Debate: Swap Linebrink for Bradley?

[WCSox]

I found this a good article on the Bradley situation

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/columns/...mp;sportCat=mlb

 

Bradley probably has something on the racial taunts. Baker, Jones and Hawkins all said the same things. The Cubs like to point their fingers at someone and Bradley is very convenient: he's new, getting paid a decent dollar [though less than a lot of guys; and he's had a bad rep. in the past. A perfect foil.

 

Unfortunately, even in this day and age, a certainly small minority of idiots are going taunt players with this type of language. But guess what? It's professional sports. Bradley is getting paid $20 million to put up with it. If he can't act like a professional and tune those clowns out, he doesn't deserve to play professional sports.

 

I also find it sad that Wojciechowski decided to use the race card to "explain" Bradley's behavior (and increase readership, no doubt)...

 

But there is a difference between heckling and hating, a difference between booing and bigotry.

 

No there isn't, Gene. I remember drunken idiot Sox fans shouting all sorts of vile stuff about Dave Winfield's mother at Old Comiskey back in the day. Winfield tuned those losers out and went about his business. Milton Bradley (and Gene Wojciechowski) could learn a lot from Dave Winfield.

Edited September 21, 2009 by WCSox

[bmags]

No there isn't, Gene. I remember drunken idiot Sox fans shouting all sorts of vile stuff about Dave Winfield's mother at Old Comiskey back in the day. Winfield tuned those losers out and went about his business. Milton Bradley (and Gene Wojciechowski) could learn a lot from Dave Winfield.

 

WEll. I disagree, I'd hope baseball fans stick to some decency, so we don't have some of the problems of racist heckling they have in europe.

[WCSox]

WEll. I disagree, I'd hope baseball fans stick to some decency, so we don't have some of the problems of racist heckling they have in europe.

 

So, "hate speech" only applies to race-baiting? Calling somebody's mother a "fat c*nt" doesn't count?

 

It's the same juvenile stupidity. The reason that nobody bothers to attack the non-racist hate speech in the crowds is because the Al Sharptons of the world can't make a buck off of it.

 

[bmags]

So, "hate speech" only applies to race-baiting? Calling somebody's mother a "fat c*nt" doesn't count?

 

It's the same juvenile stupidity. The reason that nobody bothers to attack the non-racist hate speech in the crowds is because the Al Sharptons of the world can't make a buck off of it.

 

Yes, I'm defending calling someone's mother a fat c***. What the hell are you talking about?

 

Just because someone is getting paid multi-millions doesn't mean he can't be offended by someone using incredibly offensive language at them. It doesn't mean the person in the stands isn't also accountable in this situation.

 

If this has been a common theme, the cubs can set some policies to punish unruly fans. I'd be fine with some at sox games, with all the kids, I should hope people can restrain themselves from swearing.

 

but yeah, this all goes back to Al Sharpton, man, people like you have a giant chip on your shoulder from stuff that frankly doesn't affect you much.

[Princess Dye]

So, "hate speech" only applies to race-baiting? Calling somebody's mother a "fat c*nt" doesn't count?

 

It's the same juvenile stupidity. The reason that nobody bothers to attack the non-racist hate speech in the crowds is because the Al Sharptons of the world can't make a buck off of it.

 

When kids go to the park and hear racist language being bandied about, they grow up enforcing those attitudes. Some of those kids will grow up to one day be in a position to hire people. And at that point, they'll be a product of everything they grew up with.

 

And perhaps enact unfair hiring practices. Or maybe they have a great place to rent and won't rent to a certain race. Or try and stop their own kid from dating someone they are a great fit for, who happens to be of different race.

 

If you believe people are just too-PC these days, have that opinion. But dont trick yourself into believing racial language has no real world consequences.

 

If its in movies or something parents can control, go ahead. At the park though, kids are learning. Kids are learning nonstop.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2009 by Princess Dye

[WCSox]

Yes, I'm defending calling someone's mother a fat c***. What the hell are you talking about?

 

Just because someone is getting paid multi-millions doesn't mean he can't be offended by someone using incredibly offensive language at them. It doesn't mean the person in the stands isn't also accountable in this situation.

 

So Bradley is excused from acting like a professional becuause somebody in the stands says something that hurts his feelings?

 

If this has been a common theme, the cubs can set some policies to punish unruly fans. I'd be fine with some at sox games, with all the kids, I should hope people can restrain themselves from swearing.

 

I'd be fine with that. I'm almost hesitant to take my kids to games because of the language.

 

but yeah, this all goes back to Al Sharpton, man, people like you have a giant chip on your shoulder from stuff that frankly doesn't affect you much.

 

Not affecting me much? I've had a gun stuck in my face while being called a "white motherfu@ker" before. Shows what you know...

 

[WCSox]

When kids go to the park and hear racist language being bandied about, they grow up enforcing those attitudes. Some of those kids will grow up to one day be in a position to hire people. And at that point, they'll be a product of everything they grew up with.

 

And perhaps enact unfair hiring practices. Or maybe they have a great place to rent and won't rent to a certain race. Or try and stop their own kid from dating someone they are a great fit for, who happens to be of different race.

 

If you believe people are just too-PC these days, have that opinion. But dont trick yourself into believing racial language has no real world consequences.

 

If its in movies or something parents can control, go ahead. At the park though, kids are learning. Kids are learning nonstop.

 

Don't trick yourself into believing that white people are the only racists out there. Reverse-racism and anti-Semitism are widely-practiced and even accepted behavior in some sectors of our society.

Edited September 21, 2009 by WCSox

[bmags]

Not affecting me much? I've had a gun stuck in my face while being called a "white motherfu@ker" before. Shows what you know...

 

and that has some bearing on this how? Because you have a gun in your face, Milton Bradley should have to "deal" with racists in the stands? Dave Winfield went through that s*** so hopefully someday people like Milton Bradley wouldn't have to. And in 2009 people like Milton Bradley shouldn't have to. Could he react better? Yes. I'm sure that racist behavior in the stands is not the reason, exclusively, Bradley did not work out on the Northside.

 

But frankly you going on a rant about how he should suck it up, and how al sharpton is ruining your life because he wants to end racist language but nobody cares about how somebody mugged you once, is just weird. Settle down.

[WCSox]

and that has some bearing on this how? Because you have a gun in your face, Milton Bradley should have to "deal" with racists in the stands? Dave Winfield went through that s*** so hopefully someday people like Milton Bradley wouldn't have to. And in 2009 people like Milton Bradley shouldn't have to. Could he react better? Yes. I'm sure that racist behavior in the stands is not the reason, exclusively, Bradley did not work out on the Northside.

 

But frankly you going on a rant about how he should suck it up, and how al sharpton is ruining your life because he wants to end racist language but nobody cares about how somebody mugged you once, is just weird. Settle down.

 

Your rambling post makes no sense.

 

Milton Bradley and Gene Wojciechowski need to learn that the world is full of idiot vermin. Excusing Bradley for not dealing with alleged name-calling in a professional manner makes Wojciechowski look like a overly-politically-correct tool.

 

[bmags]

Your rambling post makes no sense.

 

Milton Bradley and Gene Wojciechowski need to learn that the world is full of idiot vermin. Excusing Bradley for not dealing with alleged name-calling in a professional manner makes Wojciechowski look like a overly-politically-correct tool.

 

I think the hilarious irony is you getting mad at these people for getting mad at racists at wrigley when you clearly were affected and angry about getting called "white" one time.

[WCSox]

I think the hilarious irony is you getting mad at these people for getting mad at racists at wrigley when you clearly were affected and angry about getting called "white" one time.

 

Of course I was affected. The difference, which apparently still evades you, is how I handled the situation. Unlike Bradley, I didn't go to the media and throw an entire group of people under the bus because a few idiot members of that group insulted and threatened me. Not to mention that I wasn't getting paid $20 million to put up with that abuse.

 

Edited September 21, 2009 by WCSox

[Jeremy]

The difference is, AJ was a Major League catcher, which we needed. Carl Everett (the second time) was our DH, which we needed because Frank was out. Floyd was a young SP, which we needed. Jenks was a young, cheap power arm, which we needed. I don't see any hole on this club that Milton Bradley would fill other than DH, because we certainly wouldn't want him in the OF,

 

Yep, he's pretty clearly a DH and it wouldn't make sense to sign him if he couldn't effectively fill that role for us.

 

and why would we want a guy who isn't even hitting for power to be our DH?

 

Because a player's previous season is by no means perfectly reflective of how he'll perform the next season and Bradley has slugged .545, .563, and .501 in some previous years? Because in his career he's slugged .537 when relieved of the duty of playing the field? Because we're currently 19th in the league in OBP and his OBP is 20 points higher than anyone on the team?

 

Why would we want to pay even Linebrink's salary to a guy like that when we could probably get Thome back for the same amount?

 

Thome at $2 or $3 million would be a very fine option; that doesn't mean Bradley at a similar salary would not also be a good option.

 

Thome's downside is pretty obvious: he'll turn 40 next season and his body is starting to seriously fail him. He might hold up well enough to DH for another year and have a season comparable to this one but he might instead see a serious decrease in productivity or games played due to his health.

 

Besides, Bradley is never healthy for a full season anyway. Thome is a better health bet than Bradley is.

 

In the one season where Bradley primarily played DH, he played in 126 games. I'd put Thome's over/under for games played somewhere in that vicinity for next season. Thome's been missing an average of over 20 games a season lately as it is and you can't expect him to be every bit as healthy at 40 as he was at 37.

 

But if Bradley sucks for us then we still have to play him every day because if we're paying him that much money then we're not going to be bringing in a real DH as a backup plan.

 

Linebrink isn't really the one to compare him to, it's whoever plays DH instead, because someone has to fill that role. If Thome has a season like his '05 and we're paying him something comparable to what we're paying Bradley, we'd be every bit as obligated to keep him in the lineup, no?

 

And at least if Linebrink suddenly becomes good again he'll be a player who fits an area of need for other teams, whereas Bradley would be basically untradeable to the entire NL and wouldn't be wanted by at least half the AL because of character issues, or intradivisional issues, or because we simply don't want to help out another contender.

 

C'mon, how high are the odds of Linebrink developing into a serious trade chip? I mean they're not non-existent but they're way too small to justify scuttling a deal for someone who can play a decent DH for us next season and help us in the OBP department in the process.

 

It's simple: Bradley-for-Linebrink, like Peavy-for-Zambrano, is just the wishful thinking of Cub fans who still haven't realized that unlike Jim Hendry, our GM is not a complete buffoon. The Cubs gave an assload of money to a career cancer with major health issues who just happened to have a career year in the best hitting environment in baseball. Now they're going to have to pay him to play for someone else. Let's just let those Cubbies enjoy their misery.

 

It seems as though maybe you didn't read the OP, which said that the Cubs could be expected to pay 80% of Bradley's salary. In that case, I don't see how his large contract is relevant from the Sox's perspective. As far as his attitude, I don't know why you'd continue to bring it up after you conceded that it shouldn't be a deal breaker if you can get a reasonably productive player who fills a need. Bottom line: if Bradley comes cheap and can hit, acquiring him for the DH slot should be considered.

[mmmmmbeeer]

I think Bradley has shown that he feels there are racial issues in baseball. He's spoken out about it before and continues to do so. While that may or may not be fact, the fact that HIS head works like this and sees the world like this explains why he was well behaved in Texas playing for Washington and why he hasn't played well in the white yuppie Mecca that we know as Wrigley. As sad as it is, I don't think that you can discount the impact that a very successful black GM would have on Bradley.

 

I could be way off base, I'm not a shrink and I'm obviously not a friend or acquaintance of Bradley's.

[Princess Dye]

Don't trick yourself into believing that white people are the only racists out there. Reverse-racism and anti-Semitism are widely-practiced and even accepted behavior in some sectors of our society.

 

You'll have to highlight the part of my post where I said it only applies to white people. I would give all the advice given there to black people, hispanic, anyone.

 

Take my interracial dating example. Absolutely something that applies to one and all.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Princess Dye

[WCSox]

I think Bradley has shown that he feels there are racial issues in baseball. He's spoken out about it before and continues to do so. While that may or may not be fact, the fact that HIS head works like this and sees the world like this explains why he was well behaved in Texas playing for Washington and why he hasn't played well in the white yuppie Mecca that we know as Wrigley. As sad as it is, I don't think that you can discount the impact that a very successful black GM would have on Bradley.

 

I could be way off base, I'm not a shrink and I'm obviously not a friend or acquaintance of Bradley's.

 

There may be some truth to that. But I'm more willing to believe that Bradley is just incredibly antagonistic by nature and has serious anger issues. Jesus Christ, this is a guy who tore his freaking ACL while arguing a call with an umpire. Somehow, I don't think that Kenny will be able to help with that. Bradley seems like the type of guy who literally look for an excuse to lash out at somebody.

 

Edited September 21, 2009 by WCSox

[Princess Dye]

Whats interesting to me is how quickly people dismiss Bradley because of his (apparently) pretty bad personality. What I'm immediately dismissive of, at this point, are guys who give away at-bats and dont work the count.

 

When I look at a player's upsides and downsides.... and I'm faced with spending $5M for a DH-type FA.... I'm maybe looking at a .340 OBP type guy. With this trade, you would get Bradley for $5M and add another 30 points to the OBP you're getting.

 

The challenge would be making him comfortable. For a short term contract, and the possibility of getting value for Liney, I would do it.

 

Bradley having a peaceful year is more likely than another $5M-ish DH simply overachieving and getting .370 OBP.

 

 

 

Like i said before, i'd love to spend big money on great players who are wholesome. Also, I'd just get an Abreu for 5M if i could. But if that kind of player isnt there, i would do this deal. MB is the true switch-hitting guy who can have a good year from either side of the plate any year.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Princess Dye

[bmags]

Of course I was affected. The difference, which apparently still evades you, is how I handled the situation. Unlike Bradley, I didn't go to the media and throw an entire group of people under the bus because a few idiot members of that group insulted and threatened me. Not to mention that I wasn't getting paid $20 million to put up with that abuse.

 

No, but in the world of relativity, you are b****ing about it on a message board. And bradley wasn't paid extra money by the cubs because there were obnoxious racists in the stands. This abuse shouldn't be tolerated and these fans should be dealt with.

[YonderLaroche]

If we got Bradley as our DH, he wouldn't have to worry about getting racial slurs yelled at him and beer thrown on him in the OF.. I'm for it and the Cubs will probably pay most of his salary just so it ain't a total loss if they release him.

[Princess Dye]

I thought it was put well by Bernstein regarding Bradley's response to racist fan taunts. MB was not wrong to bring it up, but was wrong to handle it as he did.

 

It is right to point it out and report it. It's a workplace hazard to have racist things being yelled. That goes for any workplace.

 

What Bradley did wrong is hint at it and then refuse to explain. If there's a problem, tell us what it is. Don't tease us with it and then clam up. I actually wish Bradley had said more, that way the Cubs could work on a solution.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Princess Dye

[chw42]

Garbage for garbage.

 

If we keep Bradley in check and the Cubs eat half of his salary, I don't see why. He fits into the lineup pretty well as a left handed bat that we will be lacking next year. As long as he does well (hit for his career averages at least), the fans will stay off of him and he should be perfectly fine as long as he doesn't get hurt. He'd make an okay DH.

[beck72]

Unfortunately, even in this day and age, a certainly small minority of idiots are going taunt players with this type of language. But guess what? It's professional sports. Bradley is getting paid $20 million to put up with it. If he can't act like a professional and tune those clowns out, he doesn't deserve to play professional sports.

He shouldn't have to put up with the racial taunts in his home park. The Cubs organization should crack down on this type of garbage. Like it was reported, Baker, Jaque Jones and LaTroy also had the same things happen to them. It's been a long time and no one there has done anything about it.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Because a player's previous season is by no means perfectly reflective of how he'll perform the next season...

1. In 9 full seasons Bradley has played 100 games 4 times. He's played over 120 only 3 times.

 

2. OBP doesn't mean s*** when you're a power hitter not hitting for any power, and you're not hitting for average either, and you can't even run when you get on base, and you can't play the field worth a s***. Argue that if you like, but .257/.378/.397 hitters do not cut it as DH's and they barely cut it at all in the Major Leagues unless you're talking about a C, CF, or SS.

 

3. "In some previous years" yeah okay. Darin Erstad lit the world on fire in some previous years too. Bradley played in 232 games combined over a 3-year span from 2005-2007 which is a bit more than a season and a half. Then he signed with Texas as a reclamation project, had a career year in a hitters haven, then the Cubs picked him up at max value when anyone who had been paying attention could forsee a major decline. Bradley slugged over .500 3 times in his career and his career mark is .450. And in Texas he didn't slug because he was "relieved of playing in the field," he slugged because he played in a pitchers hellhole with an infield of concrete where flyballs carry. Career AAAA/MLB bench player Ramon Vasquez put up a .795 OPS in Texas the same year, then he fell back to his .237/.344/.289 normal AAAA-ness.

 

4. No, Bradley at a similar salary to Thome would be a bad option because the lowest career OPS Thome has posted since the age of 22, aside from the ONE season in Philly (where Thome got hurt and missed almost the whole season) which you're cherry-picking in an attempt to bolster a terrible argument, is the .851 OPS this year. Conversely, Bradley has only topped Thome's lowest OPS 3 times in his career. Thome is older but his skill set will last longer than Bradley's will. And on top of that, Thome's 2009 OPS is 76 points higher than Bradley's, and still, despite only getting into 8 games for the Dodgers, Thome has appeared in only 9 fewer games this season than the everyday-playing Milton Bradley. Look at their games played and there is no comparison, so don't try arguing that Bradley is even within 50 miles of Thome's jockstrap in any positive, meaningful category whatsoever, including age-based reliability. Bradley could very well be out of baseball before the Cubs finish paying his absurd contract. In fact, Thome could play another 2 years and Bradley might not make it through 2010. Give him a s***ty start to next season and a well-publicized blow-up and suddenly Milton Bradley is playing in the indy leagues. Careers end that fast.

 

5. Nearly every contender in baseball, every single year, needs a reliever. A healthy Linebrink posting his usual above-average first half will be wanted by lots of teams if the Sox cover some salary to make the deal more market-friendly. Milton Bradley OTOH is essentially a pinch hitter in the NL and a DH in the AL. It's not very difficult to imagine which player would be easier to move. Add in Bradley's character issues, injury history, and larger contract and it's absurd to think Bradley would be easier to move in a deal than Linebrink.

 

6. Ugh. Read the post. The attitude is a reason why other teams wouldn't be so willing to take him off our hands should we try to move him. I personally don't care about Bradley's attitude. I'm saying we shouldn't get Bradley because he sucks, he's overpaid, he lacks versatility and therefore value, he's practically immovable without a release, and there's no reason to expect such an injury-prone and statistically inconsistent player to somehow gain about 100 points in OPS just because of a trade. If you remove the overpaid part of the equation, then you still have a guy who sucks, lacks versatility, is practically immovable, is statistically inconsistent, and very injury-prone. No thank you very much.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[WCSox]

No, but in the world of relativity, you are b****ing about it on a message board. And bradley wasn't paid extra money by the cubs because there were obnoxious racists in the stands. This abuse shouldn't be tolerated and these fans should be dealt with.

 

The world of what?

 

All professional athletes are subject to insults from the crowd, and Bradley knew this when he signed his contract. I agree that the Cubs need to clamp down on this crap, but why is his Bradley's case more important than any other player's on any other team in any other sport?

 

It is right to point it out and report it. It's a workplace hazard to have racist things being yelled. That goes for any workplace.

 

GMAFB. It's a workplace hazard when fans throw batteries at you, not insults. All sorts of non-racial vial crap is spewed by fans every day. Yet, Gene Wojciechowski doesn't write articles about that because non-racial insults don't sell advertising space.

 

If you're a big, bad-ass professional athlete with a $20M contract and you can't keep from getting your nuts in a twist because some drunk loser is calling you names, you need to find a new profession. Maybe Bradley can move to France and take up cycling.

 

He shouldn't have to put up with the racial taunts in his home park. The Cubs organization should crack down on this type of garbage. Like it was reported, Baker, Jaque Jones and LaTroy also had the same things happen to them. It's been a long time and no one there has done anything about it.

 

I absolutely agree with this. And not for the sake of grown men like Bradley, but for the children. If Bradley had spoke to the front office about putting more security in the bleachers to clamp down on this crap, rather than throwing the entire fan base under the bus, this never would've happened.

Edited September 22, 2009 by WCSox

[Dick Allen]

Who in the world would want Milton Bradley poisoning their team?

[dpd9189]

Who in the world would want Milton Bradley poisoning their team?

 

I want no f***ing part of that jerkoff.