Obama Speech on Health Care, 9/9/09

[Rex Kickass]

The end of life counselling sessions are just that, as you say. but there will still be a panel of bureaucrats somewhere deciding just what kind of care and how much of it you get. And if they deny you something that could have saved your life, you have a defacto death panel. Again, you are not focusing on the overall picture, and her true meaning and intent. Must be that R in her party affiliation that prevents that.

 

The end of life counselling sessions refer to covering a consultation about hospice care and other end of care decisions. Consultation about options does not mean decisions are made by anyone.

[Rex Kickass]

I can't get to my copy, but I believe that hr3200 only specificly exempts illegals from receiving health credits or some such thing as that, not from having to get insurance or be covered by it. So it just says that they won't be subsidized. That won't last long.

 

So you have a problem with providing people who can afford to pay for insurance the opportunity to be insured?

[CanOfCorn]

And if Obama gets his way, this is exactly what is going to happen. I don't buy for nano-second that the federal government is going to stomp its feet and costs are going to drop by enough to cover 10/30/45/50/80 million people. This hasn't happened in the history of social programs in this country. Its insane to thing it will happen all of the sudden. We will be paying trillions and trillion in either new taxes or debt if this health care plan happens.

 

Aren't we paying for them anyway? I mean, if they do go to the hospital, don't we, as taxpayers eventually pick up the tab? Maybe not directly...but some hospitals (maybe all hospitals) don't turn anyone needing medical help away. And these people usually don't go to get help until they are well along in whatever problem they have, which leads to more and more costs.

 

So, is the problem that if this bill is passed, we KNOW we are paying taxes for healthcare?

[kapkomet]

And if Obama gets his way, this is exactly what is going to happen. I don't buy for nano-second that the federal government is going to stomp its feet and costs are going to drop by enough to cover 10/30/45/50/80 million people. This hasn't happened in the history of social programs in this country. Its insane to thing it will happen all of the sudden. We will be paying trillions and trillion in either new taxes or debt if this health care plan happens.

VAT. It has to happen. Hell, it might happen even if this doesn't pass, but it's going to. So, what %? Let's start with 12%. Every.Time.Something.Moves.VAT.Baby!

 

[Balta1701]

Rob Miller will probably pass $500k raised on the day by the time you read this post.

[southsider2k5]

What are you talking about? There is a clause leaving them out. That makes it law. That means they have to check. You are asking for something that is already there. Your request is akin to saying the law regarding murder should also have a clause stating "oh, and, if someone DOES murder someone else, make sure you arrest them".

 

If you didn't have a police department to investigate murders, how would you arrest anyone?

[southsider2k5]

Aren't we paying for them anyway? I mean, if they do go to the hospital, don't we, as taxpayers eventually pick up the tab? Maybe not directly...but some hospitals (maybe all hospitals) don't turn anyone needing medical help away. And these people usually don't go to get help until they are well along in whatever problem they have, which leads to more and more costs.

 

So, is the problem that if this bill is passed, we KNOW we are paying taxes for healthcare?

 

Instead there will be zero disinsentive to go the doctors, and the offices will be packed. That will lead to even more costs than ever before.

[Balta1701]

Instead there will be zero disinsentive to go the doctors, and the offices will be packed. That will lead to even more costs than ever before.

You know, the easy answer is to point at the fact that this doesn't happen in the rest of the world...but really, another way of thinking about it, is this really true? I mean, do people like going to the doctor? Do people like taking medicines? We're not exactly talking about giving away plasma TV's here.

 

Do you really need a disincentive to go to the doctor? Are there people just lining up to go there because they can? Or do people go to the doctor because they feel a need to see a doctor because they're something genuinely wrong with them? And if people feel a need to see a doctor, do we really want them to decide not to go because it's too expensive? Typically, the data keeps saying that having them not go winds up costing a lot anyway, because you're not getting treatment for things that can get worse.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Instead there will be zero disinsentive to go the doctors

 

If you are sick you should have access to a doctor. The failure of many people to accept that this should be a fundamental right for all American citizens is what has me so disillusioned by the whole healthcare reform process, and so disillusioned with the vocal, myopic minority of Americans that feel otherwise.

[kapkomet]

If you are sick you should have access to a doctor. The failure of many people to accept that this should be a fundamental right for all American citizens is what has me so disillusioned by the whole healthcare reform process, and so disillusioned with the vocal, myopic minority of Americans that feel otherwise.

People don't go because they are afraid they might actually get stuck for a bill. OH NOES! They have access to doctors now, they just don't want to pay for it. Put them in a government system, now you just paid for it and you just opened up pandora's box.

[lostfan]

Yeah so umm guys you know there is already a 100 page thread on the healthcare debate itself FYI

[FlaSoxxJim]

People don't go because they are afraid they might actually get stuck for a bill. OH NOES! They have access to doctors now, they just don't want to pay for it. Put them in a government system, now you just paid for it and you just opened up pandora's box.

 

It's always "don't want" to pay for it, and never ever "can't" pay for it on your side of the fence, eh?

[CanOfCorn]

Instead there will be zero disinsentive to go the doctors, and the offices will be packed. That will lead to even more costs than ever before.

 

What's worse...waiting for a doctor for a long time or not going at all? I would say the latter.

[kapkomet]

It's always "don't want" to pay for it, and never ever "can't" pay for it on your side of the fence, eh?

Yep. Here's why.

 

As an anecdote before I give my real answer, if you have a heart attack, you get taken to the hospital and you get fixed up. Period. No one even gives a crap who you are or what you do, or anything. It's just done. That will change if this goes through.

 

Directly to your question: Guess what? I've worked in the medical field. If you CAN'T pay, you CAN pay $1.00 a month. That's sufficient to get treatment and a lot of times won't even get you reported to freecreditreport.com - that's a pretty neat deal, actually (yea, that's kind of a smart ass answer on the tail end here, but seriously, payment plans shows a person to be paying and the care centers can't do a thing about it). They CAN'T refuse you care. A lot of people out there DON'T WANT to pay for it at all - but when you GIVE them "insurance" they'll go all right. In droves. There is a subtle difference there, yet it's a major one, and something that will happen. BTW, in all seriousness, I'm glad to see you chime in here, and I will try not to be a Kaperbolistic ™ asshole.

 

[FlaSoxxJim]

BTW, in all seriousness, I'm glad to see you chime in here, and I will try not to be a Kaperbolistic ™ asshole.

 

I've mostly stayed away from 'Busterly threads for more han a year now, because getting too impassioned about stuff here was not doing my mental health any good. If I had the stomach for it anymore, this (US heath care) would be where I'd put some heart into a debate (the environmental debates notwithstanding, because I still have the bruises from beating my head against those walls too).

 

Shame on me though, because I'm not going to get overly into the debate over the best of the bad compromises in US health care reform. I'm one of those certifiable whackjobs that believe health should be a human right and not a privilege. That's a majority opinion according to national as well as international polls, but it's sufficient to make me a left-wing extremist in the current political discourse, so it's not worth discussing my fringe viewpoints too much in mixed company.

[Pants Rowland]

I've mostly stayed away from 'Busterly threads for more han a year now, because getting too impassioned about stuff here was not doing my mental health any good. If I had the stomach for it anymore, this (US heath care) would be where I'd put some heart into a debate (the environmental debates notwithstanding, because I still have the bruises from beating my head against those walls too).

 

Shame on me though, because I'm not going to get overly into the debate over the best of the bad compromises in US health care reform. I'm one of those certifiable whackjobs that believe health should be a human right and not a privilege. That's a majority opinion according to national as well as international polls, but it's sufficient to make me a left-wing extremist in the current political discourse, so it's not worth discussing my fringe viewpoints too much in mixed company.

 

I love smart people. I am officially a FlaSoxxJim fan. I had some pissed off stuff to say, but Jim has saved you and me from my thoughts. Thanks.

[StrangeSox]

People don't go because they are afraid they might actually get stuck for a bill. OH NOES! They have access to doctors now, they just don't want to pay for it. Put them in a government system, now you just paid for it and you just opened up pandora's box.

 

Except that, just like your ZOMG! IT'LL PUT ALL PRIVATE INSURANCE OUT OF BUSINESS!, we have plenty of real world examples we can look at where that just does not happen.

[southsider2k5]

You know, the easy answer is to point at the fact that this doesn't happen in the rest of the world...but really, another way of thinking about it, is this really true? I mean, do people like going to the doctor? Do people like taking medicines? We're not exactly talking about giving away plasma TV's here.

 

Do you really need a disincentive to go to the doctor? Are there people just lining up to go there because they can? Or do people go to the doctor because they feel a need to see a doctor because they're something genuinely wrong with them? And if people feel a need to see a doctor, do we really want them to decide not to go because it's too expensive? Typically, the data keeps saying that having them not go winds up costing a lot anyway, because you're not getting treatment for things that can get worse.

 

Its not about liking going to the doctors office. Its about something that becomes a "right" in people's minds. It is an economic truism that people use more of something the cheaper it costs. It is also a pretty common behavior that if people feel they are entitled to something they will do it just out of spite. I am guessing the only thing that keep the rest of the world from flooding the doctors office is the six months waits, which according to you guys won't happen here, so I am not sure what exactly is going to change proven human behavior here.

[BigSqwert]

It is also a pretty common behavior that if people feel they are entitled to something they will do it just out of spite.

Like showing up at a President's speech with an AK-47 hanging over your shoulder?

[NorthSideSox72]

Turns out Illinois Republican House Rep John Shimkus walked out of the speech early.

 

Not as bad as the shout-out, but still inappropriate and unprofessional. This isn't a baseball game, jackass.

 

I'm now going to go find out where his district is, and see who his likely opponent will be in 2010.

 

[StrangeSox]

He just wanted to beat the traffic.

[HuskyCaucasian]

I'm now going to go find out where his district is, and see who his likely opponent will be in 2010.

ME! jk

[StrangeSox]

http://shimkus.house.gov/index.html

 

From the Fighting 19th. Large southern district that goes heavily Republican.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois%27s_...sional_district

[EvilMonkey]

Like showing up at a President's speech with an AK-47 hanging over your shoulder?

I believe it was an AR-15. Big difference. You can actually hit what you are aiming at with an AR-15, not so easy with an AK-47.

[Rex Kickass]

Turns out Illinois Republican House Rep John Shimkus walked out of the speech early.

 

Not as bad as the shout-out, but still inappropriate and unprofessional. This isn't a baseball game, jackass.

 

I'm now going to go find out where his district is, and see who his likely opponent will be in 2010.

 

That is precedented. I think about 20 congressmen walked out of a State of the Union address before.