Sox consider shutting down Floyd and Buehrle

[WCSox]

You made his point with the Garcia story. Freddy blew out the next spring.

 

Uh, no I didn't. He lost effectiveness in 2006 and was likely pitching through pain as well.

 

Worst case scenerio, if Buerhle blew out his arm, wouldn't you rather have him blow it out in September rather than March? Also, if they are worried about Buerhle getting hurt, should the Sox be worried about all their pitchers and position players they plan to keep getting hurt? Should they bench them?... The Sox still have 9 games left against Minn and Det. and they may go down to the wire. Wasn't Buerhle coddled earlier this spring so he would be strong for this time of year? If he has a physical issue, then sure, skip him, just like with Floyd. But if he would be pitching if the Sox still had an extremely slim chance, I see no reason not to pitch him when that had zero chance. I understand your point. Pitchers only have a certain amount of pitches in them. I just disagree with the "he might get hurt" crowd. He might have blown out his arm last night. Beckham might have torn up his knee chasing a foul ball.

 

You can't equate potential injury to pitchers to potential injury to position players. Pitchers are off-the-charts more subject to career-ending injuries than position players. Especially pitchers who already have over 2,000 innings on their arms.

 

There is something to be said about integrity. Whether you have a chance at the postseason or not, you should go out on the field and play to win during the regular season.

 

I completely disagree with this. If a team is mathematically eliminated or a GM has determined that his team's chances of making the playoffs are unrealistically low, the health of your players becomes the first and foremost priority. There's no "integrity" in risking tens of millions of dollars in meaningless games.

 

If Kenny determines that the Sox are out of it next week, I can think of a couple good reasons to run Freddy and a healthy Peavy out there. I can't think of any good reason to run Mark, Floyd, or Danks out there.

Edited September 19, 2009 by WCSox

[Greg Hibbard]

Not true. For example, there could be a very minor tear in Mark's labrum or rotator cuff that isn't problematic right now and would heal on its own over the winter, but could be further strained over the course of the next two starts. You never know when something like this might happen. Remember how Freddy coincidentally lost 5 mph off of his fastball after logging 241 innings in 2005, and then coincidentally blew out his shoulder the following spring?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating benching Mark if the Sox are still trying to win the division. But if Kenny has given up and has instructed Ozzie to give other players some playing time, you absolutely take out Mark at this point. You can take injury risk completely out of the picture and use 2005/2006 as a good example of what added innings can do to Mark's velocity and effectiveness the following season. If you're not playing for anything, why potentially subject your #2 pitcher to that?

 

Because then you are paying the remainder of a high priced contract THIS SEASON just to SIT, and even if they are out of contention, the fans are ostensibly still buying tickets to see those high-caliber players perform.

 

The example you cited with Garcia proves my point - he blew out his shoulder the following spring after 4 months off. Do you really think that had he only pitched 225 he would have avoided this injury, given that four winter months off didn't help him anyway?

[WCSox]

Because then you are paying the remainder of a high priced contract THIS SEASON just to SIT, and even if they are out of contention, the fans are ostensibly still buying tickets to see those high-caliber players perform.

 

So, putting on a show for the fans trumps the intelligent handling of players in meaningless games? That sounds like a pretty bad way to handle a baseball team.

 

And in case you haven't noticed, the "high-caliber" Sox players aren't really performing right now.

 

The example you cited with Garcia proves my point - he blew out his shoulder the following spring after 4 months off.

 

No, it doesn't prove your point. Freddy was damaged goods in early 2006, and everybody on this board knew it. If you were paying attention, you would have noticed that Freddy's ERA ballooned from 3.87 to 4.53, he gave up a career-high 32 homers, and he lost 5-6 mph off of his fastball. The latter point is particularly important, as it highlights how the 2005 season not only permanently damaged Freddy's arm, but forced him to completely change his approach on the mound.

 

Do you really think that had he only pitched 225 he would have avoided this injury, given that four winter months off didn't help him anyway?

 

If the Sox didn't make the playoffs in 2005, who knows what would've happened. But there's no denying that a pitcher's arm can only handle so much - over both long- and short-term periods of work. If you're not playing meaningful games in September and October, there's point in rolling the dice by putting more mileage on somebody's shoulder and elbow.

 

[Dick Allen]

So, putting on a show for the fans trumps the intelligent handling of players in meaningless games? That sounds like a pretty bad way to handle a baseball team.

 

And in case you haven't noticed, the "high-caliber" Sox players aren't really performing right now.

 

 

 

No, it doesn't prove your point. Freddy was damaged goods in early 2006, and everybody on this board knew it. If you were paying attention, you would have noticed that Freddy's ERA ballooned from 3.87 to 4.53, he gave up a career-high 32 homers, and he lost 5-6 mph off of his fastball. The latter point is particularly important, as it highlights how the 2005 season not only permanently damaged Freddy's arm, but forced him to completely change his approach on the mound.

 

 

 

If the Sox didn't make the playoffs in 2005, who knows what would've happened. But there's no denying that a pitcher's arm can only handle so much - over both long- and short-term periods of work. If you're not playing meaningful games in September and October, there's point in rolling the dice by putting more mileage on somebody's shoulder and elbow.

 

What if Beckham or Quentin got hit on the hand tonight with a pitch and broke it? Maybe they shouldn't play either. I'd say that happening especially for Quentin is more probable than MB getting hurt because he threw 215 innings this year instead of 203, wouldn't you?

Edited September 19, 2009 by Dick Allen

[WCSox]

What if Beckham or Quentin got hit on the hand tonight with a pitch and broke it? Maybe they shouldn't play either. I'd say that happening especially for Quentin is more probable than MB getting hurt because he threw 215 innings this year instead of 203, wouldn't you?

 

We don't have $28 million committed to Beckham or Quentin and I'm talking about shoulder and elbow injuries unique to pitchers due to repetitive arm use, not freak accidents. So that's a bad comparison.

 

That said, I'd probably shut down Quentin due to his plantar fascitis if the Sox were out of it.

 

[Dick Allen]

We don't have $28 million committed to Beckham or Quentin and I'm talking about shoulder and elbow injuries unique to pitchers due to repetitive arm use, not freak accidents. So that's a bad comparison.

 

That said, I'd probably shut down Quentin due to his plantar fascitis if the Sox were out of it.

Then Rios should sit because the Sox owe him $60 million, and what the heck is Peavy doing? They owe him $55 million and repetitive arm use will be used. Sit him down. These guys shouldn't pitch one inning in a spring training game either.

 

How is it pitchers used to pitch 300 innings every year and their arms didn't blow out? You can't baby pitchers or once you decide to extend them there will be trouble. Start babying Buerhle won't be helping him, it will hurt him.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Dick Allen

[WCSox]

Then Rios should sit because the Sox owe him $60 million, and what the heck is Peavy doing? They owe him $55 million and repetitive arm use will be used. Sit him down. These guys shouldn't pitch one inning in a spring training game either.

 

(1) Rios isn't a pitcher.

 

(2) Peavy has only pitched half of a season and doesn't have 2,000 innings on his arm.

 

(3) Pitchers are actually preparing for something important in Spring Training. Right now, Mark is preparing to work on his golf game.

 

How is it pitchers used to pitch 300 innings every year and their arms didn't blow out?

 

Pitchers threw fewer pitches per inning because the mound was higher, the ballparks were smaller, the bats/balls were softer, there was no DH in the AL, and hitters weren't using steroids and HGH. Of course, that resulted in less strain on their arms. The talent pool was also less diluted because there were fewer teams, which translated into fewer marginal pitchers who couldn't physically handle that type of load.

 

You can't baby pitchers or once you decide to extend them there will be trouble. Start babying Buerhle won't be helping him, it will hurt him.

 

I'd love to see your supporting evidence for this. Especially in light of the popular argument in this thread that two more starts will have a miniscule effect on his arm.

Edited September 19, 2009 by WCSox

[Dick Allen]

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Pitchers threw fewer pitches per inning because the mound was higher, the ballparks were smaller, the bats/balls were softer, there was no DH in the AL, and hitters weren't using steroids and HGH. Of course, that resulted in less strain on their arms. The talent pool was also less diluted because there were fewer teams, which translated into fewer marginal pitchers who couldn't physically handle that type of load.

 

 

 

I'd love to see your supporting evidence for this. Especially in light of the popular argument in this thread that two more starts will have a miniscule effect on his arm.

 

Nolan Ryan once threw 259 pitches in one game. Pitchers used to make 40 starts a year and would go well over 100 pitches. BTW, Ryan also has 3300 more IP than Buerhle, and he's now president of Texas, and is trying to get away from pitch counts.

 

Your fewer pitches is crazy. Hawk compares Buerhle to Catfish Hunter. The most batters Buerhle ever faced in a season was 1016 in 2004. Hunter faced more batters than 1016 8 times.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Dick Allen

[WCSox]

Nolan Ryan once threw 259 pitches in one game. Pitchers used to make 40 starts a year and would go well over 100 pitches.

 

Yes, but not all of them were able to do that. There are a lot of good pitchers (like, say, Freddy Garcia) who can't handle that load, but can still help you win a World Series.

 

In general, pitchers back in the good old, pre-steroid, high-mound, huge-ballpark days also had a number of advantages that today's players don't. Today's pitching environment doesn't even remotely resemble that in the Dead Ball Era.

 

BTW, Ryan also has 3300 more IP than Buerhle, and he's now president of Texas, and is trying to get away from pitch counts.

 

Right, because Nolan Ryan isn't some freak of nature or anything, but is representative of the average #2 MLB starter today instead.

 

Next, you'll argue that Quentin should drink beer during games, because it worked great for Babe Ruth.

 

Edited September 19, 2009 by WCSox

[Dick Allen]

Yes, but not all of them were able to do that. There are a lot of good pitchers (like, say, Freddy Garcia) who can't handle that load, but can still help you win a World Series.

 

In general, pitchers back in the good old, pre-steroid, high-mound, huge-ballpark days also had a number of advantages that today's players don't. Today's pitching environment doesn't even remotely resemble that in the Dead Ball Era.

 

 

 

Right, because Nolan Ryan isn't some freak of nature or anything, but is representative of the average #2 MLB starter today instead.

 

Next, you'll argue that Quentin should drink beer during games, because it worked great for Babe Ruth.

 

And Buerhle has pitched as much as anyone in his era. Why is he all of a sudden so fragile?

 

Seriously, if pitching 12 more innings on regular rest is going to hurt Mark Buerhle, get the surgeon ready, you're just delaying the inevitable. Just shut everyone down. These games are meaningless. So what if they don't have 2000 innings. Any innings pitched would move them closer to your magical mark. They should just bring up non prospects and get killed every game the rest of the year, that way, their draft position improves and no one gets hurt.

[WCSox]

And Buerhle has pitched as much as anyone in his era. Why is he all of a sudden so fragile?

 

I never argued that he was fragile, but nice straw man nonetheless.

 

Seriously, if pitching 12 more innings on regular rest is going to hurt Mark Buerhle, get the surgeon ready, you're just delaying the inevitable. Just shut everyone down. These games are meaningless. So what if they don't have 2000 innings. Any innings pitched would move them closer to your magical mark.

 

Wow, you're on a roll today.

 

They should just bring up non prospects and get killed every game the rest of the year, that way, their draft position improves and no one gets hurt.

 

Since your arguments have degraded to this level, it's probably best that we just agree to disagree.

 

[Quin]

And Buerhle has pitched as much as anyone in his era. Why is he all of a sudden so fragile?

 

Exactly, how many games has Buehrle missed in his career? One, and that was so Loazia could have a chance to win #20. And when Buehrle pitches on 3 days rest, he's stellar, so I'm gonna agree with DA that Buehrle is in no trouble of injury.

[southsider2k5]

Nolan Ryan once threw 259 pitches in one game. Pitchers used to make 40 starts a year and would go well over 100 pitches. BTW, Ryan also has 3300 more IP than Buerhle, and he's now president of Texas, and is trying to get away from pitch counts.

 

Your fewer pitches is crazy. Hawk compares Buerhle to Catfish Hunter. The most batters Buerhle ever faced in a season was 1016 in 2004. Hunter faced more batters than 1016 8 times.

 

Nolan Ryan and Catfish Hunter were also trained for that. Its the equivalent of saying that someone in 1968 ran the marathon, so Usain Bolt should be able to run the marathon. These guys are trained differently, and aren't set up to give that kind of distance in a game.

[BigSqwert]

f*** shutting anyone down. The only hope we I thought we had left this year was for Peavy to give the team a shot in the arm. I thought it would have happened a couple weeks ago but heck it finally did happen. This s*** ain't over!

[Dick Allen]

Nolan Ryan and Catfish Hunter were also trained for that. Its the equivalent of saying that someone in 1968 ran the marathon, so Usain Bolt should be able to run the marathon. These guys are trained differently, and aren't set up to give that kind of distance in a game.

This is about Buerhle. He's faced 835 batters this year. He averages 930 batters faced his career. I think he's properly trained to finish the season unless he has an injury. I mentioned those guys because he said guys threw a lot less pitches back in the day which simply isn't true.

 

Now, according to Ozzie, next year they plan on making him a #3 or #4 starter.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Quin]

Now, according to Ozzie, next year they plan on making him a #3 or #4 starter.

 

What.

[Dick Allen]

What.

Per the Tribune:

 

Mark Buehrle will make at least one more start this season, despite having thrown 200-plus innings, but by next season he may find himself the fourth Sox starter instead of the ace.

 

Manager Ozzie Guillen envisions Jake Peavy being No. 1, with Gavin Floyd, John Danks and Buehrle coming next as a way to have him throw fewer innings.

 

"I talked to [pitching coach Don Cooper] about our plans for the future and we might move him back, not be the first guy anymore, be the third or fourth," Guillen said. "[That would] give him time to recover and be consistent. Every time Buehrle goes out there, he gives us a chance to win."

 

He has thrown at least 200 innings and started at least 30 games for nine straight seasons.

 

Despite being on a limited throwing schedule since spring training, Buehrle will make his next start Wednesday, at least as of now. That's fine with him.

[SoxAce]

It's not Ozzie's style to have a R-R then a L-L back to back. He likes those R-L-R spots as much as he likes the lefty/lefty or vise-versa tendencies for a matchup on a hitter. I can see Buehrle being moved back but probably to a #2 having a Peavy-Buehrle-Floyd-Danks-Freddy/Huddy/whomever rotation or Floyd being a #1 which Ozzie and Coop (and Jason) endorsed in the past having a Floyd-Buehrle-Peavy-Danks-Freddy/Huddy/whomever. Of course this all depends on what Kenny does in the offseason on perhaps bringing in a solid starter if he doesn't like his options. Now.. if Ozzie changed his philosophy on that, then this is all moot.

[Dick Allen]

It's not Ozzie's style to have a R-R then a L-L back to back. He likes those R-L-R spots as much as he likes the lefty/lefty or vise-versa tendencies for a matchup on a hitter. I can see Buehrle being moved back but probably to a #2 having a Peavy-Buehrle-Floyd-Danks-Freddy/Huddy/whomever rotation or Floyd being a #1 which Ozzie and Coop (and Jason) endorsed in the past having a Floyd-Buehrle-Peavy-Danks-Freddy/Huddy/whomever. Of course this all depends on what Kenny does in the offseason on perhaps bringing in a solid starter if he doesn't like his options. Now.. if Ozzie changed his philosophy on that, then this is all moot.

Danks and his agent will look like geniuses if Buerhle is a $14 million a year 4th starter. Floyd may switch agents since he signed the extension and Danks didn't.

Peavy,Danks,Floyd, Buerhle, 5th starter.

[ThunderBolt]

There's no reason to make Buehrle the 4th starter unless his performance warrants it. Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Hudson/Garcia.

[Quin]

Buehrle should remain the #1. Because the only thing that means is that he starts Opening Day, because as Ozzie has stated in the past, they want 5 #1's. But Buehrle deserves that Opening Day start, not Peavy, Floyd or Danks.

[WCSox]

There's no reason to make Buehrle the 4th starter unless his performance warrants it.

 

I agree, but his performances in August and June haven't exactly been a strong argument for him being an ace. He's been a veritable Jeckle and Hyde this year.

 

[flavum]

1-4, who cares what order they go in... Buehrle should start opening day for tradition's sake. But after that, it should be 1-2-3-4, and skip the 5th whenever you can. The problem with the Sox is that they don't skip the 5th starter enough.

 

Next year, I want the top four to start at least 33 games.

[NorthSideSox72]

1-4, who cares what order they go in... Buehrle should start opening day for tradition's sake. But after that, it should be 1-2-3-4, and skip the 5th whenever you can. The problem with the Sox is that they don't skip the 5th starter enough.

 

Next year, I want the top four to start at least 33 games.

Sort of odd to say this, since we don't know who that 5th guy is yet. Maybe you want to know that before deciding on such a thing?

 

[southsider2k5]

Sort of odd to say this, since we don't know who that 5th guy is yet. Maybe you want to know that before deciding on such a thing?

 

Barring injury, I would say with about 95% certainty that it is going to be Garcia.