, for me, as we cast our eye forward a bit, if we can pencil this guy into the centerfield slot for the next few years and get Gold Glove "caliber-like" defense from him, along with 20+ homers and 30+ stolen bases, I'll be quite satisfied. That level of production is pretty much where his game is at the moment, and if he happens to tap into his long-proclaimed "potential" and becomes, say, a 30/40 type of player, even better. But I'll be happy with his level of production of the past couple of years, even if we're overpaying for it a bit. Bottom line is I'm certain there will be other more pressing needs during the next few years other than Rios that will require more attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 4, 2009 -> 12:14 PM) First time poster here, and thanks to everyone at this forum for providing some very lively and entertaining analysis lo these many years! As for Mr. Rios, I'm not going to focus too much on what he's done (or not done) thus far with the White Sox, nor am I going to dwell on his offensive trends over the past few years. No, for me, as we cast our eye forward a bit, if we can pencil this guy into the centerfield slot for the next few years and get Gold Glove "caliber-like" defense from him, along with 20+ homers and 30+ stolen bases, I'll be quite satisfied. That level of production is pretty much where his game is at the moment, and if he happens to tap into his long-proclaimed "potential" and becomes, say, a 30/40 type of player, even better. But I'll be happy with his level of production of the past couple of years, even if we're overpaying for it a bit. Bottom line is I'm certain there will be other more pressing needs during the next few years other than Rios that will require more attention. Great post. Welcome aboard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YonderLaroche Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Sep 4, 2009 -> 12:58 PM) It's very simple. Rios was good, but now sucks. Wise always sucked. BA sucked, but was much more of a viable option as he provides as good of defense as Rios, sucks as much with the bat, and costs pennies compared to Rios, but again, he sucks. All in all, Rios was not an answer, shows that, day in and out, and now we're paying him as much as PK. His avg is around .260, he will have 20 hrs and 80rbi at end of season. and yea, it will be worst season of his career. BA couldn't match that is Aball. Edited September 4, 2009 by b-Rye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 4, 2009 -> 06:00 PM) Great post. The reason I currently dislike Rios big time is he failed miserably to do what the Sox brought him in to do this year. Help us win the average Central Divsion. Has he had one big hit yet? Why acquire him and pay him the big bucks when in past offseasons we've cried poor and not signed cfs way better than No hit Rios? I do not dislike Rios. I belieev his history has been underperformance. He had a god year and then signed a big contract and isn't exactly showing anyone he earned it. If Rios can be motivated we may have made a huge steal, but being anything but a plus player is a waste of money that the Sox can't afford to be just throwing away. Rios is an above average or even better defender and has speed. He can hit, but struggles. I hope that a fresh start at ST 2010 is what he needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Sep 4, 2009 -> 12:58 PM) It's very simple. Rios was good, but now sucks. Wise always sucked. BA sucked, but was much more of a viable option as he provides as good of defense as Rios, sucks as much with the bat, and costs pennies compared to Rios, but again, he sucks. All in all, Rios was not an answer, shows that, day in and out, and now we're paying him as much as PK. I didn't think it was possible for you to top "Ben Gordon is every bit as good as Brandon Roy." But you somehow did it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I think he got two hits tonight, which is a start. He's another guy who passes the "look test." He looks good in a uniform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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