Debate: Swap Linebrink for Bradley?

[iamshack]

I am pretty sure he was ushered out of Cleveland for not getting along with pretty much anyone employed by the team. Hart couldnt move him fast enough.

That was in Cleveland. I don't blame him for not wanting to be in Cleveland.

 

Honestly, you can say he was disliked in Cleveland, but I can point to situations in Texas and San Diego where his teammates were fine with him.

 

Again, I don't know how many times I can repeat this.

 

HE IS NOT AN ANGEL. NOR IS HE THE PERFECT TEAMMATE.

 

What I can say is that he has a lifetime .371 OBP and is a career .820 OPS player. Even in his disasterous season this year with the Cubs, in which he posted his lowest batting average since 2002, he still put up a .376 OBP.

[Kyyle23]

That was in Cleveland. I don't blame him for not wanting to be in Cleveland.

 

Honestly, you can say he was disliked in Cleveland, but I can point to situations in Texas and San Diego where his teammates were fine with him.

 

Again, I don't know how many times I can repeat this.

 

HE IS NOT AN ANGEL. NOR IS HE THE PERFECT TEAMMATE.

 

What I can say is that he has a lifetime .371 OBP and is a career .820 OPS player. Even in his disasterous season this year with the Cubs, in which he posted his lowest batting average since 2002, he still put up a .376 OBP.

 

And still, even without the severe behavioral problems, the guy still gets injured and can barely make 100 games a year.

 

 

I just think it isnt worth it. Nothing to gain for me, just a headache that will not resolve itself.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

In all fairness, when you look at Linebrink you have a guy who is vastly overpaid but nonetheless is still someone who has value on a baseball field, at least until the All-Star break rolls around. He's not worth anywhere near the $10.5M he is owed, but he is still worth about $2-4M or so over two years just based off of his first halves and his potential to be good for a whole year. He's not a clubhouse cancer either. Bradley OTOH, as a garbage defender and an injury risk who is coming off of a pathetic offensive season, is a straight release candidate who would be worth about the league minimum on a one year deal with incentives. And because of his character issues, even taking him on basically for free and hoping for a payoff in production is a risk in itself that a lot of teams wouldn't be prepared to take.

 

If Kenny made a Linebrink-for-Bradley deal where the Cubs eat enough salary to make the contracts equal, then he would have to do so with his finger already hovering over the release + eat salary button, which would mean giving up on any potential value Linebrink could supply, as little as it may be compared to his contract. The Sox IMO would need to get back a player who would alleviate those concerns, so that way if the Sox did immediately release Bradley, they'd still get a player who they believe would be at least as productive as a halfway decent Linebrink, if not better. Jake Fox, Sam Fuld, Micah Hoffpauir, etc. would not work for me at all. And given the Cubs' desperation to dump Bradley, my starting point would be either Marmol, Guzman, or Cashner. If that doesn't work, then let the Cubs eat that entire salary and release him.

[iamshack]

And still, even without the severe behavioral problems, the guy still gets injured and can barely make 100 games a year.

 

 

I just think it isnt worth it. Nothing to gain for me, just a headache that will not resolve itself.

 

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to acquire him, nor would I trade Linebrink for him even. But if the Cubs offered to pay 3/4 of his salary and take back Kyle McCulloch (or however you spell it) for him, I would probably take the risk.

[Dick Allen]

That was in Cleveland. I don't blame him for not wanting to be in Cleveland.

 

Honestly, you can say he was disliked in Cleveland, but I can point to situations in Texas and San Diego where his teammates were fine with him.

 

Again, I don't know how many times I can repeat this.

 

HE IS NOT AN ANGEL. NOR IS HE THE PERFECT TEAMMATE.

 

What I can say is that he has a lifetime .371 OBP and is a career .820 OPS player. Even in his disasterous season this year with the Cubs, in which he posted his lowest batting average since 2002, he still put up a .376 OBP.

Texas doesn't want him back after he let it be known he sat out with minor injuries in his season there because he thought playing hurt might be detrimental to his stats and cost him some cash. He is not a guy you want on a team if you plan on winning. You hear guys give their support to ex-teammates all the time. The fact is, as much as I want them to lose every day, the Cubs have some pretty good guys on there team. Dempster is supposed to be a great guy as is Derrick Lee. There wasn't too much complementary when they discussed Milton Bradley in Hardball Times. Milton Bradley said he wanted to play for the Cubs for the longest time, yet his demons continue to haunt him. There is nothing to suggest it would be any better with the Sox. Here are some of his present teammates quotes about this cancer:

Ryan Dempster said it was “unfortunate,” but that Bradley brought it on himself. Aramis Ramirez said Jim Hendry made the right call, and Derrek Lee called on Bradley to apologize for his actions.

 

“At the end of the day, he was provided a great opportunity to be part of a really great organization with a lot of really good guys,” Dempster said. “It just didn’t seem to make him happy- anything. Hopefully this is a little bit of a wake-up call for him and he’ll realize how good of a gig you have. It probably became one of those things where you start saying things that you’re putting the blame on everybody else.

 

“Sometimes you’ve just got to look in the mirror and realize that maybe the biggest part of the problem is yourself and (not) wanting to be here and play every day, and (not) wanting to have some fun. It didn’t seem like he wanted to have some fun, even from spring training.

 

“Hopefully this is something that can be good for his career and good for him as a person.” Hardball.

 

The reacting didn’t end there.

 

“If you’re serious about wanting to continue your career- you don’t want to finish the season suspended,” [Derrek Lee] said. “My advice would be to talk to the people you need to talk to and maybe apologize if that’s what you need to do, or interpret what was going on for the situation that got you suspended.”

 

Lee called Bradley after Bradley got into a confrontation with Lou Piniella at the Cell and was sent home from a game in June. But he doesn’t expect to call him about the suspension.

 

“I had no problems with Milton personally,” he said. “If he called me, I’d answer the phone. This is a different situation. I would let him reach out to me on this one. He’s suspended for the season. There’s not much I can do to help him on that one. I think if he needed to talk, I’d talk to him.”

 

[Aramis] Ramirez was surprised, but defended Hendry for making the right decision.

 

“I’ve never seen that before,” Ramirez said. “I’ve never seen a GM suspend a player for something he’s been doing or something he said in the paper. But Jim (Hendry) has a point. if you don’t want to be here, send him home.”

 

…Reed Johnson, whom Bradley said gave him sound advice early in the season, appeared to have washed his hands of the outfielder. Johnson said it was a privilege to play at Wrigley Field, and most players understand that.

 

“You had guys like Eric Karros and Jason Kendall say if you play major league baseball over a long career, you should spend at least one year with the Chicago Cubs,” Johnson said. “All of us are really surprised that a player could come here and not have the time of his life…. In a way, I feel sorry for him. He can’t enjoy the same things the rest of us enjoy.”

 

Bradley told the Tribune in June he felt “isolated” in the clubhouse. Johnson, Dempster and others disputed that comment.

 

“From our standpoint, nobody was making an effort to isolate him from groups,” Johnson said. “For the most part, that was his choice.” (lots more at that link above; worth a look)

 

And say what you want about "having the time of your life" playing at Wrigley. Every player should realize how lucky they are and have the time of their life playing on any team.

 

Its mindboggling a guy who has played on 7 teams can still blind people into believing there won't be anything but problems if he plays for their team. The White Sox organization I sure is very glad they don't have to depend on Milton Bradley.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

Thanks for posting that, Dick.

I don't know what it added though that in any way contradicts what anyone else has said.

And honestly, to me, it illustrates what SirCaffey has said in that it appears he is more of a headcase than an outright prick. Guys don't seem to dislike him as much as they just don't understand why he is such a weirdo.

Edited October 18, 2009 by iamshack

[ThunderBolt]

I don't think Bradley's a bad guy. I just think he's an ultra competitive person with a temper. In the right place, he can flourish. Ozzie seems to fit under the personality type of manager that Bradley performs well under. Lou Pinella attempted to humble Bradley in a very public way from the start of his Cubs career, this hurt Bradley. Wash, for the most part, just let him be. Wash is nearly as eccentric as Ozzie is, he runs a clubhouse that thrives on mutual respect from player to manager. He doesn’t put himself above players, he puts himself on their level, and speaks to them on their own terms. Milton has a fierce sense of pride about him, it’s misguided at times, but it’s also one of the strongest factors that have led to his success as a player.

[simba43]

In all fairness, when you look at Linebrink you have a guy who is vastly overpaid but nonetheless is still someone who has value on a baseball field, at least until the All-Star break rolls around. He's not worth anywhere near the $10.5M he is owed, but he is still worth about $2-4M or so over two years just based off of his first halves and his potential to be good for a whole year. He's not a clubhouse cancer either. Bradley OTOH, as a garbage defender and an injury risk who is coming off of a pathetic offensive season, is a straight release candidate who would be worth about the league minimum on a one year deal with incentives. And because of his character issues, even taking him on basically for free and hoping for a payoff in production is a risk in itself that a lot of teams wouldn't be prepared to take.

 

If Kenny made a Linebrink-for-Bradley deal where the Cubs eat enough salary to make the contracts equal, then he would have to do so with his finger already hovering over the release + eat salary button, which would mean giving up on any potential value Linebrink could supply, as little as it may be compared to his contract. The Sox IMO would need to get back a player who would alleviate those concerns, so that way if the Sox did immediately release Bradley, they'd still get a player who they believe would be at least as productive as a halfway decent Linebrink, if not better. Jake Fox, Sam Fuld, Micah Hoffpauir, etc. would not work for me at all. And given the Cubs' desperation to dump Bradley, my starting point would be either Marmol, Guzman, or Cashner. If that doesn't work, then let the Cubs eat that entire salary and release him.

interesting Marmol or guzman

 

[Thad Bosley]

There is a certain amount of poor behavior that you might be inclined to put up with if the player in question is putting up astronomical numbers. Dave Kingman, Albert Belle and Manny Ramirez are a few players who come to mind there. But Milton Bradley does not even come close to providing that kind of production, and so the combination of him only being a decent offensive player on his best days (and one who doesn't play good defense, either) along with being someone who consistently behaves even more poorly than those other three guys I mentioned makes him an absolute "NO SALE" for me.

[WCSox]

I say this because I don't think he would feel alone in being disliked by fans, in being boo'd everywhere he goes on the road, in having a reputation as an asshole. I think that would allow him to identify with some of our other players more and therefore be part of "the team" as opposed to feeling alone and alienated. This club has a history of taking in players with poor reputations and for the most part, they have fit in well and succeeded here. Between Albert Belle, Carl Everett, Robbie Alomar and AJ, we've managed to have these guys on the south side for the most part, without incident.

 

Despite having defective personalities, Everett, Robbie Alomar, and AJ are/were all team players. Albert Belle was not (do a Wikipedia search on what he did in the Indians clubhouse). Note that Belle was pushed out the door after putting up one of the most dominant offensive seasons in Sox history.

 

And that's the problem. Bradley is an angry nutcase who doesn't want to be "part of the team." Like Albert Belle, he's the type of guy who sits by himself in the corner and seethes. Unlike Albert Belle, he's not one of the top sluggers in the league and he has trouble staying healthy. Teams have little incentive to put up with a player like that. A change of scenery or being around strong personalities like AJ isn't going to fix Bradley. He needs a psychiatrist and medication.

Edited October 19, 2009 by WCSox

[RockRaines]

And yet, AJP is much more hated throughout baseball.

[Kyyle23]

And yet, AJP is much more hated throughout baseball.

 

 

THATS CUZ AJ MAYBE KNEED SOME GUY IN THE BALLS MAYBE!!!!

[iamshack]

Well, we can speculate all we want.

 

I tend to think KW and JR would side with the crowd saying NO to Bradley regardless of how cheap he could be had though.

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

I was actually a fan of Bradley the ballplayer from his days on the west coast and even up to Texas. I thought his reputation as a troublemaker was more word of mouth than anything. I think if the media and fans in chicago had never heard of him before this year things may have been better. Sadly for Milton, MLB is popular and your reputation follows you, even if you play in Alaska. I can *maybe* see Bradley working out on the other side of town, but more importantly I could also imagine him being interviewed and written about by the same reporters in the same papers as this past year. Dude will either make good with his Cubs people, or never play for a team in Chicago again.

[RockRaines]

I was actually a fan of Bradley the ballplayer from his days on the west coast and even up to Texas. I thought his reputation as a troublemaker was more word of mouth than anything. I think if the media and fans in chicago had never heard of him before this year things may have been better. Sadly for Milton, MLB is popular and your reputation follows you, even if you play in Alaska. I can *maybe* see Bradley working out on the other side of town, but more importantly I could also imagine him being interviewed and written about by the same reporters in the same papers as this past year. Dude will either make good with his Cubs people, or never play for a team in Chicago again.

It wouldnt be the only time Cubs fans and media have made a player out to be something that they arent, or have taken it to the extreme though.

[Dick Allen]

It wouldnt be the only time Cubs fans and media have made a player out to be something that they arent, or have taken it to the extreme though.

Montreal, Cleveland, LA Dodgers, SD, Tex, Oakland. Its not just the Cubs that have had a problem with this guy. Whoever doesn't think this guy is a shelfish prick hasn't been paying attention. Didn't he attack Eric Wedge?

Edited October 20, 2009 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

It wouldnt be the only time Cubs fans and media have made a player out to be something that they arent, or have taken it to the extreme though.

 

It isn't like Bradley has only had problems here either...

[iamshack]

Montreal, Cleveland, LA Dodgers, SD, Tex, Oakland. Its not just the Cubs that have had a problem with this guy. Whoever doesn't think this guy is a shelfish prick hasn't been paying attention. Didn't he attack Eric Wedge?

 

I would attack Eric Wedge too.

[greg775]

I find it hard to believe anybody would take on Liney's contract.

If somebody would, I'd be all for dealing him, but not for a problem child. Maybe another bad middle reliever.

Liney for somebody else's hack would be fine with me.

[Kyyle23]

I find it hard to believe anybody would take on Liney's contract.

If somebody would, I'd be all for dealing him, but not for a problem child. Maybe another bad middle reliever.

Liney for somebody else's hack would be fine with me.

 

you have such high expectations

[Dick Allen]

If someone wanted to take Linebrink's contract, I wouldn't hesitate to dump it. If someone wanted to give his trash for him basically a wash financially, that's something I wouldn't do. He was awful the second half of 2008 and 2009, but his first halves indicate to me he still has something left.

[kitekrazy]

It wouldnt be the only time Cubs fans and media have made a player out to be something that they arent, or have taken it to the extreme though.

 

Hendry set that in motion by giving him a $30M, 3 year deal.

 

[ThunderBolt]

I think it’s very interesting to look at Milton Bradley’s performance and behavioral history under the mangers that he’s played under. An interesting trend starts to emerge.

Bradley had decent, poor, to serviceable years under:

Alou, Manuel, Wedge, Mancha, Piniella, Black

Bradley had great years under:

Tracy, Washington

The conclusion while not perfect seems to suggest that Bradley performs best in a more open clubhouse, with less authoritarian managers. Manual, Alou and Manuel are famous for running very tight ships, Mancha, was an organizational figurehead at the beck and call of the front office, while Black is a slightly mellower version of Mancha. I think this dichotomy is due to Bradley’s temperament. He accepts people who try to work with him on his level. From the beginning a lot of Bradley’s managers have attempted to intimidate him publically (something that Bradley HATES), or have simply disagreed with the player that is Milton Bradley at a molecular level (Alou, Sweet Lou), instead, Bradley’s greatest season seems to come with managers who run a clubhouse that allows for the free expression of ideas a clear communication between player-manager-Front Office. Bradley is not without his faults. He can be irrational, he’s short tempered, he threw a freaking chair at Billy Beane, but he is a great hitter, he is a switch-hitter, and he does get on base. And he can be had for VERY little. This is not a perfect study; I just think that a manager like Ozzie would agree with Bradley.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I think it’s very interesting to look at Milton Bradley’s performance and behavioral history under the mangers that he’s played under. An interesting trend starts to emerge.

Bradley had decent, poor, to serviceable years under:

Alou, Manuel, Wedge, Mancha, Piniella, Black

Bradley had great years under:

Tracy, Washington

The conclusion while not perfect seems to suggest that Bradley performs best in a more open clubhouse, with less authoritarian managers. Manual, Alou and Manuel are famous for running very tight ships, Mancha, was an organizational figurehead at the beck and call of the front office, while Black is a slightly mellower version of Mancha. I think this dichotomy is due to Bradley’s temperament. He accepts people who try to work with him on his level. From the beginning a lot of Bradley’s managers have attempted to intimidate him publically (something that Bradley HATES), or have simply disagreed with the player that is Milton Bradley at a molecular level (Alou, Sweet Lou), instead, Bradley’s greatest season seems to come with managers who run a clubhouse that allows for the free expression of ideas a clear communication between player-manager-Front Office. Bradley is not without his faults. He can be irrational, he’s short tempered, he threw a freaking chair at Billy Beane, but he is a great hitter, he is a switch-hitter, and he does get on base. And he can be had for VERY little. This is not a perfect study; I just think that a manager like Ozzie would agree with Bradley.

Your standards for great hitters must be pretty low.

[Dick Allen]

I think it’s very interesting to look at Milton Bradley’s performance and behavioral history under the mangers that he’s played under. An interesting trend starts to emerge.

Bradley had decent, poor, to serviceable years under:

Alou, Manuel, Wedge, Mancha, Piniella, Black

Bradley had great years under:

Tracy, Washington

The conclusion while not perfect seems to suggest that Bradley performs best in a more open clubhouse, with less authoritarian managers. Manual, Alou and Manuel are famous for running very tight ships, Mancha, was an organizational figurehead at the beck and call of the front office, while Black is a slightly mellower version of Mancha. I think this dichotomy is due to Bradley’s temperament. He accepts people who try to work with him on his level. From the beginning a lot of Bradley’s managers have attempted to intimidate him publically (something that Bradley HATES), or have simply disagreed with the player that is Milton Bradley at a molecular level (Alou, Sweet Lou), instead, Bradley’s greatest season seems to come with managers who run a clubhouse that allows for the free expression of ideas a clear communication between player-manager-Front Office. Bradley is not without his faults. He can be irrational, he’s short tempered, he threw a freaking chair at Billy Beane, but he is a great hitter, he is a switch-hitter, and he does get on base. And he can be had for VERY little. This is not a perfect study; I just think that a manager like Ozzie would agree with Bradley.

Charlie Manuel famous for running a tight ship? Its not just the manager. Lou let Bradley be an ass for several months before it came to a head. He had altercations with Billy Beane and Eric Wedge. Chicago with its media and expectations isn't the town for Milton Bradley. While the White Sox might be a more comfortable home for him than the Cubs, his history has shown he cannot remain out of trouble very long. He doesn't want to be held accountable when he fails. He doesn't like to play with the slightest of injuries. Paul Sullivan was saying he was taking himself out of the line up this year when he was fine during batting practice, and he admitted he took himself out of the line up in Texas when he was hurt because it could cost him money down the road. If you just want to be around .500 and say you had a nice season at the end of the year, Bradley at near minimum could be for you. If you want to win, this isn't a guy you want to count on. He will let you down.