Debate: Swap Linebrink for Bradley?

[Jeremy]

1. In 9 full seasons Bradley has played 100 games 4 times. He's played over 120 only 3 times.

 

I was responding to your claim that he doesn't hit for enough power to DH, not the durability issue. At no time did I claim that he's durable; if that's one of the top priorities in filling the DH slot, you don't want him or Thome.

 

2. OBP doesn't mean s*** when you're a power hitter not hitting for any power, and you're not hitting for average either, and you can't even run when you get on base, and you can't play the field worth a s***. Argue that if you like, but .257/.378/.397 hitters do not cut it as DH's and they barely cut it at all in the Major Leagues unless you're talking about a C, CF, or SS.

 

OBP, i.e. not making outs, is the most valuable quality a hitter can have. Statistically, it's said to be four times more valuable than SLG%. Obviously, fielding is unimportant for a DH. If you have some idea about a potential DH who hits well, runs the bases well, hits for power, has great durability, and comes cheap, then I'm all ears; to me that sounds like a very highly paid player. So far the only option you've named is Thome, who doesn't run well, isn't durable, and has little time left in his career; he's a solid option but the idea that he dwarfs Bradley is silly.

 

3. "In some previous years" yeah okay. Darin Erstad lit the world on fire in some previous years too. Bradley played in 232 games combined over a 3-year span from 2005-2007 which is a bit more than a season and a half. Then he signed with Texas as a reclamation project, had a career year in a hitters haven, then the Cubs picked him up at max value when anyone who had been paying attention could forsee a major decline. Bradley slugged over .500 3 times in his career and his career mark is .450. And in Texas he didn't slug because he was "relieved of playing in the field," he slugged because he played in a pitchers hellhole with an infield of concrete where flyballs carry. Career AAAA/MLB bench player Ramon Vasquez put up a .795 OPS in Texas the same year, then he fell back to his .237/.344/.289 normal AAAA-ness.

 

Erstad "lit the world on fire" once, nine years ago so that's a rather inapt comparison.

 

Even if you throw out last season entirely, Bradley isn't a poor power hitter. A .450 slugging percentage is perfectly fine; right now Beckham has the second highest SLG% of any of our regulars at .453. If a .375 OBP and a .450 SLG% is completely unacceptable production from our DH, you're setting a very high bar and I'm curious about how you propose to meet it with what appear to be limited resources.

 

4. No, Bradley at a similar salary to Thome would be a bad option because the lowest career OPS Thome has posted since the age of 22, aside from the ONE season in Philly (where Thome got hurt and missed almost the whole season) which you're cherry-picking in an attempt to bolster a terrible argument, is the .851 OPS this year. Conversely, Bradley has only topped Thome's lowest OPS 3 times in his career. Thome is older but his skill set will last longer than Bradley's will. And on top of that, Thome's 2009 OPS is 76 points higher than Bradley's, and still, despite only getting into 8 games for the Dodgers, Thome has appeared in only 9 fewer games this season than the everyday-playing Milton Bradley. Look at their games played and there is no comparison, so don't try arguing that Bradley is even within 50 miles of Thome's jockstrap in any positive, meaningful category whatsoever, including age-based reliability. Bradley could very well be out of baseball before the Cubs finish paying his absurd contract. In fact, Thome could play another 2 years and Bradley might not make it through 2010. Give him a s***ty start to next season and a well-publicized blow-up and suddenly Milton Bradley is playing in the indy leagues. Careers end that fast.

 

I picked 2005 for a very specific reason and it wasn't that Thome played poorly: his body failed him and it resulted in a ton of missed games and horrific production. It's not remotely unfathomable that the same thing could happen to when he'll be turning 40 and it's clear that his body is not holding up well. Believing that a 39 year old who can barely run the bases because his back is so screwed up is a lock to maintain his performance for two more years is insanity.

 

The idea that Bradley can't hold a candle to Thome in any regard is just embarrassing, biased hyperbole on your part. Thome does have a substantial edge in OPS but this happens to be Bradley's worst offensive season in the last seven. It's laughable to think that Bradley can't run the bases better than Thome or that he's not "withing 50 miles of Thome's jockstrap" in positive categories like hitting for average (.257 to Thome's .246) or getting on base (.378 to Thome's .372).

 

5. Nearly every contender in baseball, every single year, needs a reliever. A healthy Linebrink posting his usual above-average first half will be wanted by lots of teams if the Sox cover some salary to make the deal more market-friendly. Milton Bradley OTOH is essentially a pinch hitter in the NL and a DH in the AL. It's not very difficult to imagine which player would be easier to move. Add in Bradley's character issues, injury history, and larger contract and it's absurd to think Bradley would be easier to move in a deal than Linebrink.

 

6. Ugh. Read the post. The attitude is a reason why other teams wouldn't be so willing to take him off our hands should we try to move him. I personally don't care about Bradley's attitude.

 

Age really is just a number to you, eh? First Thome's decrepit body is no concern and now Linebrink is going to become healthier and more effective than he's been in at least a year as he approaches his 34th birthday?

 

If Bradley's making $2 million (from the Sox) and posting by far the worst numbers of his career, you can just cut him; finding a way to "get rid of him" isn't a serious concern.

 

I'm saying we shouldn't get Bradley because he sucks, he's overpaid, he lacks versatility and therefore value, he's practically immovable without a release, and there's no reason to expect such an injury-prone and statistically inconsistent player to somehow gain about 100 points in OPS just because of a trade. If you remove the overpaid part of the equation, then you still have a guy who sucks, lacks versatility, is practically immovable, is statistically inconsistent, and very injury-prone. No thank you very much.

 

The reason to expect improvement isn't because of a trade, it's because he's slugging 53 points below his career average for no apparent reason and he's still young enough that you'd expect him to bounce back. The reason to have some optimism about his health is that someone who plays half as much (because he's DHing) shouldn't get injured as often. Clearly he's a flawed player but you can't acquire a DH for $2 million who's not; the only alternative you've named carries a huge risk that you want to ignore based purely on unbridled optimism. Obviously, you have some personal distaste for Bradley because he doesn't receive one iota of that optimism (in contrast, he's getting off to a a putrid start next season and then having a huge blow-up) and believe he sucks even though the numbers conclusively demonstrate that he can hit.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Jeremy

[kitekrazy]

Who in the world would want Milton Bradley poisoning their team?

 

I find it funny that someone would even start a thread like this.

[greg775]

He shouldn't have to put up with the racial taunts in his home park. The Cubs organization should crack down on this type of garbage. Like it was reported, Baker, Jaque Jones and LaTroy also had the same things happen to them. It's been a long time and no one there has done anything about it.

 

This racist stuff is really really bad.

There's a story in the Trib online tonight where Bradley's mom said he was concerned his 3 year old heard racist comments.

Are Cub fans animals? This racist stuff is really bad and sad.

I mean what are they yelling at Bradley?? If they are calling him the N word, they should be removed immediately and prosecuted. What other racist chants are there?? The charge could be inciting a riot or something. Or they should be banned from all Cub games forever.

[Chicago White Sox]

Who in the world would want Milton Bradley poisoning their team?

 

Well something major has to be done to add some fire to the clubhouse. This team has absolutely no heart right now. I'm getting really sick of all these quiet/silent personalities we have. That's why Everett was so important in 05. He added a completely different element to the clubhouse. I'm not saying Bradley is the answer, but having a player with a little craziness could help mix things up.

 

If the Cubs were willing to eat 75% of his contract, then I'd take a flier on him. Worst case scenario you release him if he starts causing problems and make Flowers your full-time DH.

[kitekrazy]

This racist stuff is really really bad.

There's a story in the Trib online tonight where Bradley's mom said he was concerned his 3 year old heard racist comments.

Are Cub fans animals? This racist stuff is really bad and sad.

I mean what are they yelling at Bradley?? If they are calling him the N word, they should be removed immediately and prosecuted. What other racist chants are there?? The charge could be inciting a riot or something. Or they should be banned from all Cub games forever.

 

 

Of course if look at the other side of the coin. I guess there are no black Cub fans. When all else fails.........draw the race card. Why is it when the N-word is heard, it's assumed the some white person said it?

 

Sounds like a reversed prejudice.

[kitekrazy]

If the Cubs were willing to eat 75% of his contract, then I'd take a flier on him. Worst case scenario you release him if he starts causing problems and make Flowers your full-time DH.

 

This is a joke right? No way can the fans or the team be that desperate.

 

[WCSox]

Well something major has to be done to add some fire to the clubhouse. This team has absolutely no heart right now. I'm getting really sick of all these quiet/silent personalities we have. That's why Everett was so important in 05.

 

(1) Adding a selfish player with anger management problems isn't going to help the Sox score more runs.

 

(2) Everett was a declining, mediocre player in '05 who contributed relatively little to the team's success. His outspoken (and controversial) personality didn't help the Sox at all.

 

 

[greg775]

I don't know why I assumed a white person would yell the N word at Bradley. I would think Bradley would see if there were any black fans in the area of the taunts and would point that out if there was a chance it was a black person yelling the crap.

Seriously though ... if this racist stuff is true, that means people in 2009 are yelling the N word at a person in a public place??

With no repercussions? I would be very uncomfortable if some ass in my section was yelling the N word at African American players on my team or the other team.

I'd want an usher.

Edited September 22, 2009 by greg775

[Leonard Zelig]

(2) Everett was a declining, mediocre player in '05 who contributed relatively little to the team's success. His outspoken (and controversial) personality didn't help the Sox at all.

 

Having second most RBI on the team is contributing relatively little?

[MHizzle85]

I don't know why I assumed a white person would yell the N word at Bradley. I would think Bradley would see if there were any black fans in the area of the taunts and would point that out if there was a chance it was a black person yelling the crap.

Seriously though ... if this racist stuff is true, that means people in 2009 are yelling the N word at a person in a public place??

With no repercussions? I would be very uncomfortable if some ass in my section was yelling the N word at African American players on my team or the other team.

I'd want an usher.

You say that like you're completely shocked. It may be 2009, but racism & ignorance is still around.

[scotty22hotty]

If the Cubs offer to cover 50% of his contract, I'd think about it since it's an even swap for the Sox.

If they offer 75%+ you'd be a fool to decline. (Even if they resign Dye)

[jenksycat]

Well something major has to be done to add some fire to the clubhouse. This team has absolutely no heart right now. I'm getting really sick of all these quiet/silent personalities we have. That's why Everett was so important in 05. He added a completely different element to the clubhouse. I'm not saying Bradley is the answer, but having a player with a little craziness could help mix things up.

 

If the Cubs were willing to eat 75% of his contract, then I'd take a flier on him. Worst case scenario you release him if he starts causing problems and make Flowers your full-time DH.

 

No...just...no. Bradley's dumb-below-average ass is about the LAST thing I'd want on our team. There is no way in hell the Cubs eat all his salary, no way a team gives up anything for him, and no way the sox would even consider him.

[DBAHO]

I'd probably pass.

 

Yeah, Bradley could certainly turn it around and go back to the #'s he had in 2008.

 

But would he do that in Chicago with the media on his back?

 

And if Orlando Cabrera and Nick Swisher couldn't fit in Ozzie's clubhouse, is Miltron Bradley going to do the same? I doubt it.

[Dick Allen]

Bradley's troubles with the Cubs weren't the first time he's had issues. He's a cancer. If KW acquires him even if the Cubs ate all of his contract, JR should immediately fire KW and release Bradley, but I know there is no way KW takes this guy, even though he was very interested in acquiring him back when he was an Expo.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

This racist stuff is really really bad.

There's a story in the Trib online tonight where Bradley's mom said he was concerned his 3 year old heard racist comments.

Are Cub fans animals? This racist stuff is really bad and sad.

I mean what are they yelling at Bradley?? If they are calling him the N word, they should be removed immediately and prosecuted. What other racist chants are there?? The charge could be inciting a riot or something. Or they should be banned from all Cub games forever.

 

The N word has been sited by people other than Bradley who play for the Cubs.

[lostfan]

Just stopping in here to chuckle that Bradley was actually being defended.

[WCSox]

Having second most RBI on the team is contributing relatively little?

 

It is when you sport an OPS of .745, OPS+ of 94, and can't play the field. For comparison's sake, Jayson Nix is currently sporting an OPS+ of 93. It wouldn't have been difficult to replace Everett's production in 2005.

 

[southsider2k5]

http://chetchitchat.wordpress.com/

 

Jimmy Carter says overwhelming majority of anti-Bradley sentiment is racist

September 22, 2009 by chetchitchat

 

Milton Bradley’s pastor quoted the wrong passage from Philippians while trying to inspire the troubled Cubs outfielder, according to Joe Girardi, Yankees manager.

 

“With all due respect to the Rev. (Michael) Ealey, the operative passage is not from Philippians 4:13 but rather from Philippians 4:8,” said Girardi.

 

Philippians 4:13 essentially says: Remember you can do all things through Christ. Girardi, however, says that while there is no doubt that passage is true, the more apropos passage would be from Philippians 4:8, which says “Whatsoever things be true…think on these things.”

 

Girardi said he is familiar with Philippians 4:8 because it is the motto of his alma mater, Northwestern University. “If Milton could just face the truth about himself, he might emerge from being such a pansy momma’s boy,” Girardi added.

 

The mother Girardi is referring to is Charlena Rector, who said she talked to her son on Sunday after the Cubs suspended him for the season, according to the Tribune. Ms. Rector said if one door closes for her son in Chicago, another will open for him.

 

“It doesn’t take a shrink to see that Milton’s never really cut the cord from his mother. Look who he runs to. No wonder he’s a sniveling little snot,” said Girardi, who said “amen” to the note in the Trib story about Bradley’s conduct in high school. He would ignore visiting pro scouts and wait at the other end of the field for a ride from his mom.

 

“One door closes for Milton, and another one is always open to him, back to mom. But that doesn’t mean he can’t have a productive career,” Girardi said. “Look at Michael Jordan. The guy basically threw a tantrum during his Hall of Fame speech. His mother should have been ashamed of him, and herself.”

[WCSox]

people in 2009 are yelling the N word at a person in a public place??

 

The N word has been sited by people other than Bradley who play for the Cubs.

 

One would think that the shame of using that language in this day and age would override the psychological harm experienced by the victim. Especially when the victim is a successful, multimillionaire pro athlete. Then again, I suppose that people tend to not feel much shame when they're hammered out of their minds.

 

I don't think that there are any more racists in Wrigley than any other ballpark. I'm more inclined to believe that the storied drinking culture of the Wrigley bleachers has spun way out of control. They seriously need to crack down on public intox there. Maybe they can build a holding cell under the ballpark, like the Eagles had at The Vet.

 

[Kyyle23]

One would think that the shame of using that language in this day and age would override the psychological harm experienced by the victim. Especially when the victim is a successful, multimillionaire pro athlete. Then again, I suppose that people tend to not feel much shame when they're hammered out of their minds.

 

I don't think that there are any more racists in Wrigley than any other ballpark. I'm more inclined to believe that the storied drinking culture of the Wrigley bleachers has spun way out of control. They seriously need to crack down on public intox there. Maybe they can build a holding cell under the ballpark, like the Eagles had at The Vet.

 

 

Im pretty sure they have a holding cell at wrigley. They had to hide Bartman down there

[ThunderBolt]

(1) Adding a selfish player with anger management problems isn't going to help the Sox score more runs.

No, but adding a guy whose main skill is getting on-base will.

[SouthsideDon48]

Im pretty sure they have a holding cell at wrigley. They had to hide Bartman down there

And the guy who was falsely accused of dumping beer on Shane Victorino mentioned to the Sun-Times that he was taken down there and locked up in a holding cell.

[southsider2k5]

No, but adding a guy whose main skill is getting on-base will.

 

Sure if he could actually stay healthy, not be distracted by, well, really anything, not fighting with his teammates, and actually hit.

 

Let me put it this way. The Cubs are 16-9 without Bradley's OBP in the line up.

[ThunderBolt]

Sure if he could actually stay healthy, not be distracted by, well, really anything, not fighting with his teammates, and actually hit.

 

Let me put it this way. The Cubs are 16-9 without Bradley's OBP in the line up.

Assuming we get Kotsay back (not sure how big of an assumption this is) we do have a pretty plausible back-up plan going into a season with Bradley. I think the main problem is that the media here has already turned against him (Bradley). It's going to be a hell of a distraction.

 

[southsider2k5]

Assuming we get Kotsay back (not sure how big of an assumption this is) we do have a pretty plausible back-up plan going into a season with Bradley. I think the main problem is that the media here has already turned against him (Bradley). It's going to be a hell of a distraction.

 

Its not the media's fault Bradley can't keep his mouth shut. It has been his MO at every single stop he has made.