Sox consider shutting down Floyd and Buehrle

[Balta1701]

So who else besides torres and Hudson can we give a start to? Egbert, Harrell, Marquez, Whisler are already on the 40 man. Could any of them give us a start or two? Is Marquez still DL'd?

[Texsox]

Come on. An airplane can fall on me when I walk out my door today, but it's not going to happen.

 

but we can hope , , ,

[Kyyle23]

Thought it was 2 years.

 

For some reason I was thinking he signed the contract in 06, dont knwo why. Regardless, even better reason to not let Buehrle overwork his arm

[Greg Hibbard]

This is why I don't get this. He's never shown any particular proneness towards injury, so why would we mess with the regiment when there's nothing about what he does to indicate he'll injure himself? By this logic, we should just remove every potential 2010 starter and play all minor leaguers because all of them are at risk for injury.

 

The one season in which Buehrle arguably had a dead arm (2006) was because he pitched 260 innings the previous season, and obviously through October which is one month longer than usual. At every other point he has been durable, effective, consistent. The past three years he's pitched roughly 200 innings, which is less than he pitched from 01-06, and his ERA has basically been 3.7 all three years. I see no reason why we wouldn't just keep throwing him out there every five days to get him work. You don't have to leave him in through the 8th inning with 130 pitches, but we should just get him work. It's arguable that a particularly long layoff between now and spring training would do just as much harm as good too.

[whitesoxlove]

Does this team have ANY pride??? Finish the freaking season. At least TRY and make it a winning season. There's only a couple weeks left then you get a vacation, try and not make this team more of an embarrassment. <_>

[WCSox]

Oh, i absolutely agree with you on Floyd, but shutting Danksy and Buehrle down for the hell of it would be a real issue with me

 

Why? Danks threw over 200 innings last year, which was WAY higher than his previous high. Mark is going to exceed 200 IP for the NINTH straight season this evening. If anything, these guys need MORE rest than Floyd.

 

If the Sox are still 6+ games out at this time next week, I shut down all three and let Freddy, Peavy (with a strict pitch count), and three minor-leaguers round out the rotation for the last two weeks.

 

[southsider2k5]

If Buerhle isn't hurt, what difference is one or two starts going to make in 2010? We are talking about 15 IP tops. It makes sense with Floyd so that he doesn't worsen an injury, or hurt himself trying to over compensate for the injury, but why Buehrle?

[Kyyle23]

I think the Buehrle decision has to be something the coaching staff has talked about with Mark. It is pretty out of the blue, and they never really found an issue with his amount of IP before

[WCSox]

If Buerhle isn't hurt, what difference is one or two starts going to make in 2010? We are talking about 15 IP tops. It makes sense with Floyd so that he doesn't worsen an injury, or hurt himself trying to over compensate for the injury, but why Buehrle?

 

I can name several reasons:

 

(1) Players can suffer freak injuries at any time

 

(2) Pitchers can suffer major arm injuries at any time

 

(3) Mark has over 2,000 innings of wear and tear on an arm that isn't guaranteed to last forever

 

(4) We still owe Mark $28 million

Edited September 18, 2009 by WCSox

[Dick Allen]

Unless Buerhle is pitching hurt, which has long been a conspiracy theory with him, I don't get shutting him down. If he has an injury, fine. If Floyd isn't healthy, fine shut him down, but if they are ready to go, let them pitch. Really, how much is it going to matter for 2010. Let the people who pay to go to the game get to watch him work. Let your young pitchers see a guy on the mound who probably doesn't have as good of stuff as they do, get major league hitters out. I've never understood shutting guys down because they might get hurt. If that's the case, should the Bulls shut Derrick Rose down after about 30 games this year when it becomes apparent they aren't going to win? He might get hurt.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Jordan4life_2007]

Unless Buerhle is pitching hurt, which has long been a conspiracy theory with him, I don't get shutting him down. If he has an injury, fine. If Floyd isn't healthy, fine shut him down, but if they are ready to go, let them pitch. Really, how much is it going to matter for 2010. Let the people who pay to go to the game get to watch him work. Let your young pitchers see a guy on the mound who probably doesn't have as good of stuff as they do, get major league hitters out. I've never understood shutting guys down because they might get hurt. If that's the case, should the Bulls shut Derrick Rose down after about 30 games this year when it becomes apparent they aren't going to win? He might get hurt.

 

Good post. I never agree with shutting guys down just because you're out of it. I'm going to the game on the 26th, and I don't want to see some random scrub on the mound just because. If somenbody is hurt, fine. I can understand that. But you play the full schedule out with your best guys. No matter what.

[Greg Hibbard]

I can name several reasons:

 

(1) Players can suffer freak injuries at any time

 

(2) Pitchers can suffer major arm injuries at any time

 

(3) Mark has over 2,000 innings of wear and tear on an arm that isn't guaranteed to last forever

 

(4) We still owe Mark $28 million

 

1) applicable to any player on the white sox roster

2) a major arm injury, if it's going to happen to buehrle, will happen regardless of whether or not we sit him. There's absolutely no way to safeguard against this, and it has nothing necessarily to do with # of IP per season.

3) yeah, and the nominal value of 15 more IP on 2000 IP is nothing.

4) applicable to any similarly valued white sox player in terms of evaluating his sit-ability. We owe lots of people lots of money, why not sit all of them?

[WCSox]

1) applicable to any player on the white sox roster

 

Not every player on the roster has Mark's value.

 

2) a major arm injury, if it's going to happen to buehrle, will happen regardless of whether or not we sit him.

 

Yes, because there's absolutely zero correlation between the repetition of an unnatural arm motion and major arm injuries.

 

There's absolutely no way to safeguard against this, and it has nothing necessarily to do with # of IP per season.

 

Freddy Garcia says hi.

 

3) yeah, and the nominal value of 15 more IP on 2000 IP is nothing.

 

Not necessarily true

 

4) applicable to any similarly valued white sox player in terms of evaluating his sit-ability. We owe lots of people lots of money, why not sit all of them?

 

If they're eliminated, sitting the most valuable players makes sense, no?

 

If the Sox are still fighting for the division, I agree that you leave Mark in there. If the Sox are out of it (mathematically or realistically), none of your reasons justify leaving Mark in the rotation.

 

Even taking Mark's health and contract out of the equation, there's no reason to not play minor-leaguers when a team is out of contention. I'd much rather see Torres, Carrasco, Hudson, etc. out there. It also makes sense to put Freddy out there to build arm strength or a healthy Peavy out there to regain some confidence. On the other hand, there's absolutely nothing to gain by throwing Mark out there if the Sox don't have a realistic shot at the playoffs.

Edited September 19, 2009 by WCSox

[RME JICO]

Tonight is a good indication of what needs to happen. The players have spoken with their performance on the field, and Ozzie spoke with that wonderful lineup.

[greg775]

The way Flowers waved at those pitches makes me think he might not be ready to bash many hits this year, either.

Nunez and Hudson threw up some meatballs as well.

 

Not a good night to be a Sox fan. Guess it's better to simply forget that game happened.

It woulda have been a good game to have big Jimmy's bat in the lineup. Wonder if we'll sign him in the offseason.

[flavum]

I think it's safe to say we've seen the last of Buehrle and Floyd this year.

[MexSoxFan#1]

That dude who sig has all the no names that shut us down this season needs to update his sig,he needs to add Cy Rowland-Smith and Cy Hochevar to that list of infamy,the way this club is going,we're gonna face a few more Cys yet,UGH!!!

[SoxPride56]

It woulda have been a good game to have big Jimmy's bat in the lineup. Wonder if we'll sign him in the offseason.

 

 

Good point, his solo homer in the 8th inning after striking out the first 3 times would have prevented the shutout.

[witesoxfan]

That dude who sig has all the no names that shut us down this season needs to update his sig,he needs to add Cy Rowland-Smith and Cy Hochevar to that list of infamy,the way this club is going,we're gonna face a few more Cys yet,UGH!!!

 

Ryan Rowland-Smith has actually been a pretty damn good starter. Career 3.55 ERA in 24 career starts, 149.2 IP.

 

Hochevar has been a relative bum so far though.

[greg775]

Good point, his solo homer in the 8th inning after striking out the first 3 times would have prevented the shutout.

 

You don't think big Jimmy has helped us dominate the Royals in the past?

I miss his big bat, especially tonight.

We need that lefty presence.

[soxbsbllvr]

Hudson hadn't thrown in days; plus he's a starter going in relief for the first time in his career. I would give him a pass. He threw strikes, had a K. 1 big mistake which meant nothing. Nunez, too. They are both young and what better time to learn than when you don't have a chance.

[Greg Hibbard]

Yes, because there's absolutely zero correlation between the repetition of an unnatural arm motion and major arm injuries.

 

So explain to me how 200 more repetitions of that arm this season differs from 600-800 repetitions of his arm next March. His arm has the same number of innings logged throughout the past, and if a major injury is going to happen in his next 15 IP, it's going to happen whether or not we sit him this season, because it means there's something fundamentally physically wrong that's going to give eventually.

 

[Dick Allen]

So explain to me how 200 more repetitions of that arm this season differs from 600-800 repetitions of his arm next March. His arm has the same number of innings logged throughout the past, and if a major injury is going to happen in his next 15 IP, it's going to happen whether or not we sit him this season, because it means there's something fundamentally physically wrong that's going to give eventually.

I agree with you, and maybe we both are all wet, but if Buerhle pitching now is going to get him injured, then wouldn't he just get injured next spring? Unless there is something wrong with him that they aren't letting on, he's been among the most durable pitchers in his generation. Its a good thing the Sox didn't make the playoffs. Everyone would be worried about the pitchers getting hurt.

[WCSox]

So explain to me how 200 more repetitions of that arm this season differs from 600-800 repetitions of his arm next March. His arm has the same number of innings logged throughout the past, and if a major injury is going to happen in his next 15 IP, it's going to happen whether or not we sit him this season, because it means there's something fundamentally physically wrong that's going to give eventually.

 

Not true. For example, there could be a very minor tear in Mark's labrum or rotator cuff that isn't problematic right now and would heal on its own over the winter, but could be further strained over the course of the next two starts. You never know when something like this might happen. Remember how Freddy coincidentally lost 5 mph off of his fastball after logging 241 innings in 2005, and then coincidentally blew out his shoulder the following spring?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating benching Mark if the Sox are still trying to win the division. But if Kenny has given up and has instructed Ozzie to give other players some playing time, you absolutely take out Mark at this point. You can take injury risk completely out of the picture and use 2005/2006 as a good example of what added innings can do to Mark's velocity and effectiveness the following season. If you're not playing for anything, why potentially subject your #2 pitcher to that?

 

[Dick Allen]

Not true. For example, there could be a very minor tear in Mark's labrum or rotator cuff that isn't problematic right now and would heal on its own over the winter, but could be further strained over the course of the next two starts. You never know when something like this might happen. Remember how Freddy coincidentally lost 5 mph off of his fastball after logging 241 innings in 2005, and then coincidentally blew out his shoulder the following spring?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating benching Mark if the Sox are still trying to win the division. But if Kenny has given up and has instructed Ozzie to give other players some playing time, you absolutely take out Mark at this point. You can take injury risk completely out of the picture and use 2005/2006 as a good example of what added innings can do to Mark's velocity and effectiveness the following season. If you're not playing for anything, why potentially subject your #2 pitcher to that?

You made his point with the Garcia story. Freddy blew out the next spring. Worst case scenerio, if Buerhle blew out his arm, wouldn't you rather have him blow it out in September rather than March? Also, if they are worried about Buerhle getting hurt, should the Sox be worried about all their pitchers and position players they plan to keep getting hurt? Should they bench them? There is something to be said about integrity. Whether you have a chance at the postseason or not, you should go out on the field and play to win during the regular season. The Sox still have 9 games left against Minn and Det. and they may go down to the wire. Wasn't Buerhle coddled earlier this spring so he would be strong for this time of year? If he has a physical issue, then sure, skip him, just like with Floyd. But if he would be pitching if the Sox still had an extremely slim chance, I see no reason not to pitch him when that had zero chance. I understand your point. Pitchers only have a certain amount of pitches in them. I just disagree with the "he might get hurt" crowd. He might have blown out his arm last night. Beckham might have torn up his knee chasing a foul ball.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Dick Allen