5th Starter in 2010?

[ILMOU]

Why are you in such a rush to push a young, raw prospect who hasn't pitched an inning in the majors straight into the rotation? Hudson will only be 23 in January and doesn't have anything near the arm strength to throw 200+ innings at this point. Even if the Sox didn't have Freddy as a #5 option, I'd seriously consider going with somebody like Torres and pitching Hudson out of the 'pen initially. When you have a rotation of Peavy/Buehrle/Floyd/Danks, there's no point in rushing a young prospect who isn't ready for a full work load as a starter.

 

Hudson threw 161 innings in '08. He can do close to 180 this year, if they want him to, and close to 200 innings next year as a logical progression. His youth and workload should NOT be an impediment to him winning the 5th starter job next year. It should be determined by his performance.

 

[ThunderBolt]

Exactly, pusing Hudson past 200 is a natural progression for the kid. Given his minor league pedigree he deserves to have a shot at the #5 spot.

[WCSox]

Hudson threw 161 innings in '08. He can do close to 180 this year, if they want him to, and close to 200 innings next year as a logical progression. His youth and workload should NOT be an impediment to him winning the 5th starter job next year. It should be determined by his performance.

 

Performance? Hudson is a 22-year-old prospect who's thrown a whole two innings in the majors. How does pitching well at AA translate into an effective #5 in the bigs? He's been good in AAA this year, but far from great. I also don't understand the need to throw Hudson in the rotation when our bullpen is currently in shambles and might be in even worse shape next year if Jenks is dealt. Hudson may very well help this team more as a 7th or 8th inning guy than a starter. He's certainly not going to be able to start for an entire season if 180 IP is his ceilling. As was noted earlier in this thread, he's going to throw more pitches per inning in the majors, so even 180 IP is something of a stretch.

 

Hudson should definitely get the chance to compete for the #5 spot in ST. But Kenny would be insane to rely on this guy next year. And he may be more valuable in our bullpen next year anyway. At the very least, the Sox need a veteran backup plan. A dirt-cheap Freddy Garcia provides an ideal safety net.

 

I like Hudson and think that he's going to be an effective part of this rotation in the next couple of years. But you guys need to stop hanging all over this kid's jock. Wait until he's actually done something in the bigs. Some of you seem to be penciling him into the rotation prematurely, with little regard for the disaster in the bullpen or what's good for Hudson in the long-term.

Edited September 7, 2009 by WCSox

[witesoxfan]

This is starting to remind me strongly of the Brandon Allen threads. Are we really going to start devaluing Dan Hudson as a prospect just to justify putting Freddy Garcia into the rotation? Do we really need to break down every good thing that comes along?

 

There may be people devaluing him, I don't know...I haven't read every post. The fact of the matter is that Dan Hudson has 26 innings in AAA and the majors, and a little more seasoning is not going to hurt. If you go into next season with Garcia as the 5th and Hudson as the 6th, getting innings in the minors, the Sox will not lose a ton of production. And then, if either Garcia or Hudson force the Sox to use Hudson as the #5, it will happen.

 

I also do not see 200 innings as the next logical step in his IP progression. 180 is about perfect, as it's a step up but isn't huge.

[Dick Allen]

Exactly, pusing Hudson past 200 is a natural progression for the kid. Given his minor league pedigree he deserves to have a shot at the #5 spot.

Name some rookie pitchers who throw 200 innings. Then tell me in all seriousness that Hudson is in their category. Its fine to love prospects, but good God man, get real. Hudson seems to be a nice prospect. But 200 innings in the major leagues next year? Brandon Allen is down to .200 with 21k in 50 AB. Maybe he's never was the answer at 1B for the White Sox for the next 10 years.

[southsider2k5]

There may be people devaluing him, I don't know...I haven't read every post. The fact of the matter is that Dan Hudson has 26 innings in AAA and the majors, and a little more seasoning is not going to hurt. If you go into next season with Garcia as the 5th and Hudson as the 6th, getting innings in the minors, the Sox will not lose a ton of production. And then, if either Garcia or Hudson force the Sox to use Hudson as the #5, it will happen.

 

I also do not see 200 innings as the next logical step in his IP progression. 180 is about perfect, as it's a step up but isn't huge.

 

That's how I would see it. You know his pitches per inning is going to go up. So even accounting for that 180 is a nice step up from his current workload.

[ThunderBolt]

5th starters don't generally throw 200 innings. In fact, 180 would fall right along with what the majority of you expect from Hudson.

[WCSox]

One question that isn't being answered in this thread is why some people are so excited about throwing Hudson into a rotation already stocked with studs and semi-studs, when there's crap for talent in the bullpen. That mentality makes about as much sense as Hank Steinbrenner ordering Joe Girardi to make Joba Chaimberlain a starter last year, when the Yankees had no talent outside of Rivera in their bullpen. The Sox will lose Dotel in the off-season, they may lose Jenks, and will be relying on Linebrink, Pena, Carrasco, Randy Williams, and Thornton. If Jenks is dealt and Linebrink doesn't return to early 2008 form, the Sox are screwed. Because there's no money left over to offer a veteran another Dotel- or Linebrink-like multi-year deal.

 

Hudson's incorporation into this team shouldn't be about making Hudson a starter immediately (even if he is ready) or to make the starting rotation as super bad-ass as humanly possible. It should be about addressing the needs of the pitching staff as a whole. Unless Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd, or Danks goes down with an injury, that need will be in the bullpen.

Edited September 7, 2009 by WCSox

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Yeah, I think Hudson just might be one of the answers we're looking for in the pen for 2010. Then if something happens to one of our starters, we can put Hudson into the rotation and stretch him out.

 

I don't see why Hudson would have to spend the full year as a starter to properly develop either. Working on the side with Coop while getting to know AL hitters shouldn't hurt him.

 

And BTW, just think about this: next year, if we bring back Freddy as a #5 and he's healthy (which he should be), then we'll have 5 guys in rotation capable of pitching 200+ innings for us. Add in a very effective LR in DJ Carrasco. If we keep Jenks then we've got our closer, and Thornton is our primary lefty and 8th inning guy. If Hudson can step up and fill out that late-inning righty setup role, then the first 6 innings are taken care of and so are most of the 8th and 9th innings. That means we can look at both Pena and Linebrink as 7th inning guys instead of relying on them as late go-to guys. Pick up a lefty specialist and we might actually end up with a well-rested and above-average bullpen next year.

[Balta1701]

There are 2 reasons why you'd want to keep a guy as a starter in the minors rather than putting him in the pen.

 

1. You need him to get innings because he's working on his secondary stuff (think, Aaron Poreda)

 

2. You need him to get innings to build up his arm (Think say John Danks right when we got him, where his arm quit in the 2nd half of 2007).

 

There's some reason to think that Hudson has already worked a fair # of innings since he's been in the 150 range the last couple years, although obviously MLB innings are more difficult. No one here has argued that he needs extra time to work on his stuff. Building up his arm would be a benefit, but it's not like we're talking about a guy who's never pitched 100+ innings before.

 

I think the big benefit for him developmentally might be the chance to start dealing with MLB hitters.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

As I see it, 2010 is when the window of contention that we've been building for officially opens. IMO, Freddy in the rotation with Huddy in the pen gives us the best chance of winning in 2010.

[Balta1701]

As I see it, 2010 is when the window of contention that we've been building for officially opens. IMO, Freddy in the rotation with Huddy in the pen gives us the best chance of winning in 2010.

And I'm not sure that it doesn't give us the best chance of winning in 2011 too.

[iamshack]

I'm all for bringing back Freddy. Let Hudson start in ST, but I wouldn't even tell him he is competing for the job. I would let him know right out of the gate that he is starting the season at Charlotte.

 

Let Freddy start out as the 5th starter. He won't be needed a ton in the first 5-6 weeks, which is fine. Meanwhile, our bullpen usuallly fares pretty well in April and Mays due to the cold weather in the Cell, so I think we can live with Hudson starting in Charlotte instead of working out of our pen.

 

Monitor Hudson's progress in Charlotte and if he shows that he is too advanced for the league, go ahead and bring him up and throw him in the pen. Keep him there until Freddy stumbles or until 2011, when you can hopefully hand the starting job over to Hudson.

Edited September 8, 2009 by iamshack

[Balta1701]

Let Freddy start out as the 5th starter. He won't be needed a ton in the first 5-6 weeks, which is fine.

I hate using the offday as the 5th starter. Especially early in the season.

[beck72]

Yeah, I think Hudson just might be one of the answers we're looking for in the pen for 2010. Then if something happens to one of our starters, we can put Hudson into the rotation and stretch him out.

 

I don't see why Hudson would have to spend the full year as a starter to properly develop either. Working on the side with Coop while getting to know AL hitters shouldn't hurt him.

 

And BTW, just think about this: next year, if we bring back Freddy as a #5 and he's healthy (which he should be), then we'll have 5 guys in rotation capable of pitching 200+ innings for us. Add in a very effective LR in DJ Carrasco. If we keep Jenks then we've got our closer, and Thornton is our primary lefty and 8th inning guy. If Hudson can step up and fill out that late-inning righty setup role, then the first 6 innings are taken care of and so are most of the 8th and 9th innings. That means we can look at both Pena and Linebrink as 7th inning guys instead of relying on them as late go-to guys. Pick up a lefty specialist and we might actually end up with a well-rested and above-average bullpen next year.

Wouldn't DJ be in set up for Dotel? I think long man could be filled by someone like Torres. With the top 4 SP's the sox will have, the LR won't get much work.

[flavum]

I'm not going to directly respond to some of these posts, but it's an awful idea of putting Hudson in the bullpen next year. Garcia has been a nice surprise, but if your option for a 5th starter is a 34 year old on the downside of his career or a 23 year old rookie that has the possibility of being an ace, I'll take the rookie every time.

 

In my opinion, the Sox wouldn't have brought Hudson up this September unless he's the favorite to be the 5th starter next year. It takes a special pitcher to go from Low A to the majors in the same season. I think the Sox know this guy is ready to start next season with the big club.

 

At the very least, the Sox did Freddy a favor to get him back out there, and he can find a team that will sign him for next year.

[iamshack]

I'm not going to directly respond to some of these posts, but it's an awful idea of putting Hudson in the bullpen next year. Garcia has been a nice surprise, but if your option for a 5th starter is a 34 year old on the downside of his career or a 23 year old rookie that has the possibility of being an ace, I'll take the rookie every time.

 

In my opinion, the Sox wouldn't have brought Hudson up this September unless he's the favorite to be the 5th starter next year. It takes a special pitcher to go from Low A to the majors in the same season. I think the Sox know this guy is ready to start next season with the big club.

 

At the very least, the Sox did Freddy a favor to get him back out there, and he can find a team that will sign him for next year.

 

Why? Why is it that you will take the rookie every time? Do you think Hudson has the stones to go punch for punch with Jon Lester in Boston like Garcia did? Do you think Hudson has the stones to go into Yankee Stadium and get a quality start against that Yankee lineup? Do you think Hudson has the stones to pitch against the Red Sox for the second time in 10 days and quiet their bats again?

 

Not trying to be a jerk, just trying to get you to elaborate on your opinion a bit more.

 

I understand the desire to go with the hotshot rookie - we're all excited to see what he can do - but if Freddy wants to come back, and is willing to do so on a $1-2 million contract with some incentives, then there is no reason not to bring him back.

[flavum]

Why? Why is it that you will take the rookie every time? Do you think Hudson has the stones to go punch for punch with Jon Lester in Boston like Garcia did? Do you think Hudson has the stones to go into Yankee Stadium and get a quality start against that Yankee lineup? Do you think Hudson has the stones to pitch against the Red Sox for the second time in 10 days and quiet their bats again?

 

Not trying to be a jerk, just trying to get you to elaborate on your opinion a bit more.

 

I understand the desire to go with the hotshot rookie - we're all excited to see what he can do - but if Freddy wants to come back, and is willing to do so on a $1-2 million contract with some incentives, then there is no reason not to bring him back.

 

I think you take the rookie because when you have Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd, and Danks, you can afford to carry a high-ceiling rookie as your 5th. Do I think Hudson can compete with the big boys? To be completely honest, I've seen the man pitch a total of two innings. I'm basing my opinion on his outstanding stats, and the fact that he rose through the entire system in one season. I think the Sox wouldn't have brought him up and added him to the 40-man unless they already had it in their minds that he's ready to compete with anyone in the league.

 

But if it came down to Hudson in the Sox bullpen or starting at AAA, I'd rather he keep starting.

[ThunderBolt]

Exactly, having a front four of Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd and Danks is the kind of insurance policy that would allow us to take a chance on a rookie near the back end. Given what we know about Hudson it’s a worthwhile risk to take.

[iamshack]

I think you take the rookie because when you have Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd, and Danks, you can afford to carry a high-ceiling rookie as your 5th. Do I think Hudson can compete with the big boys? To be completely honest, I've seen the man pitch a total of two innings. I'm basing my opinion on his outstanding stats, and the fact that he rose through the entire system in one season. I think the Sox wouldn't have brought him up and added him to the 40-man unless they already had it in their minds that he's ready to compete with anyone in the league.

 

But if it came down to Hudson in the Sox bullpen or starting at AAA, I'd rather he keep starting.

 

And what if he fails? What if he is absolutely terrible and shows he needs to go back to Birmingham and work on things? What if he gets injured?

 

Then what is the plan?

[flavum]

And what if he fails? What if he is absolutely terrible and shows he needs to go back to Birmingham and work on things? What if he gets injured?

 

Then what is the plan?

 

Anyone in the rotation can get hurt at any time. It's part of the game. Quite frankly, you worry about it then. They may have Torres in the pen next year. He could be moved into the rotation. Brandon Hynick? Ely? Harrell? Pick someone up in a trade.

 

Who knows, maybe Freddy will be back. I'm just guessing what I think the Sox will do, and I think Hudson is a strong possibility for a spot in the rotation next year.

[Balta1701]

Just a reminder...there was a report that Freddy has a cheap (like $1 mil) option for next year. $2 million in bonuses for innings pitched.

[iamshack]

Anyone in the rotation can get hurt at any time. It's part of the game. Quite frankly, you worry about it then. They may have Torres in the pen next year. He could be moved into the rotation. Brandon Hynick? Ely? Harrell? Pick someone up in a trade.

 

Who knows, maybe Freddy will be back. I'm just guessing what I think the Sox will do, and I think Hudson is a strong possibility for a spot in the rotation next year.

 

If you bring back Freddy then you have the depth to sustain an injury. I don't think it's something you can "worry about then." Look at what happened to the Red Sox this year.

 

I think the best move is to prepare for at least one guy missing significant time and prepare that way in any reasonable fashion available.

[WCSox]

I'm not going to directly respond to some of these posts, but it's an awful idea of putting Hudson in the bullpen next year. Garcia has been a nice surprise, but if your option for a 5th starter is a 34 year old on the downside of his career or a 23 year old rookie that has the possibility of being an ace, I'll take the rookie every time.

 

No, an awful idea is condensing all of your pitching talent into your starting rotation, and relying on guys like Linebrink, Pena, and Williams to hold leads. A pitching staff without balance is going to lose a lot of games in the 7th, 8th, and 9th innings.

 

If the Sox had a bullpen like they did going into last season, I'd be a lot more receptive towards giving Hudson a shot in the rotation. But the Sox are absolutely desperate for a cheap, dominant middle reliever. Even if Hudson out-pitches Freddy in March, I'd still prefer to put Hudson in the pen.

 

In my opinion, the Sox wouldn't have brought Hudson up this September unless he's the favorite to be the 5th starter next year. It takes a special pitcher to go from Low A to the majors in the same season. I think the Sox know this guy is ready to start next season with the big club.

 

I don't see the logic in that conclusion. One could easily argue that the Sox brought up Hudson because (1) the bullpen currently sucks and (2) they want to use him in the bullpen next year. If Hudson is ready to take over the #5 spot, why isn't he preparing for that role by starting now?

 

Edited September 8, 2009 by WCSox

[caulfield12]

KW really needs to find/identify our 3-4 best young relieving prospects and send them all to the AFL.

 

I'm guessing that list would include Nunez, Santeliz, Ely, Shirek, Harrell, Omogrosso, Nathan Jones would be really an outside thought, Francisco Hernandez....whoever the organization believes the best suited are, get them all lots of looks against the best competition out in AZ.

 

Hudson should be rested, obviously.

 

The other two spots, you can decide between Viciedo (maybe they will want him to take some time off, but it's possible they keep pushing him), CJ Retherford, Jordan Danks, Shelby or Gartrell possibly...up to KW.

 

It seems we really need to find at least 1-2 relievers internally, and that hasn't happened this decade that we've produced them from our minor league system. Recently, only Russell and Wasserman come to mind, and both those guys had their serious ups and downs, although Wasserman was reliable for one-half season in 2007 when there was no pressure on the team.

 

It's going to take at LEAST one or two guys like that panning out, because the money's not there for the bullpen (unless we trade Jenks and split that money into 2-3 younger relievers), leadoff, 5th starter, etc.

 

I would guess we'd have to be prioritizing the bullpen, LH power and leadoff (coming from CF/LF, Pods or Figgins or Crawford or whatever name you throw out there)...fifth starter is the luxury item now, but definitely not Top 3.