5th Starter in 2010?

[whitesoxfan101]

Garcia will be earlier in the season, but I can't see him staying healthy and being effective the entire year (one of the two will go wrong), so Dan Hudson will end up in the spot later on.

[Dick Allen]

The White Sox like to have rookies come out of the bullpen, because that way Ozzie can determine their match-ups instead of the other manager. Its an easier way to break in. I'm sure Freddy will be back as long as he doesn't get hurt. Assuming Peavy, Buehrle, Danks and Floyd are all still with the White Sox next year and healthy, the only way Hudson beats out Freddy is if he has a huge edge in spring training.

[Whitewashed in '05]

What!? No Jeff Marquez???

 

It looks like Freddy will take the 5th if he continues to pitch like he has with Hudson getting more time in AAA and spot starting.

 

I'm impressed at what Freddy has done quickly adjusting to pitching without his mid-nineteens fastball. We all know he's a gamer.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Does anyone want to give me a proper explanation for Garcia over Hudson, other then nostalgia for nostalgia’s sake? Why wouldn’t we want our top pitching prospect as our #5, rather than an aging, injury-prone vet who seems to be getting by more on guile then stuff?

Here are 15 reasons.

 

1. Because "new" isn't always better.

2. Because counting on rookies can easily lead to disappointment since there is no track record to speak of.

3. Because Freddy does have that aformentioned track record.

4. Because Freddy has his fastball back and his breaking stuff is coming back, and we all saw in 2006 what he can do with the same stuff he has now.

5. Because this "injury-prone" comment is actually a gross misrepresentation, as prior to undergoing TJ, from which he has now recovered, Freddy has worked at least 200IP in every season since 2001.

6. Because Danny Hudson has the stuff and command to be a huge asset for us while gaining experience out of the bullpen.

7. Because Danny Hudson is not exactly Phil Hughes or Tommy Hanson and it's not like we're exchanging a #1/#2 for a #5. Freddy is still capable of being a #3 and if he stays healthy he should at least be a #4 out of the rotation.

8. Because it's better to have extra depth than none at all.

9. Because Carlos Torres and Brandon Hynick are probably not anywhere as good as Sox fans think they are, and if they are going to be considered options then John Ely is right there with them too.

10. Because although Freddy does indeed continue to get older whereas young players are frozen in time, Freddy is also 34 and not exactly in his late 30's or 40's.

11. Because there's no reason to fear Freddy's age to begin with. People look at age for pitchers generally because they are concerned about injuries and loss of velocity. Well, Freddy has already had his injury and has come back from it, and his velocity is already down from where it had been in his prime. But Freddy has actually gained velocity and gained command through his recovery, and I have no idea why an 88-92mph fastball version of Freddy would be expected to drop velocity as he gets stronger.

12. Because a $1M, one-year deal for what could be one of the best 5th starters in baseball is not exactly a waste of money.

13. Because even if something happens and Freddy gets lit up next year, we can dump him easily without having to pay him to play for someone else.

14. Because Freddy knows American League hitters and how to pitch to them.

15. Because Freddy has game balls.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[WCSox]

16. Freddy is dirt-cheap veteran talent for a team that's going to be stretched financially going into next season.

17. Freddy has a good history and relationship with the Sox, who are literally family to him.

 

Good post.

 

[ThunderBolt]

I don't think Freddy's history has any place in the discussion, we need to orient ourselves toward the future. Dan Hudson is that guy. He's clearly major league ready, clearly has better stuff then Garcia, and would stand to benefit from being in the same rotation as Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd, and Danks. I said this before and i'll say it again. This organization stands to benefit a lot more from Hudson experience sucess at the major league level then it does Fat Freddy. I like Freddy, he has a place here next year, but to give him a spot becasue of some misplaced piece of affection or tribute would be a flawed way of running a team.

[Dick Allen]

I don't think Freddy's history has any place in the discussion, we need to orient ourselves toward the future. Dan Hudson is that guy. He's clearly major league ready, clearly has better stuff then Garcia, and would stand to benefit from being in the same rotation as Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd, and Danks. I said this before and i'll say it again. This organization stands to benefit a lot more from Hudson experience sucess at the major league level then it does Fat Freddy. I like Freddy, he has a place here next year, but to give him a spot becasue of some misplaced piece of affection or tribute would be a flawed way of running a team.

Does he have better stuff than Phil Hughes or Homer Bailey? . Its best for Hudson to work him in slowly. He rose a lot this season. You love those guys. The major leagues is a bigger jump than Hudson has taken yet. Throwing him in the fire usually doesn't work right away. See Danks, John. See Floyd, Gavin. Working them in through the bullpen is smart. See Buerhle, Mark. If Freddy is healthy, he's one of the most dependable 5th starters around for a very cheap price. That is as long as they are trying to win, which I assume is the goal. If it was a rebuilding season, I would agree with you.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Dick Allen

[beck72]

No it isn't. He threw over 160 innings last year. What makes you think he couldnt throw 180 this year and even more the next?

Hudson would be throwing a lot more pitchers per batter in the bigs, as the experienced hitters lay off some of his pitches. That translates to less innings as he would rack up high pitch counts. I know Hudson has done well in each of his stops. But he is only 1 year removed from college. IMO, Hudson has a great future. Easing him into the bigs, such as in a bullpen role, could only help. Throwing him out there too soon, could only hurt. Why take the chance on screwing the kid up if a decent option at #5 exists in Freddy?

 

I don't think the Sox want to see their rookie starting pitchers take a year of lumps [such as with Floyd and Danks and their struggles] if they can go another route. That route exists if Garcia can throw decent.

[ThunderBolt]

Does he have better stuff than Phil Hughes or Homer Bailey? . Its best for Hudson to work him in slowly. He rose a lot this season. You love those guys. The major leagues is a bigger jump than Hudson has taken yet. Throwing him in the fire usually doesn't work right away. See Danks, John. See Floyd, Gavin. Working them in through the bullpen is smart. See Buerhle, Mark. If Freddy is healthy, he's one of the most dependable 5th starters around for a very cheap price. That is as long as they are trying to win, which I assume is the goal. If it was a rebuilding season, I would agree with you.

See, I think this is a really interesting question. Are we rebuilding? By a lot of measures this was a rebuilding year, and a preliminary sketch for 2010 shows only two gaping holes to fill (Corner OF, Pen), at the same time, given the success we’ve experience with what I like to refer to as the, “rapid rebuild.” I don’t think having Hudson as our #5 is really out of the question anymore. Also, you know how I love my power arms, DA.

[beck72]

I don't think Freddy's history has any place in the discussion, we need to orient ourselves toward the future. Dan Hudson is that guy. He's clearly major league ready, clearly has better stuff then Garcia, and would stand to benefit from being in the same rotation as Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd, and Danks. I said this before and i'll say it again. This organization stands to benefit a lot more from Hudson experience sucess at the major league level then it does Fat Freddy. I like Freddy, he has a place here next year, but to give him a spot becasue of some misplaced piece of affection or tribute would be a flawed way of running a team.

I think Dan Hudson stands to benefit from perfecting his pitches and approach to major league hitters first in the bullpen and then in the rotation. That would probably be in both the Sox best interests and his. Rather than burning his arm out, trying to have him go 180 innings next year, taking it a little slow with a 22 yr old, one yr removed from college sounds like a decent plan. Esp. if Freddy can keep pitching the way he has.

 

And if the sox are going by the experience of their recent young pitchers, like Floyd, Danks and Richard, they probably don't want Hudson to struggle for one year in the rotation learning on the job like they did.

[Balta1701]

Also...if Freddo does stay healthy, he could pitch himself either in to legit trade bait or in to a Type B free agent.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

See, I think this is a really interesting question. Are we rebuilding? By a lot of measures this was a rebuilding year, and a preliminary sketch for 2010 shows only two gaping holes to fill (Corner OF, Pen), at the same time, given the success we’ve experience with what I like to refer to as the, “rapid rebuild.” I don’t think having Hudson as our #5 is really out of the question anymore. Also, you know how I love my power arms, DA.

Okay, explain these things to me:

1. How does Hudson have better stuff than Freddy. I counted a better fastball, that's it.

2. How is Hudson a power arm but Freddy is not? Freddy works about 88-92 when he's not taking something off, Hudson reportedly about 91-94. Freddy has an assortment of breaking stuff that can be nasty, mostly that curve and splitter. Hudson has supposedly a pretty good change and a slider which personally I know nothing about, but I've never seen it rated highly. In the FutureSox interview Hudson basically says he uses his fastball to both get ahead and put people away, with his change being a primary weapon against lefties. And Hudson himself doesn't even think he's a power arm, he actually says he's in between being that and a finesse guy.

 

I think you're way overrating Hudson and way underrating Freddy. Hudson is not your typical power arm, nor has he shown better all-around stuff than Freddy. Hudson appears to be a great find for us and he has enough to succeed in the Majors, but to expect him to come out and out-pitch a guy like Freddy as a rookie is nuts. Have you seen some of the swings Yankees and Red Sox hitters were taking at Freddy's breaking stuff? If Hudson shows me something like that I'll be all for throwing him right into the rotation. Otherwise, Hudson is a confident pitcher who throws strikes with an above-average fastball, and that sounds like the kind of guy we could use in our bullpen. Hudson says in his interview that he hasn't been using his curve as anything other than a show-me pitch every once in a while, so put him in the bullpen and let him work on that while he's there. Plus in the pen he can pitch off his fastball and changeup which is what he's most confident in anyway.

 

Just because Hudson is ready to pitch in the Majors doesn't mean he's ready to get MLB hitters out 3 times through the lineup on a consistent basis. I like Hudson a lot too but I think we're getting carried away here.

[ThunderBolt]

Okay, explain these things to me:

1. How does Hudson have better stuff than Freddy. I counted a better fastball, that's it.

2. How is Hudson a power arm but Freddy is not? Freddy works about 88-92 when he's not taking something off, Hudson reportedly about 91-94. Freddy has an assortment of breaking stuff that can be nasty, mostly that curve and splitter. Hudson has supposedly a pretty good change and a slider which personally I know nothing about, but I've never seen it rated highly. In the FutureSox interview Hudson basically says he uses his fastball to both get ahead and put people away, with his change being a primary weapon against lefties. And Hudson himself doesn't even think he's a power arm, he actually says he's in between being that and a finesse guy.

And I think you're highly overrating Freddy Garcia. Freddy is a fraction of the pitcher he used to be. He has lost the majority of his stuff, while maintaining a decent feel for his breaking stuff, and admirable placement on his fastball. He still tends to leave the ball up high in the zone, but has experience success due to some great location work, and some fantastic game calling from the catcher. The way I see it this: Daniel Hudson is a kid who is sky rocketing up this system. He'd experienced success at every level, and right now, he reached the pinnacle. He's in the big leagues. Hudson has the raw stuff to get anybody out. His fastball is a plus-pitch, his slider is filthy, and everything else in his repertoire seems to be developing quite nicely. It's natural to assume Hudson is going to struggle at some point either this year or next year, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, it's to be expected The simple question is this: say both Freddy and Hudson have good years next year: who has more value to this organization? The 34-year old World Series hero with maybe another year in front of him, or the 22-year old fireball with his whole future ahead of him? I think the answer is easy, even if Hudson fails I think the answer is easy. Call me a blind optimist, but I think Hudson has a hell of a future in this rotation. Putting him back a year in exchange for Fat Freddy is delaying the inevitable.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Thunderbolt

[son of a rude]

Okay, explain these things to me:

1. How does Hudson have better stuff than Freddy. I counted a better fastball, that's it.

2. How is Hudson a power arm but Freddy is not? Freddy works about 88-92 when he's not taking something off, Hudson reportedly about 91-94. Freddy has an assortment of breaking stuff that can be nasty, mostly that curve and splitter. Hudson has supposedly a pretty good change and a slider which personally I know nothing about, but I've never seen it rated highly. In the FutureSox interview Hudson basically says he uses his fastball to both get ahead and put people away, with his change being a primary weapon against lefties. And Hudson himself doesn't even think he's a power arm, he actually says he's in between being that and a finesse guy.

I think you're way overrating Hudson and way underrating Freddy. Hudson is not your typical power arm, nor has he shown better all-around stuff than Freddy. Hudson appears to be a great find for us and he has enough to succeed in the Majors, but to expect him to come out and out-pitch a guy like Freddy as a rookie is nuts. Have you seen some of the swings Yankees and Red Sox hitters were taking at Freddy's breaking stuff? If Hudson shows me something like that I'll be all for throwing him right into the rotation. Otherwise, Hudson is a confident pitcher who throws strikes with an above-average fastball, and that sounds like the kind of guy we could use in our bullpen. Hudson says in his interview that he hasn't been using his curve as anything other than a show-me pitch every once in a while, so put him in the bullpen and let him work on that while he's there. Plus in the pen he can pitch off his fastball and changeup which is what he's most confident in anyway.

 

Just because Hudson is ready to pitch in the Majors doesn't mean he's ready to get MLB hitters out 3 times through the lineup on a consistent basis. I like Hudson a lot too but I think we're getting carried away here.

 

Doesn't seem like you know much about Hudson. His slider is above average and is what he uses to get people out. At this point, I would say he has better stuff that Freddy. His fastball hit 95 on the gun when he pitched. Freddy rarely clocks into the 90's. I think you are underrating him. His numbers in the minors were disgusting and he outmatched most of the top pitching prospects that he faced.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

And I think you're highly overrating Freddy Garcia. Freddy is a fraction of the pitcher he used to be. He has lost the majority of his stuff, while maintaining a decent feel for his breaking stuff, and admirable placement on his fastball. He still tends to leave the ball up high in the zone, but has experience success due to some great location work, and some fantastic game calling from the catcher. The way I see it this: Daniel Hudson is a kid who is sky rocketing up this system. He'd experienced success at every level, and right now, he reached the pinnacle. He's in the big leagues. Hudson has the raw stuff to get anybody out. His fastball is a plus-pitch, his slider is filthy, and everything else in his repertoire seems to be developing quite nicely. It's natural to assume Hudson is going to struggle at some point either this year or next year, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, it's to be expected The simple question is this: say both Freddy and Hudson have good years next year: who has more value to this organization? The 34-year old World Series hero with maybe another year in front of him, or the 22-year old fireball with his whole future ahead of him? I think the answer is easy, even if Hudson fails I think the answer is easy. Call me a blind optimist, but I think Hudson has a hell of a future in this rotation. Putting him back a year in exchange for Fat Freddy is delaying the inevitable.

I disagree on Freddy losing his stuff. It looks to me like he's getting it back as he gets stronger.

 

I've yet to see this filthy slider from Hudson. If he gets a start then I'll make sure to watch it.

 

If both Freddy and Hudson have good years next year, of course Hudson has more value to the organization going forward. But that's not the point. If we let Freddy go then we've got Torres, Ely, Hynick, Egbert, etc. as our next option if someone goes down. Hudson has the fastball and control to do well out of the bullpen, and I could even see him filling out that setup role for us while getting experience. Then if someone goes down we can put Hudson in the rotation instead of relying on the pitchers named above.

 

I disagree that we'd be holding Hudson back by starting him off in the pen. This isn't another McCarthy. With BMac the guy didn't have the fastball and he had to get his change and curve over for strikes in order to work off that fastball. Hudson can go out there with one pitch, locate, and get hitters out in the process, so putting him in the pen isn't setting him up for failure or holding him back at all IMO, it is allowing him to take advantage of the strongest part of his game and find success with it.

[son of a rude]

I disagree on Freddy losing his stuff. It looks to me like he's getting it back as he gets stronger.

I've yet to see this filthy slider from Hudson. If he gets a start then I'll make sure to watch it.

 

If both Freddy and Hudson have good years next year, of course Hudson has more value to the organization going forward. But that's not the point. If we let Freddy go then we've got Torres, Ely, Hynick, Egbert, etc. as our next option if someone goes down. Hudson has the fastball and control to do well out of the bullpen, and I could even see him filling out that setup role for us while getting experience. Then if someone goes down we can put Hudson in the rotation instead of relying on the pitchers named above.

 

I disagree that we'd be holding Hudson back by starting him off in the pen. This isn't another McCarthy. With BMac the guy didn't have the fastball and he had to get his change and curve over for strikes in order to work off that fastball. Hudson can go out there with one pitch, locate, and get hitters out in the process, so putting him in the pen isn't setting him up for failure or holding him back at all IMO, it is allowing him to take advantage of the strongest part of his game and find success with it.

Read basically all his scouting reports. He has a great slider. Freddy relies more on location now that he has lost velocity on his pitches. I'm not sure how you can say he has better stuff than Hudson just because you haven't seen Hudson pitch.

Edited September 7, 2009 by son of a rude

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Read basically all his scouting reports. He has a great slider. Freddy relies more on location now that he has lost velocity on his pitches. I'm not sure how you can say he has better stuff than Hudson just because you haven't seen Hudson pitch.

FutureSox has his slider as above-average to plus, and yes, I'd like to view it before I call it "great" or "filthy."

 

Freddy has 5 pitches he can throw for strikes and he changes speeds on just about everything. He has a split and a curve that can make very good hitters look foolish and he also uses his change well, although he's still working on getting that pitch down more. I've said this a thousand times, but this is Freddy's Spring Training right now.

 

Of course Freddy relies on location with this fastball, all pitchers do, but few guys can pinpoint a fastball, so keeping the opposition off balance is important, and Freddy does that very well. Freddy doesn't need to throw mid-90's to get hitters out, and Hudson doesn't even do that anyway. The video I saw on him before seeing some of him with the Sox said he was low-90's before fading a little later in the game.

 

As for other scouting reports, I've been reading about Hudson since he came into the system and I've yet to read something that makes him out to be more than a #3 starting prospect which is exactly where FutureSox puts him BTW. Freddy was a #3 pitcher the last time he was healthy, even after having lost velocity on his fastball, because of his repertoire, and so I wouldn't expect to see a rookie Hudson fare any better in 2010 than a healthy Freddy Garcia. And I just did another search on his slider BTW, and the best thing I could find about his slider was the mention that it was a plus pitch grading 60 on an 80 scale (50 is average), but this was also from back when he was at Old Dominion before he came into the organization where they made changes to his delivery. That report also said he was tipping his curveball, which was just a hanger, and that he had no feel for his changeup. So I'll wait and see for myself on that one before I gush about how great and filthy his slider is.

[WCSox]

See, I think this is a really interesting question. Are we rebuilding? By a lot of measures this was a rebuilding year, and a preliminary sketch for 2010 shows only two gaping holes to fill (Corner OF, Pen), at the same time, given the success we’ve experience with what I like to refer to as the, “rapid rebuild.” I don’t think having Hudson as our #5 is really out of the question anymore. Also, you know how I love my power arms, DA.

 

The fact that Kenny added Peavy and Rios to the roster this summer clearly shows that we're not rebuilding in 2010.

 

Garcia in the #5 spot and Hudson in the pen (at least, initially) makes sense on a number of levels. First of all, Freddy's arm strength has increased significantly since March and he's an effective starter right now. He's also an experienced starter who knows how to get major league hitters out, how to pitch out of jams, and and has a better psychological makeup than any rookie. Also, Freddy's option for next year is something like $2 million, which is a godsend for a team that has little to work with in the off-season.

 

Hudson is doesn't have the arm conditioning to throw 200+ innings at this point. He's also incredibly young (22) and inexperienced, and throwing him into the rotation right off the bat isn't going to help his development. It makes a lot more sense, especially with our bullpen currently in shambles and in dire need of a couple cheap and effective arms, to start him out there and let him adjust to the majors. If Freddy continues to pitch well and Hudson lives up to his scouting reports, he very well may become our version of Joba Chaimberlain next year. If Freddy falters, Hudson can take over his spot, like Richard this summer. It's a very low-risk and low-cost scenario.

Edited September 7, 2009 by WCSox

[Quin]

I agree with the opinion of Hudson to the pen (Buehrle, '00) and Freddy stepping in next year as the #5.

 

If only we could give Freddy #3.4.

 

It would look more natural.

[League]

I don't personally like the idea of putting Hudson in the 'pen, how can we be sure that he's capable of pitching on consecutive days or that he'll warm up quickly, he could overstress his arm and end up injuring himself, which is the last thing we need for the kid?

 

I say AAA or MLB rotation for Huddy, let him be insurance in case Freddy f***s up or some one gets injured.

[beck72]

The fact that Kenny added Peavy and Rios to the roster this summer clearly shows that we're not rebuilding in 2010.

 

Garcia in the #5 spot and Hudson in the pen (at least, initially) makes sense on a number of levels. First of all, Freddy's arm strength has increased significantly since March and he's an effective starter right now. He's also an experienced starter who knows how to get major league hitters out, how to pitch out of jams, and and has a better psychological makeup than any rookie. Also, Freddy's option for next year is something like $2 million, which is a godsend for a team that has little to work with in the off-season.

 

Hudson is doesn't have the arm conditioning to throw 200+ innings at this point. He's also incredibly young (22) and inexperienced, and throwing him into the rotation right off the bat isn't going to help his development. It makes a lot more sense, especially with our bullpen currently in shambles and in dire need of a couple cheap and effective arms, to start him out there and let him adjust to the majors. If Freddy continues to pitch well and Hudson lives up to his scouting reports, he very well may become our version of Joba Chaimberlain next year. If Freddy falters, Hudson can take over his spot, like Richard this summer. It's a very low-risk and low-cost scenario.

With four rotation spots sewed up, I'd like to see Hudson be the White Sox version of Jon Papelbon. He very likely will get some time in the late innings this year--a better option than Dotel and Linebrink right now.

[beck72]

I don't personally like the idea of putting Hudson in the 'pen, how can we be sure that he's capable of pitching on consecutive days or that he'll warm up quickly, he could overstress his arm and end up injuring himself, which is the last thing we need for the kid?

 

I say AAA or MLB rotation for Huddy, let him be insurance in case Freddy f***s up or some one gets injured.

Hudson could just as easily overstress his arm throwing 3000 + pitches for a season, compared to some 800 as a reliever.

[ThunderBolt]

This is starting to remind me strongly of the Brandon Allen threads. Are we really going to start devaluing Dan Hudson as a prospect just to justify putting Freddy Garcia into the rotation? Do we really need to break down every good thing that comes along?

[beck72]

This is starting to remind me strongly of the Brandon Allen threads. Are we really going to start devaluing Dan Hudson as a prospect just to justify putting Freddy Garcia into the rotation? Do we really need to break down every good thing that comes along?

I don't think people are "devaluing" Hudson at all. He seems like he has a good future for the sox and could be a solid starting pitcher. I just think that he doesn't need to be moved along so fast, if another cheap, effective option exists. The sox moved Gavin, Danks and Richard to some extent along pretty fast [though with Gavin, he was nearly out of options]. If there is a lesson to be learned from those guys, it might be to start them in the bullpen to learn/ correct a few things before being thrown out there for 6 innings at a time. The sox chose to start Poreda in the bullpen, though they could have put him in the rotation.

 

What I think people are doing is trying to make sure the guy is ready. Who knows for sure. But, besides Gordon, most of the sox prospects haven't had a good track record of being "ready for the Show" and producing right away.

[WCSox]

Are we really going to start devaluing Dan Hudson as a prospect just to justify putting Freddy Garcia into the rotation? Do we really need to break down every good thing that comes along?

 

Why are you in such a rush to push a young, raw prospect who hasn't pitched an inning in the majors straight into the rotation? Hudson will only be 23 in January and doesn't have anything near the arm strength to throw 200+ innings at this point. Even if the Sox didn't have Freddy as a #5 option, I'd seriously consider going with somebody like Torres and pitching Hudson out of the 'pen initially. When you have a rotation of Peavy/Buehrle/Floyd/Danks, there's no point in rushing a young prospect who isn't ready for a full work load as a starter.