Obama Speech on Health Care, 9/9/09

[EvilMonkey]

I covered this a few pages ago also, but here's another summary.

 

The bill specifically says that illegal immigrants are excluded from that program. But...at some point, we're going to have a comprehensive immigration solution created, and that solution is not going to involve sending them all back home, whether the anti-immigrant forces like it or not. There is going to be some mechanism to bring them in to the country and put them on a path to citizenship, because otherwise it's indentured servitude.

 

Thus, at some point, they are going to be eligible for any program that is set up. If you try to deliberately exclude them, then there's a catch-22 because suddenly you've given a huge advantage to an employer to hire a former illegal immigrant compared to a naturalized worker, because if you can hire a former immigrant, you don't have to pay the fines if you don't provide them health care. You can't keep them illegal forever, but you also can't exclude them from the system once you find a way to legalize them. Either method hurts the American worker.

I can't get to my copy, but I believe that hr3200 only specificly exempts illegals from receiving health credits or some such thing as that, not from having to get insurance or be covered by it. So it just says that they won't be subsidized. That won't last long.

[southsider2k5]

Guys it is pretty simple. They are exempting illegals because the administration knows in the near future there will be no illegals. They will all be citizens and therefore eligible. That's why there isn't even an effort to find out if someone is here illegally or not.

[lostfan]

If they have the power to determine whether or not you get a specific treatment or drug, do they not have that power, in a round about way? hence the hyperbole.

hy⋅per⋅bo⋅le  /haɪˈpɜrbəli/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [hahy-pur-buh-lee]

–noun Rhetoric. 1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.

2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”

That wasn't hyperbole at all, she was awfully specific (referencing her infant son w/down's syndrome etc.)

[BigSqwert]

Guys it is pretty simple. They are exempting illegals because the administration knows in the near future there will be no illegals. They will all be citizens and therefore eligible. That's why there isn't even an effort to find out if someone is here illegally or not.

[lostfan]

Alpha...hyperbole is very dangerous for a politician. I will quote 41..."Read my lips, no new taxes." That absolutely killed him in 1992. And using the term "death squad" is even more dangerous.

 

I see what you are saying, but at the same time, changing numbers is much different than getting close to calling your President (and sorry Mrs. Palin, Obama IS YOUR President) and the Democrats, a death squadron. What it is is irresponsible.

What was ironic for Bush 41 is that his eventually having to raise taxes ended up being the right thing to do and helped Clinton with the budget in the next decade.

[Balta1701]

Guys it is pretty simple. They are exempting illegals because the administration knows in the near future there will be no illegals. They will all be citizens and therefore eligible. That's why there isn't even an effort to find out if someone is here illegally or not.

The big problem IMO is in the chain of logic - the immigration system is broken - fixing the broken immigration system will cause former illegal immigrants to get health care coverage - therefore we shouldn't fix the health care system.

 

You can use the same logic to go in circles forever. "The immigration system is broken, so we shouldn't fix the broken health care system." "The health care system is broken, so we shouldn't fix the broken immigration system".

[southsider2k5]

The big problem IMO is in the chain of logic - the immigration system is broken - fixing the broken immigration system will cause former illegal immigrants to get health care coverage - therefore we shouldn't fix the health care system.

 

You can use the same logic to go in circles forever. "The immigration system is broken, so we shouldn't fix the broken health care system." "The health care system is broken, so we shouldn't fix the broken immigration system".

 

The logic is we can't afford untold trillions of dollars that we are going to have in the future to pay for the ginorous social programs that weren't going to be too expensive when they were created. Now we are looking at increasing these outlays by even more untold trillions of dollars, and now for people who aren't even citizens of this country, and committed illegal acts just to get here. The 50% of this country that is paying taxes currently can't afford what we are doing now, yet the clamoring is for more. Its that kind of logic that would lead you to buy a new BMW after getting fired from a job.

[Cknolls]

Guys it is pretty simple. They are exempting illegals because the administration knows in the near future there will be no illegals. They will all be citizens and therefore eligible. That's why there isn't even an effort to find out if someone is here illegally or not.

 

 

Bravo.

[Balta1701]

The logic is we can't afford untold trillions of dollars that we are going to have in the future to pay for the ginorous social programs that weren't going to be too expensive when they were created. Now we are looking at increasing these outlays by even more untold trillions of dollars, and now for people who aren't even citizens of this country, and committed illegal acts just to get here. The 50% of this country that is paying taxes currently can't afford what we are doing now, yet the clamoring is for more. Its that kind of logic that would lead you to buy a new BMW after getting fired from a job.

Then what exactly is your answer? You can't deport them all for reasons we've discussed. You can't not cover them for reasons I highlighted a page ago. You can't not fix the health care system and both punish the tens of millions of uninsured and the hundreds of millions who pay for them.

 

The logical endpoint of your argument is that we shouldn't change anything because doing anything will be expensive. Damn right. Which is why a fairly great speaker said a few months ago that "our time of standing pat, of protecting narrow interests and putting off unpleasant decisions -- that time has surely passed." Sitting on our hands and doing nothing is not an option. Magically making the problem disappear is not an option. Fixing the problem we've allowed to grow is the only option.

[southsider2k5]

Then what exactly is your answer? You can't deport them all for reasons we've discussed. You can't not cover them for reasons I highlighted a page ago. You can't not fix the health care system and both punish the tens of millions of uninsured and the hundreds of millions who pay for them.

 

The logical endpoint of your argument is that we shouldn't change anything because doing anything will be expensive. Damn right. Which is why a fairly great speaker said a few months ago that "our time of standing pat, of protecting narrow interests and putting off unpleasant decisions -- that time has surely passed." Sitting on our hands and doing nothing is not an option. Magically making the problem disappear is not an option. Fixing the problem we've allowed to grow is the only option.

 

So instead you are going to punish the hundreds of millions of people who have been doing things right. Wonderful plan.

[Balta1701]

So instead you are going to punish the hundreds of millions of people who have been doing things right. Wonderful plan.

They're already being punished. I know I could certainly use the extra $3000 or so that we're paying a year in added health care costs for our current system compared with the rest of the world.

[NorthSideSox72]

There won't be illegals in the future? You really think any Administration is going to simply throw open the doors and say anyone can come on in? No way that happens.

 

[ThunderBolt]

UPDATE: The tally is up to $100,000 raised by Wilson's opponent.

I'm sure it's going the other way around too. I can't see Wilson's losing anything other than democratic friends for this one.

[StrangeSox]

He won in a pretty narrow margin, so it could easily push some moderates around.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'm sure it's going the other way around too. I can't see Wilson's losing anything other than democratic friends for this one.

When you only get 53%, you need some friends from the other party, and some independents, so losing them is pretty key.

 

[ChiSox_Sonix]

They're already being punished. I know I could certainly use the extra $3000 or so that we're paying a year in added health care costs for our current system compared with the rest of the world.

 

Yup, that's how it's gonna work too. $3000 of extra spending money for everyone!!!

[ThunderBolt]

When you only get 53%, you need some friends from the other party, and some independents, so losing them is pretty key.

At the same time, there's a lot of people on the right who will vote for Wilson simply because he did this. Also, keep in mind Obama is currently, not the most popular guy amongst independents either. I think it's pretty much status-quo for that race, with the issue being that ample amounts of money and attention will be paid to both sides.

Edited September 10, 2009 by Thunderbolt

[StrangeSox]

At the same time, there’s a love of people on the right who will vote for Wilson simple because he did this. Also, keep in mind Obama is currently, not the most popular guy amongst independents either. I think it’s pretty much status-quo for that race, with the issue being that ample amounts of money and attention will be paid to both sides.

 

I would think that the people on the right who would vote for Wilson because of this would vote for whoever had the ® over the (D).

[Balta1701]

Yup, that's how it's gonna work too. $3000 of extra spending money for everyone!!!

If the government tried to raise taxes by the amount that we pay above what everyone else pays for healthcare, the right would absolutely explode. That'd be like a $10 trillion tax increase over 10 years. Conversely, if we could somehow magically switch to the NHS, that'd be the equivalent of a $12 trillion tax cut over 10 years. Yeah, some pay more than others, but really, let's understand how monstrous the numbers we're talking about here actually are.

[ThunderBolt]

I would think that the people on the right who would vote for Wilson because of this would vote for whoever had the ® over the (D).

The question is whether his race being polarized will cause more people to come out to vote. Generally in politics this is rarely the case, but there are exceptions.

[StrangeSox]

If the government tried to raise taxes by the amount that we pay above what everyone else pays for healthcare, the right would absolutely explode. That'd be like a $10 trillion tax increase over 10 years. Conversely, if we could somehow magically switch to the NHS, that'd be the equivalent of a $12 trillion tax cut over 10 years. Yeah, some pay more than others, but really, let's understand how monstrous the numbers we're talking about here actually are.

 

I can only imagine what sort of commentary would be flying around if democrats were actually advocating a single-payer or NHS-style system.

[NorthSideSox72]

The question is whether his race being polarized will cause more people to come out to vote. Generally in politics this is rarely the case, but there are exceptions.

Partially. The other question is, where do the swing votes go? It doesn't matter what the wing nuts think, they will vote for their wing in any case. Its the ones in the middle that make the difference. So any time a candidate is shown doing something stupid, that is coming from one far extreme or the other (and this was pretty out there), it will only hurt them. Now, if he was in a solidly red district and won 70% of the vote previously, then it wouldn't change anything enough to matter. But in a tight race? It matters plenty. People in that district are now ashamed of their representative blundering on the national stage. Some will care, and some will make a shift, but it won't be the lefties or righties.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

If the government tried to raise taxes by the amount that we pay above what everyone else pays for healthcare, the right would absolutely explode. That'd be like a $10 trillion tax increase over 10 years. Conversely, if we could somehow magically switch to the NHS, that'd be the equivalent of a $12 trillion tax cut over 10 years. Yeah, some pay more than others, but really, let's understand how monstrous the numbers we're talking about here actually are.

 

And if Obama gets his way, this is exactly what is going to happen. I don't buy for nano-second that the federal government is going to stomp its feet and costs are going to drop by enough to cover 10/30/45/50/80 million people. This hasn't happened in the history of social programs in this country. Its insane to thing it will happen all of the sudden. We will be paying trillions and trillion in either new taxes or debt if this health care plan happens.

[lostfan]

At the same time, there’s a love of people on the right who will vote for Wilson simple because he did this. Also, keep in mind Obama is currently, not the most popular guy amongst independents either. I think it’s pretty much status-quo for that race, with the issue being that ample amounts of money and attention will be paid to both sides.

Meh those are also people who would never vote for a Democrat under any circumstances.

 

Regarding Obama it's a long time between now and 2012 even though it doesn't seem like it.

[mr_genius]

What are you talking about? There is a clause leaving them out. That makes it law. That means they have to check. You are asking for something that is already there. Your request is akin to saying the law regarding murder should also have a clause stating "oh, and, if someone DOES murder someone else, make sure you arrest them".

 

lol

 

ok