Has a KW mid-season move backfired more than Rios?

[Soxbadger]

Rios wasnt a trade.

 

If you consider acquiring Peavy an F, well thats just ridiculous.

[fathom]

Rios wasnt a trade.

 

If you consider acquiring Peavy an F, well thats just ridiculous.

 

KW was expecting him to be ready to go by the beginning of this month. He wasn't...I stressed 2009 in my comment for a reason.

[SoxPride56]

To answer the opening question, yes, there has been a move that has backfire more then acquiring Rios...that move is NOT trading Dye.

[lostfan]

KW was expecting him to be ready to go by the beginning of this month. He wasn't...I stressed 2009 in my comment for a reason.

The reason for that has nothing to do with the injury Peavy had at the time he was acquired.

[Soxbadger]

You dont judge trades based on 2 months.

 

Or I guess you can, but it is really pretty foolish. Peavy was acquired injured, there was no guarantee that hed pitch an inning this year. Anything he provided this year was bonus.

 

Im sorry if you disagree with that, but it would be like saying every prospect trade is a win for the team getting the MLB player because "The prospect didnt play in the majors that year."

 

Not to mention the players given up for Peavy havent exactly done much for the Padres.

[Lillian]

This entire Rios issue may be even bigger than suggested in this thread. I'm sure that K.W. expected him to turn his subpar season around after getting a fresh start in a new city. Unfortunately, not only has that not happened, but he has completely fallen on his face. This not only has likely killed our chances for post season this year, but it brings into question a few other major concerns for next year.

 

If he could have been expected to produce like his career numbers, he would have filled a couple of holes for the Sox. Obviously, he solves the defensive problem in CF. Moreover, he allows Pods to move to left, where Scotty is not a liability. Additionally, Rios would have provided more speed, another stolen base threat, and lots of extra basehits. His production over his previous 3 seasons averages 44 doubles, 7 triples and 24 stolens bases over a full 162 game campaign. That production coupled with his near .300 average could provide another solid offensive player at the top of the order, perhaps even in the number two hole. That would allow Beckham to bat a little deeper into the heart of the order.

 

A productive Rios would have eliminated the need for K. W. to consider acquiring Figgins. He could have tried to sign Abreu this off season, and the offense would have been set. With a lineup of Pods, a productive Rios, Quentin, Abreu, Beckham, Konerko, A. J., Ramirez and Getz (Nix) this team would have a great balance of speed, power, decent average and even acceptable OBP. However, if Rios is going to be an offensive bust, this team will face a lot of challenges to get ready for next year. The way he has been hitting, he is a number 9 hitter. That in turn means Beckham probably has to stay at the second spot in the lineup. That further means that they will be a little short on power. Adding only Abreu would not provide enough offense to replace both Dye and Thome. The Sox would need to consider other personnel changes, and likely a lot more money.

 

I'll bet that Kenny is very upset, and a little worried. It's one thing for us to calmly proclaim our confidence that Rios will get back on track next year. Unfortunately, Kenny doesn't have that luxury. Now he will have to consider other moves. Moreover Rios' huge contract will constrain any such other possibilities. What a shame. Rios could really have solved a lot of problems, but so far this looks like a big mistake, which also has to weigh heavily on our GM. It certainly isn't his fault, and I hope that fans will place the blame squarely where it belongs if Rios fails to produce.

[southsider2k5]

You dont judge trades based on 2 months.

 

Or I guess you can, but it is really pretty foolish. Peavy was acquired injured, there was no guarantee that hed pitch an inning this year. Anything he provided this year was bonus.

 

Im sorry if you disagree with that, but it would be like saying every prospect trade is a win for the team getting the MLB player because "The prospect didnt play in the majors that year."

 

Not to mention the players given up for Peavy havent exactly done much for the Padres.

 

Well most people don't judge on two months anyways...

[beck72]

Can we stop saying this? I know believing so is convenient because it absolves Rios from being horrendous and Peavy from not pitching in early September, but it's not as if Williams was ignoring 2009.

 

I know it's an excuse because, look at in these terms -- if Rios was performing well and we were within a few games of the division lead with Peavy set to return, would people not say that Williams was thinking of 2009? Of course they would. But now that Rios has looked terrible, we're 6 out of the division, and Peavy isn't pitching, we can conveniently throw out the "[they] were mostly for 2010." Obviously they're important players for 2010 and beyond, but to ignore this season is foolish.

What I'm saying is that the Sox post season plans rest more with what Dye, PK, Quentin, are or are not doing than with Rios and Peavy. The sox were a sub .500 team w/o Peavy and Rios. Blame rests more with the guys who weren't hitting, playing defense or pitching before those 2 were added.

[greg775]

I thought Tizzle's post was excellent. I am trying to not make any new comments about Mr. Rios, just praise those comments I agree with.

[caulfield12]

Awesome line...KW for 2009 gets a big fat F for his trades. At least his non-roster FA signings in Pods and Garcia were excellent.

 

Not to mention Nix. He's been a lifesaver with all the injuries to Getz this year.

 

The question is, and I think I know the answer already...would/could Uribe/Ramirez/Beckham as an infield been more "effective" offensively and defensively than what we actually fielded in 2009? (including Fields and Getz into the equation)

 

Well, hindsight is 20/20, and MOST of the fanbase was ready to let Juan leave because it didn't make sense to pay him $4-6 million to be a back-up, although he DEFINITELY came in handy the last two months of the 2008 season.

Edited September 14, 2009 by caulfield12

[beck72]

Can we stop saying this? I know believing so is convenient because it absolves Rios from being horrendous and Peavy from not pitching in early September, but it's not as if Williams was ignoring 2009.

 

I know it's an excuse because, look at in these terms -- if Rios was performing well and we were within a few games of the division lead with Peavy set to return, would people not say that Williams was thinking of 2009? Of course they would. But now that Rios has looked terrible, we're 6 out of the division, and Peavy isn't pitching, we can conveniently throw out the "[they] were mostly for 2010." Obviously they're important players for 2010 and beyond, but to ignore this season is foolish.

What Rios' acquisition was also supposed to do was to give Dye, Pods, and Quentin rest. The extra rest was supposed to have these three performing at higher levels. Pods has done better. Yet Dye and Quentin have been more or less non-existent.

[SI1020]

This entire Rios issue may be even bigger than suggested in this thread. I'm sure that K.W. expected him to turn his subpar season around after getting a fresh start in a new city. Unfortunately, not only has that not happened, but he has completely fallen on his face. This not only has likely killed our chances for post season this year, but it brings into question a few other major concerns for next year.

 

If he could have been expected to produce like his career numbers, he would have filled a couple of holes for the Sox. Obviously, he solves the defensive problem in CF. Moreover, he allows Pods to move to left, where Scotty is not a liability. Additionally, Rios would have provided more speed, another stolen base threat, and lots of extra basehits. His production over his previous 3 seasons averages 44 doubles, 7 triples and 24 stolens bases over a full 162 game campaign. That production coupled with his near .300 average could provide another solid offensive player at the top of the order, perhaps even in the number two hole. That would allow Beckham to bat a little deeper into the heart of the order.

 

A productive Rios would have eliminated the need for K. W. to consider acquiring Figgins. He could have tried to sign Abreu this off season, and the offense would have been set. With a lineup of Pods, a productive Rios, Quentin, Abreu, Beckham, Konerko, A. J., Ramirez and Getz (Nix) this team would have a great balance of speed, power, decent average and even acceptable OBP. However, if Rios is going to be an offensive bust, this team will face a lot of challenges to get ready for next year. The way he has been hitting, he is a number 9 hitter. That in turn means Beckham probably has to stay at the second spot in the lineup. That further means that they will be a little short on power. Adding only Abreu would not provide enough offense to replace both Dye and Thome. The Sox would need to consider other personnel changes, and likely a lot more money.

 

I'll bet that Kenny is very upset, and a little worried. It's one thing for us to calmly proclaim our confidence that Rios will get back on track next year. Unfortunately, Kenny doesn't have that luxury. Now he will have to consider other moves. Moreover Rios' huge contract will constrain any such other possibilities. What a shame. Rios could really have solved a lot of problems, but so far this looks like a big mistake, which also has to weigh heavily on our GM. It certainly isn't his fault, and I hope that fans will place the blame squarely where it belongs if Rios fails to produce.

And the reasons this is not being recognized as a good thoughtful post are?

[Princess Dye]

If the Sox want to raise payroll, then overpaying for Rios is fine. If not for our talented pre-arb guys, I wouldnt say that. But we really are in a position to take a chance and still be able to spend.

 

If payroll has to be lowered in 2010, however, then this move was a serious mismanagement of resources. You cant really get too upset about this before you know what else they're going to do. We have the next two offseasons to upgrade not-so-hard-to-fill positions: DH, RF and 1B...and a lot of money will be coming off the books.

 

Granted other guys need raises, but there will be enough money available to make up for the Rios signing with above-average hitters being around him. I personally think we could look back on it and see we got a great defensive player in CF and an OK bat. When you win, overpays get forgotten.

 

Rios may be the kind of hitter, when he gets straightened out, that doesnt get on-base a ton, but will hit enough doubles to be a positive force for the lower part of the lineup.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Princess Dye

[Harry Chappas]

Can we stop saying this? I know believing so is convenient because it absolves Rios from being horrendous and Peavy from not pitching in early September, but it's not as if Williams was ignoring 2009.

 

I know it's an excuse because, look at in these terms -- if Rios was performing well and we were within a few games of the division lead with Peavy set to return, would people not say that Williams was thinking of 2009? Of course they would. But now that Rios has looked terrible, we're 6 out of the division, and Peavy isn't pitching, we can conveniently throw out the "[they] were mostly for 2010." Obviously they're important players for 2010 and beyond, but to ignore this season is foolish.

 

If Peavy didn't get hit with the line drive he would have made 3 MLB starts by now.

 

Sadly neither Peavy or Rios would have really helped an offense that is incapable of scoring runs...I know Rios is playing like crap but he is right in line with the other unperformers offensively.

 

These moves were made beacuse of the positive long term impact they would have as well as the positive impact they could have this year.

 

 

[greg775]

Sadly neither Peavy or Rios would have really helped an offense that is incapable of scoring runs...I know Rios is playing like crap but he is right in line with the other unperformers offensively.

 

What I don't get is why everybody thinks magically next season's lineup will be fine and score plenty of runs. Are people just assuming we're going to be a .600 team all of a sudden? Or are they assuming there will be changes?

[Kyyle23]

What I don't get is why everybody thinks magically next season's lineup will be fine and score plenty of runs. Are people just assuming we're going to be a .600 team all of a sudden? Or are they assuming there will be changes?

 

 

I think the problem here is that you are assuming there will be no changes

[greg775]

I don't know about that. Many threads I've read just assume next year is our year. I guess it's because of Peavy.

[iamshack]

If Peavy didn't get hit with the line drive he would have made 3 MLB starts by now.

 

Sadly neither Peavy or Rios would have really helped an offense that is incapable of scoring runs...I know Rios is playing like crap but he is right in line with the other unperformers offensively.

 

These moves were made beacuse of the positive long term impact they would have as well as the positive impact they could have this year.

 

Exactly. Very astute comment.

 

How can you blame KW for Peavy getting hit in the elbow with a line drive? He did his homework, and the injury Jake had at the time the deal was made would have allowed him to come back right in the window they were guessing. Then the line drive off the elbow set everything back a month. This was somehow forseeable?

 

As for Rios, I have said it before and I will again. Rios certainly did not hold up his end of the bargain, but unless the guy came here and hit like Albert Pujols in a contract year it wouldn't have really mattered. Over the past month, two guys have shown up offensively, maybe three, in Scottie, AJ, and Alexei. The rest of the team has sucked monkey nuts, especially Dye, Q and Beckham.

 

Of course everyone was hoping Rios and Peavy would contribute this year. They didn't. What more is there to say? You want to blame KW? Fine, go ahead. It's really easy to blame him after the results are in. But it's a bit harder to attack his logic at the time the trades were made.

 

I'd honestly love it if some of the constantly pessimistic posters and blamejunkies had a record of their decisions availablle for all to view. Then, instead of attacking your reasoning at the time you made your decision, I could just use hindsight to twist everything you did into a heap of rotten-smelling horses***.

Edited September 16, 2009 by iamshack

[caulfield12]

I'm not being pessimistic with this thread, per se...actually, KW's moves have normally worked out quite, well, especially over the short-term. I guess if someone wants to read into as unfairly criticizing him, that's fine. But if you look at all my posts since I've been here, I've never come close to saying he should be fired, he's stupid, he's a bad G.M., etc.

 

That's why I started it, I couldn't remember one that almost had disastrous results.

 

Now if we don't make any changes to the bullpen at all (besides internally), we don't have a replacement for Thome/Dye, Pods is a starter AND our leadoff hitter and our infield defense is STILL a mess in 2010...then there SHOULD be some serious questions, the same questions we were asking the first two months of the 2009 season.

 

Because I have a feeling that the Rios and Peavy acquisitions will be used as the primary reasons why payroll can't be added...and you can put me on record as saying I'm fine with Garcia/Hynick/Torres/Hudson as our fifth starter candidates, I don't expect the type of money that we spent on the likes of Garland and Vazquez to be spent on the back end of the rotation in these days of financial austerity, as 05/06 is now well in the rearview mirror.

 

For whatever reason, the "mix/chemistry" was never good this season, and that's ironic, because we eliminated Uribe/Crede/Vazquez/Swisher/Cabrera and also Griffey from the roster. Three of those six were "perceived" as strong leaders, Cabrera had many many fans (as many as detractors) because of his propensity for playing on winning teams...Swisher and Vazquez, their issues/problems are well-documented.

 

With the void being left by the possible departures of Thome/Dye, with Konerko on the way out...new leaders (along with Buehrle) will have to emerge.

The obvious answer is Beckham, but he can't do it all by himself. Alexei Ramirez returning to 2008 form might be the key to the whole thing, if he can get his head 100% back on baseball. With Quentin and Rios, you have no idea what you're going to get, but it's hard to count on them to put up their past "peak" numbers, that's for sure. If KW does...he will also forever become victim of the Rios "talent tease." Maybe the same will eventually be said about CQ, too. I hope not.

Edited September 16, 2009 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Considering the title of the thread, the answer is no. There has been no midseason move by KW that has backfired more than Rios. He hasn't helped them win a pretty bad divison next year, and he's has a contract that will cost the Sox $60 million the next 5 seasons. He's Alfonso Soriano lite. His contract isn't market value for what he's done, and judging by his comments, he already has given up on this season, which, if you listen to scouts, isn't surprising.

 

So I think Peavy is KW's best trade ever, and Rios is his biggest blunder even though I believe Rios will be a decent player. The problem is he's not much of a presence. He's apparently not a leader. He gets paid money that the Sox are probably going to need to spend elsewhere. At least there doesn't appear to be any juggernauts forming in the AL Central any time soon, although I am worried with Peavy for a whole season next year, the Sox may be prohibitive favorites, and it seems when that happens, dissappointment always follows.

[DBAHO]

I'm not being pessimistic with this thread, per se...actually, KW's moves have normally worked out quite, well, especially over the short-term. I guess if someone wants to read into as unfairly criticizing him, that's fine. But if you look at all my posts since I've been here, I've never come close to saying he should be fired, he's stupid, he's a bad G.M., etc.

 

That's why I started it, I couldn't remember one that almost had disastrous results.

 

Now if we don't make any changes to the bullpen at all (besides internally), we don't have a replacement for Thome/Dye, Pods is a starter AND our leadoff hitter and our infield defense is STILL a mess in 2010...then there SHOULD be some serious questions, the same questions we were asking the first two months of the 2009 season.

 

Because I have a feeling that the Rios and Peavy acquisitions will be used as the primary reasons why payroll can't be added...and you can put me on record as saying I'm fine with Garcia/Hynick/Torres/Hudson as our fifth starter candidates, I don't expect the type of money that we spent on the likes of Garland and Vazquez to be spent on the back end of the rotation in these days of financial austerity, as 05/06 is now well in the rearview mirror.

 

For whatever reason, the "mix/chemistry" was never good this season, and that's ironic, because we eliminated Uribe/Crede/Vazquez/Swisher/Cabrera and also Griffey from the roster. Three of those six were "perceived" as strong leaders, Cabrera had many many fans (as many as detractors) because of his propensity for playing on winning teams...Swisher and Vazquez, their issues/problems are well-documented.

 

With the void being left by the possible departures of Thome/Dye, with Konerko on the way out...new leaders (along with Buehrle) will have to emerge.

The obvious answer is Beckham, but he can't do it all by himself. Alexei Ramirez returning to 2008 form might be the key to the whole thing, if he can get his head 100% back on baseball. With Quentin and Rios, you have no idea what you're going to get, but it's hard to count on them to put up their past "peak" numbers, that's for sure. If KW does...he will also forever become victim of the Rios "talent tease." Maybe the same will eventually be said about CQ, too. I hope not.

What do you think the chances of all of that are happening?

 

I'd say less than 2%.

[santo=dorf]

I think the Baldwin move still could be his biggest blunder. A young GM tries to get a young prospect named Jon Berry but gets a journeyman named Jeff Barry.

[caulfield12]

Baldwin for Masaoka (that also went as badly as Berry/Barry) was a throw-away trade....

 

 

As far as the 2% goes....

 

Odds of NOT replacing Thome/Thome=15-20%

Odds of replacing Pods with another leadoff hitter=30-50%

Odds of going into season without a significant bullpen addition and hoping Pena and Linebrink get it figured out=75%

Odds of the infield defense improving=60-75%

Odds of KW adding a veteran 3B or 2B=10-20%

 

 

[greg775]

Of course everyone was hoping Rios and Peavy would contribute this year. They didn't. What more is there to say? You want to blame KW? Fine, go ahead. It's really easy to blame him after the results are in. But it's a bit harder to attack his logic at the time the trades were made.

 

I'd honestly love it if some of the constantly pessimistic posters and blamejunkies had a record of their decisions availablle for all to view. Then, instead of attacking your reasoning at the time you made your decision, I could just use hindsight to twist everything you did into a heap of rotten-smelling horses***.

 

Nobody's calling for KW's head. At the time, Rios seemed like a good move (despite the fact a few people I know told me Rios is a cancer and lazy and will suck) because KW gave up nothing but money to get him.

He's been a terrible acquisition so far and Pods is still out in cf butchering that position a couple times a week.

I hate giving up so many pitchers for Peavy, ones who could have pitched this year, but he's the savior so I'll go along with everybody and applaud that move.

Second guessing is stupid; I hate when people blast Oz's every move with our s*** bullpen. I'm not saying KW didn't try or wasn't doing his job. Rios still has time this season to make a splash if he's saved all his big hits for the Detroit games. Rios can shut all of the naysayers up still this season if he is a Tiger killer.

One or two guys can get hot and carry a team in six games.

[Frankensteiner]

Nobody's calling for KW's head. At the time, Rios seemed like a good move (despite the fact a few people I know told me Rios is a cancer and lazy and will suck) because KW gave up nothing but money to get him.

He's been a terrible acquisition so far and Pods is still out in cf butchering that position a couple times a week.

I hate giving up so many pitchers for Peavy, ones who could have pitched this year, but he's the savior so I'll go along with everybody and applaud that move.

 

Actually, I disagree. At the time, it was the same move as it is now. Rios is a talented player but one that has not produced up to his salary for the last 2 seasons, that was true then and it's true now. All I know is KW better not be crying poor when it's time to improve the lineup and bullpen in the off-season.