StrangeSox Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (Cknolls @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 10:22 AM) So was he lying to make it seem like a larger problem in New Hampshire? He said something like "30 million uninsured citizens" instead of using the 46M with the more ambiguous "Americans" which includes migrants and aliens (legal and illegal). Where is the lie in this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cknolls Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 10:24 AM) He said something like "30 million uninsured citizens" instead of using the 46M with the more ambiguous "Americans" which includes migrants and aliens (legal and illegal). Where is the lie in this? He said "30 million American citizens". In New Hampshire he said, "46 million Americans". One is wrong. Which is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 10:24 AM) He said something like "30 million uninsured citizens" instead of using the 46M with the more ambiguous "Americans" which includes migrants and aliens (legal and illegal). Where is the lie in this? If you are using different numbers to different audiences, that is pretty telling... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Fact is tens of millions are uninsured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 11:34 AM) If you are using different numbers to different audiences, that is pretty telling... Seriously though what the f***. We've been over this weeks ago. The actual number really isn't important enough to argue about like this, the point is made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (Cknolls @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 11:20 AM) Just wondering, are these Scare tactics? or honest debate?: ...Our deficit will grow ...More families will go bankrupt ...More businesses will close ...More Americans will lose their coverage ...And more Americans will die Not sure where you're going with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 08:34 AM) If you are using different numbers to different audiences, that is pretty telling... If he'd said the higher number you'd have complained about that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 08:49 AM) Not sure where you're going with this. It's a Bush comparison, and it's not entirely inaccurate. In either case, you're saying people will die if you don't agree with the policy of the President. One case, it's an Iraqi Mushroom cloud, in the other it's a form saying that your cancer treatment is denied. One of those 2 of course...didn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (Cknolls @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 10:32 AM) He said "30 million American citizens". In New Hampshire he said, "46 million Americans". One is wrong. Which is it? Neither is necessarily wrong. "Americans" is a loosely-defined term, while citizenship is not. I understand and partially agree with the criticisms of the 46M number; that doesn't mean its a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 An incensed White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel went up to GOP Reps. Roy Blunt (Mo.) and Paul Ryan (Wis.) to complain about the outburst. "No president has ever had that happen," Emanuel said. "My advice is he apologize immediately. You know my number." Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cknolls Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 10:48 AM) Seriously though what the f***. We've been over this weeks ago. The actual number really isn't important enough to argue about like this, the point is made. Right. We cannot pay for either number without increasing the deficit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (Cknolls @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 09:06 AM) Right. We cannot pay for either number without increasing the deficit. We can't not do it without increasing the deficit either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 10:48 AM) Seriously though what the f***. We've been over this weeks ago. The actual number really isn't important enough to argue about like this, the point is made. Actually it is pretty important. People are running around just making up numbers and using that as the basis for why we should destroy our current health care system. It is the center of the whole damned debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 10:50 AM) If he'd said the higher number you'd have complained about that too. Honestly, neither of them is true. I find it disturbing that you all now find it OK for the President to use whatever number he feels like at the time, but don't seem to want to question anything else he is telling you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I find it disturbing that many conservatives never question conservative politicians and many liberals never question liberal politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 09:12 AM) Actually it is pretty important. People are running around just making up numbers and using that as the basis for why we should destroy our current health care system. It is the center of the whole damned debate. The thing that makes this difficult is that in the Census data, the Census Dept. only refers to "naturalized citizens" and "Not a citizen" when it discusses the foreign-born population. Looking through their data, it's really hard to decipher to what level they're counting illegal residents in that last category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 09:16 AM) Honestly, neither of them is true. I find it disturbing that you all now find it OK for the President to use whatever number he feels like at the time, but don't seem to want to question anything else he is telling you. The real issue to most of us is...if the number of uninsured is 20 million, 30 million, 40 million, 80 million...no matter what exact number it is, it is a key part of the disaster that is our system. It kills people. It raises prices across the board. You pay what, at least a couple hundred a year in extra taxes to fund ER care for that group? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 $200k already raised for Rep. Wilson's opponent next year. Going in to yesterday, the cash-on-hand was about $250k for Wilson and $50k for his opponent. No idea how much Wilson has raised off of his statement yet. That was a competitive district last time out, Wilson only won 53% of the vote, so that money bomb is certainly hitting a competitive seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 My concerns haven't changed. I don't like the highly government-involved model of this, I don't like the way the cost is being simply funded like any other program, and I don't like that it still allows the insurance companies to screw people in multiple ways. I could care less if the number of uninsured is 30M or 46M, its not really the point. The number would be important if, say, Obama was claiming 30M and it was actually 10,000, or something dramatic like that. But the fact that tens of millions are without it IS a huge problem, that costs ALL OF US money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 11:36 AM) $200k already raised for Rep. Wilson's opponent next year. Going in to yesterday, the cash-on-hand was about $250k for Wilson and $50k for his opponent. No idea how much Wilson has raised off of his statement yet. That was a competitive district last time out, Wilson only won 53% of the vote, so that money bomb is certainly hitting a competitive seat. Queue Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity to give it some publicity and try to raise money for the other guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (mr_genius @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 11:47 AM) Queue Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity to give it some publicity and try to raise money for the other guy. I'm sure that's already happening, we just haven't heard about it yet. But a guy who only won with 53% in a tight district, can't really afford to do what he did. There will be a big chunk of middle-of-the-road voters that will immediately shift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 11:48 AM) I'm sure that's already happening, we just haven't heard about it yet. But a guy who only won with 53% in a tight district, can't really afford to do what he did. There will be a big chunk of middle-of-the-road voters that will immediately shift. not sure it has that much staying power. and if Obama does indeed give health care to illegals, the guy wins easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (mr_genius @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 11:53 AM) and if Obama does indeed give health care to illegals, the guy wins easily. Why is this lie perpetuated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 12:12 PM) Actually it is pretty important. People are running around just making up numbers and using that as the basis for why we should destroy our current health care system. It is the center of the whole damned debate. Not really. Does the underlying point change at all, in any meaningful way whether I tell you 30 million or 40 million? Really, does it? It's big, smelly red herring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Sep 10, 2009 -> 11:54 AM) Why is this lie perpetuated? probably because there is no bill to even go off of and the Democrats like to have loopholes in this kind of stuff. like no checking ID's, ever, for anything (except town halls of course) for the record, I believe Obama and don't think he's lying. Edited September 10, 2009 by mr_genius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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