5th Starter in 2010?

[Balta1701]

The team's AFL roster was announced 2 weeks ago.

 

Viciedo, Danks, Justin Cassel, Jonnie Long, Henry Mabee and Jacob Rasner and infielder C.J. Retherford.

[caulfield12]

Matt Long or Jhonny Gomez?

 

Who is Mabee? Is he related to Dubee? (just kidding...)

 

And since when was Rasner (Rangers) considered a prospect these days?

 

Wonder if KW thought of Hynick, or it was already too late...I'm sure they can change again, last year Gartrell was supposed to go, I think, and someone else (Danks?) went in his place? Maybe my memory's just bad.

[southsider2k5]

Just a reminder...there was a report that Freddy has a cheap (like $1 mil) option for next year. $2 million in bonuses for innings pitched.

 

Which is reason enough to have Garcia as your #5 starter until proven otherwise.

[ThunderBolt]

These are some of the realistic in-system options to take spots in the pen next year. Torres, Hynick, F Hernandez, Line, Nunez, and Egbert. We can also assume that KW will make some waves in the free agent market as well. All of these arms have enough promise to make a one or two inning impact from Hudson somewhat negligible. His true impact comes from being stretched out to 5-plus innings. Also, add Garcia as a long-reliever to this pen, and we see a similar positive impact.

[witesoxfan]

These are some of the realistic in-system options to take spots in the pen next year. Torres, Hynick, F Hernandez, Line, Nunez, and Egbert. We can also assume that KW will make some waves in the free agent market as well. All of these arms have enough promise to make a one or two inning impact from Hudson somewhat negligible. His true impact comes from being stretched out to 5-plus innings. Also, add Garcia as a long-reliever to this pen, and we see a similar positive impact.

 

I'd say the pen is pretty well set, aside from a small move here or there, unless Williams can deal Linebrink. Jenks, Thornton, Linebrink, Pena, Carrasco, Torres/Nunez, and a lefty.

[WCSox]

These are some of the realistic in-system options to take spots in the pen next year. Torres, Hynick, F Hernandez, Line, Nunez, and Egbert. We can also assume that KW will make some waves in the free agent market as well. All of these arms have enough promise to make a one or two inning impact from Hudson somewhat negligible. His true impact comes from being stretched out to 5-plus innings. Also, add Garcia as a long-reliever to this pen, and we see a similar positive impact.

 

These are AAA-quality pitchers. As 2007 showed, you can't stock a bullpen with minor league yahoos who can't get major league hitters out and expect positive results.

 

People need to get rid of the notion that middle relief and setup roles aren't important. There's a reason that guys like Linebrink, Scot Shields, and J.J. Putz got big contracts in recent years.

 

[ILMOU]

Performance? Hudson is a 22-year-old prospect who's thrown a whole two innings in the majors. How does pitching well at AA translate into an effective #5 in the bigs? He's been good in AAA this year, but far from great. I also don't understand the need to throw Hudson in the rotation when our bullpen is currently in shambles and might be in even worse shape next year if Jenks is dealt. Hudson may very well help this team more as a 7th or 8th inning guy than a starter. He's certainly not going to be able to start for an entire season if 180 IP is his ceilling. As was noted earlier in this thread, he's going to throw more pitches per inning in the majors, so even 180 IP is something of a stretch.

 

Hudson should definitely get the chance to compete for the #5 spot in ST. But Kenny would be insane to rely on this guy next year. And he may be more valuable in our bullpen next year anyway. At the very least, the Sox need a veteran backup plan. A dirt-cheap Freddy Garcia provides an ideal safety net.

 

I like Hudson and think that he's going to be an effective part of this rotation in the next couple of years. But you guys need to stop hanging all over this kid's jock. Wait until he's actually done something in the bigs. Some of you seem to be penciling him into the rotation prematurely, with little regard for the disaster in the bullpen or what's good for Hudson in the long-term.

 

Yes, performance. This month, in ST, and wherever else they can evaluate him. This doesn't preclude bringing Freddy back at $1M, but no way do you GUARANTEE Freddy the 5th starter job. If Freddy insists that he has to be a starter to re-sign, then he'll be overplaying his hand. You're not RELYing on Hudson, anymore than anyone else. There should, and likely will, be a competition next ST. Of course, all the bullpen guys are important, but the player who is the best of the bunch (Hudson, Garcia, Torres), should be a starter, because that's where they can be the most benefit to the team. It's not that complicated.

[son of a rude]

Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com reports that the White Sox may pick up the option on Freddy Garcia for 2010.

The option calls for a $1 million base salary with $2 million in incentives, so there isn't a great deal of risk attached to it. Garcia hasn't impressed with his velocity thus far, but he has tossed three straight quality starts against tough competition (two against Boston, one against the Yankees). Over his first four starts, the 33-year-old right-hander is 1-2 with a 4.76 ERA and 18/6 K/BB ratio in 22 2/3 innings.

Source: FOXSports.com

 

looks like freddy is in line to get the job.

Edited September 8, 2009 by son of a rude

[WCSox]

Yes, performance. This month, in ST, and wherever else they can evaluate him. This doesn't preclude bringing Freddy back at $1M, but no way do you GUARANTEE Freddy the 5th starter job.

 

I never said that Freddy should be "guaranteed" the starting job. But he should definitely be the front-runner, as he's actually an experienced starter who is currently pitching well in that role. At the very least, Freddy is great insurance.

 

Of course, all the bullpen guys are important, but the player who is the best of the bunch (Hudson, Garcia, Torres), should be a starter, because that's where they can be the most benefit to the team. It's not that complicated.

 

That's just not true, especially on this team. The Sox are much better off with a question mark like Freddy or Torres at the #5 spot and a stronger bullpen. Not to mention that Hudson himself is a question mark with no major league experience as a starter and an arm not yet conditioned for a full 200-inning season as a starter.

 

Pitching staffs need balance. Otherwise, guys like Rivera, Nathan, and K-Rod would never pitch in the bullpen. Hell, look at the 2005 Sox. They didn't have an effective #5 for the majority of the season. Yet, I'll argue that they don't win a WS without strong contributions from Cotts and Politte.

 

Edited September 8, 2009 by WCSox

[Harry Chappas]

Bring back Garcia and put him as your number 5 and Hudson is there when/if somebody gets hurt.

 

I think everyone will agree that Hudson potentially is much better than Garcia. I see Garcia turning into a Paul Byrd, Gil Meche type of guy that can get by with cunning and gile if he needs to forthe next few years.

 

What is the harm in bringing Garcia back?

 

 

 

[ILMOU]

I never said that Freddy should be "guaranteed" the starting job. But he should definitely be the front-runner, as he's actually an experienced starter who is currently pitching well in that role. At the very least, Freddy is great insurance.

 

 

 

That's just not true, especially on this team. The Sox are much better off with a question mark like Freddy or Torres at the #5 spot and a stronger bullpen. Not to mention that Hudson himself is a question mark with no major league experience as a starter and an arm not yet conditioned for a full 200-inning season as a starter.

 

Pitching staffs need balance. Otherwise, guys like Rivera, Nathan, and K-Rod would never pitch in the bullpen. Hell, look at the 2005 Sox. They didn't have an effective #5 for the majority of the season. Yet, I'll argue that they don't win a WS without strong contributions from Cotts and Politte.

 

I disagree. The starter will pitch 2-3 times as many innings as the long reliever. Any objective analysis will tell you that's more important to the team's well being.

[ThunderBolt]

These are AAA-quality pitchers. As 2007 showed, you can't stock a bullpen with minor league yahoos who can't get major league hitters out and expect positive results.

 

People need to get rid of the notion that middle relief and setup roles aren't important. There's a reason that guys like Linebrink, Scot Shields, and J.J. Putz got big contracts in recent years.

And all three of those players that you named, are currently failing catastrophically in their roles. Not really the best example you could have given me. In fact, this is more of a testament to the overvaluation of most bullpen arms. It interest me how you’ve just written off half of our system in one sentence, especially, given that some of these guys have just as much experience, and just as good a chance at succeeding in a bullpen role as Dan Hudson does. In fact, you know what separates Hudson from all those players (perhaps, barring Egbert?) Hudson has a pretty clear future in a rotation

[WCSox]

I disagree. The starter will pitch 2-3 times as many innings as the long reliever. Any objective analysis will tell you that's more important to the team's well being.

 

A 7th or 8th inning reliever will appear in an average of three games per week, while a starter will appear only once. A bad starter affects a team every fifth day. A bad bullpen affects it every day.

 

And all three of those players that you named, are currently failing catastrophically in their roles. Not really the best example you could have given me. In fact, this is more of a testament to the overvaluation of most bullpen arms. It interest me how you’ve just written off half of our system in one sentence, especially, given that some of these guys have just as much experience, and just as good a chance at succeeding in a bullpen role as Dan Hudson does. In fact, you know what separates Hudson from all those players (perhaps, barring Egbert?) Hudson has a pretty clear future in a rotation

 

No, what separates Hudson from those other pitchers is that he was the talent to dominate at the major league level. Pitchers who can't get major league hitters out have no place in a major league bullpen. Given that Kenny just dealt Poreda and Richard, there's a lot less pitching talent in our farm system than you seem to believe.

 

[ThunderBolt]

A 7th or 8th inning reliever will appear in an average of three games per week, while a starter will appear only once. A bad starter affects a team every fifth day. A bad bullpen affects it every day.

 

 

 

No, what separates Hudson from those other pitchers is that he was the talent to dominate at the major league level. Pitchers who can't get major league hitters out have no place in a major league bullpen. Given that Kenny just dealt Poreda and Richard, there's a lot less pitching talent in our farm system than you seem to believe.

Torres, Nunez, Hernandez, Link, Egbert have 24 major league innings combined between them. What gives anyone the right to just write them off immediately?

[WCSox]

Torres, Nunez, Hernandez, Link, Egbert have 24 major league innings combined between them. What gives anyone the right to just write them off immediately?

 

I'm not writing them off, but until they show some actual evidence that they can get major league hitters out, they don't deserve a spot on the 25-man roster in April. Why in the heck would you stock a bullpen with a bunch of unknowns? Don't you remember 2007? At least Hudson has dominated enough in the minors to suggest that he can get the job done at the highest level. And he's getting the chance to actually show that now.

Edited September 8, 2009 by WCSox

[ILMOU]

A 7th or 8th inning reliever will appear in an average of three games per week, while a starter will appear only once. A bad starter affects a team every fifth day. A bad bullpen affects it every day.

 

Yes, and their performance on that day is far more likely to determine a win or a loss. We're not going to agree, so this is pointless.

 

My main points are that there should be a competition, and that every inning matters. BTW, I DO like the idea of bringing back Freddy given his cost, and I have no reason to believe that he can't be effective in the pen, if that's where he winds up.

[WCSox]

Yes, and their performance on that day is far more likely to determine a win or a loss.

 

Yes, just like El Duque and his 88 ERA+ and 1.46 WHIP were more crucial to the 2005 Sox's success than Cliff Politte and Neal Cotts.

 

[ILMOU]

Yes, just like El Duque and his 88 ERA+ and 1.46 WHIP were more crucial to the 2005 Sox's success than Cliff Politte and Neal Cotts.

 

Wow, I guess this one example proves that you're right and I'm wrong. I'll go away with my tail between my legs now.

 

I'd point out that 5th starter Randy Wells is the main reason that the Cubs aren't 20 games below 500, but then I'd be severely cherry picking, wouldn't I?

 

Quit while you're behind.

 

[WCSox]

Wow, I guess this one example proves that you're right and I'm wrong. I'll go away with my tail between my legs now.

 

I'd point out that 5th starter Randy Wells is the main reason that the Cubs aren't 20 games below 500, but then I'd be severely cherry picking, wouldn't I?

 

You'd be incredibly remiss and borderline-disingenuous to omit the fact that Wells has the highest ERA+ and second-lowest WHIP in the rotation and, therefore, really isn't a #5 right now. Unless, of course, your argument hinges on the assumption that Peavy and Buehrle will have Zambrano- and Dempster-like down years in 2010.

 

Quit while you're behind.

 

Your attempt at demonstrating your intellectual superiority leaves much to be desired.

Edited September 8, 2009 by WCSox

[Balta1701]

Let's keep it civil please...

[ILMOU]

I'm done with you, WC. You cherry picked - I called you on it.

 

Deal with it.

 

[WCSox]

I'm done with you, WC. You cherry picked - I called you on it.

 

Deal with it.

 

No, I provided evidence that a strong bullpen is more important than a dominant 5th starter on a team with four other dominant starters. The Cubs don't have four other dominant starters right now.

 

Edited September 8, 2009 by WCSox

[Steve9347]

What's Freddy's contract situation?

[BigSqwert]

What's Freddy's contract situation?

His contract with this product is over after 2010.

[WCSox]

What's Freddy's contract situation?

 

IIRC, a $1M option for next year with another $1M in incentives.