Jenks done for the rest of the year

[Dick Allen]

IMO, this is the biggest red flag. I can't argue with Thornton's results in the setup role, but he doesn't even throw as fast as Bobby did when he was a one-trick pony. All of the really good closers either have a great offspeed pitch or great movement. Thornton has neither, and because of this I'd say that his ceiling as a closer is rather low. He may be effective in that role, but I'd like to see the Sox look elsewhere for the long-term.

First off, Thornton's 97 is a lot quicker than most 97s because of his easy motion. Secondly, if you threw Thornton into Jenks' appearances in 2009, there is no doubt in my mind he would have at least 30 saves. Most guys would. Jenks had a bad year. As far as closer stuff, he has a BAA of .217 an OBPA of .273 and strikes out more than one an inning. There is no question his "stuff" is good enough to be a solid closer.

 

The only negative I see in making Thornton Jenks' permanent replacement is what other lefty is available for the Sox. Williams isn't the answer. But maybe a lefty set up guy is part of the package for Jenks.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Pumpkin Escobar]

Your assessment of "risk" is flawed because it doesn't take into account the other options. Bobby for one year at $7M is a much less risky prospect than a free agent like Valverde or Qualls, who are both on the wrong side of 30 and will command multi-year deals of $15M or more. He's also less risky than Pena or some other inferior in-house solution. The only acceptable in-house solution is Thornton, who carries additional risk because (1) he's never closed over the long-term and (2) moving Thornton to closer leaves a gaping hole in the setup role and takes away the ability to use him as a LOOGY every once in a while.

 

A proven closer who is one year removed from an All Star-caliber season and is under team control from year-to-year is about as least risky as it gets. Let's say that Kenny re-signs Bobby to another one-year deal this winter and he continues to put up mediocre numbers in April and May. Then you deal him for a setup man and move Thornton to the closer role.

 

 

 

Bobby's going to bring a lot less in return now with an injured (possibly torn) calf. If you want to get something of value in return, you're going to have to re-sign him to another one-year deal, let him show that he's healthy, and shop him in June. I agree that last winter was the time to deal him, IF that's what you were interested in doing. But this is a baseball team, not the stock market. Trying to win trumps getting maximum returns on assets.

 

 

 

Bobby hasn't thrown 100 consistently since 2005. His best years were 2007 and 2008, when he consistently threw 94-97. Obviously, if velocity were everything, guys like Kyle Farnsworth and Bobby Howry would've been perennial All Stars.

 

 

No, my risk assesment is dead on. Yours is flawed. Those guys may be on the wrong side of 30. Pena shouldn't be closing. There are plenty of other closers out there and ones that you can sign or deal for that don't a body that people predicted would break down and now is. He potentially tore his calf or whatever the story is and he can't throw.

 

You can take a risk-free approach. Only you, for whatever reason, seem to think we need to take other risks. Plenty of teams have closers over 30. Thats not a risk. A guy with health concerns about his elbow and declining stuffi s a red flag and a risk. Age isn't, nor is stupidity. Which is what the case would be if we put Pena at closer.

 

And velocity isn't everything but those guys know how to pitch. Jenks doesn't. Nor has he really proven anything other then he is pretty good some seasons and not so good others.

 

You and Jenks supporters are hilarious. Last season when the debate was being had to sell high, the excuse was, "No he is fine, he just is choosing to not throw hard". Then you got a dose of reality and that he physically cannot do it and the argument has turned into velocity isn't everything. Which is 100% true but for some guys it is. See Billy Koch, Zumaya, guys like that. When you have 2 good pitches, one of them being a high 90's fastball and you now are throwing mid-90's. It's a different pitch. Take into account Jenks has never been a beckon of control on the mound and now you're a shaky pitcher.

 

But hey, lets let him come back and do the same thing or get worse next season and have even less value for him because we should just keep giving him chances. After all, he did well in the past for us.

 

Or better yet. Lets pay him 8-10 mil and have him pitch very well for us again and then give him even more money, maybe a long-term contract so that he can collapse again because he physically isn't the same pitcher.

 

Wake up. We had the debate all season and you're still preaching trying to save yourself here. He wasn't throwing the same, people have noticed, teams have noticed and he ended up having a terrible season. All those predictions of how he'd deteriorate quickly have looked to be coming true but you'd rather keep waiting it out. He is a closer, not our ACE. Closers are a dime a dozen.

 

Do you see enough Sox games out in Oregon? Cuz I feel like you just watched your 05 DVD allseason and didn't see how pathetic Jenks looked. Hitting 94 consistently, giving up longballs, having 15 pitch at bats with bums because he couldn't blow it past them. It was sad.

 

And thats not a personal attack. That is a dead serious question.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Pumpkin Escobar

[WCSox]

No, my risk assesment is dead on. Yours is flawed. Those guys may be on the wrong side of 30. Pena shouldn't be closing. There are plenty of other closers out there and ones that you can sign or deal for that don't a body that people predicted would break down and now is.

 

Yep, plenty of closers out there, they grow on trees, the grass is greener on the other side, they can get better value elsewhere, etc.

 

And velocity isn't everything but those guys know how to pitch. Jenks doesn't. Nor has he really proven anything other then he is pretty good some seasons and not so good others.

 

Your assessment that Jenks doesn't know how to pitch is just flat-out wrong. Due throws a mid-90's fastball and has a great hook. Having injury and command problems doesn't equate to not knowing how to pitch.

 

You and Jenks supporters are hilarious. Last season when the debate was being had to sell high, the excuse was, "No he is fine, he just is choosing to not throw hard".

 

Again, he hasn't thrown in the upper 90's for four years, and he's been much more effective throwing in the mid-90's with good offspeed stuff. His "choosing to not throw hard" worked out pretty well last year and the year before that.

 

Take into account Jenks has never been a beckon of control on the mound and now you're a shaky pitcher.

 

Wrong

 

Or better yet. Lets pay him 8-10 mil

 

He won't cost that much.

 

maybe a long-term contract

 

Nice straw-man argument, but I've never advocated that.

 

Closers are a dime a dozen.

 

Wrong

 

Do you see enough Sox games out in Oregon? Cuz I feel like you just watched your 05 DVD allseason and didn't see how pathetic Jenks looked. Hitting 94 consistently, giving up longballs, having 15 pitch at bats with bums because he couldn't blow it past them. It was sad.

 

And thats not a personal attack. That is a dead serious question.

 

Yeah, of course it isn't. It would be completely out of character for you to launch personal attacks here.

 

I've had the Extra Innings package since moving out here. I see him hitting 94-96 on a consistent basis, I see him throwing good offspeed pitches, and I've seen him dominate as recently as a year ago with that same arsenal. Jenks' problems this year were due to command (fixable) and injuries (also fixable). I see no evidence that his arm will fall off within the next 12 months.

 

Bobby was much worse in 2006 than he was this season. He had no command, gave up almost double the amount of walks that he did this year, and consequently got hit all over the place (sound familiar?). Bobby then followed it up with a Rivera-like 2007. I'm not saying that Bobby will repeat 2007 next year, but he'll be worth the $6.5-7M or so he'll command if he brings his WHIP down to 1.22 (his career average is 1.18) and saves 40 games.

Edited September 26, 2009 by WCSox

[sircaffey]

First off, Thornton's 97 is a lot quicker than most 97s because of his easy motion. Secondly, if you threw Thornton into Jenks' appearances in 2009, there is no doubt in my mind he would have at least 30 saves. Most guys would. Jenks had a bad year. As far as closer stuff, he has a BAA of .217 an OBPA of .273 and strikes out more than one an inning. There is no question his "stuff" is good enough to be a solid closer.

 

Matt Thornton has the best fastball of any LHP in the Major Leagues.

[WCSox]

First off, Thornton's 97 is a lot quicker than most 97s because of his easy motion. Secondly, if you threw Thornton into Jenks' appearances in 2009, there is no doubt in my mind he would have at least 30 saves. Most guys would. Jenks had a bad year. As far as closer stuff, he has a BAA of .217 an OBPA of .273 and strikes out more than one an inning. There is no question his "stuff" is good enough to be a solid closer.

 

The only negative I see in making Thornton Jenks' permanent replacement is what other lefty is available for the Sox. Williams isn't the answer. But maybe a lefty set up guy is part of the package for Jenks.

 

Of course, that assumes that the Sox will be able to get anything of value for a guy who will command at least $6.5M next year and has an injured calf.

 

Like I've said before, it's difficult to argue with Thornton's performance this year. But I have a difficult time having faith in a guy who throws almost all fastballs and his only offspeed pitch is a weak slider that he can't throw for strikes consistently. Good closers change speeds (Hoffman) and/or have good movement (Rivera). Thornton does neither. Maybe his transition to closer will be seamless, and he'll be just as effective. Maybe his lack of secondary pitches and the increased attention on him (studying film) will allow hitters to figure him out. I honestly have no idea which way it'll go.

Edited September 26, 2009 by WCSox

[stretchstretch]

I read one rumor on the internets that Jenks is hitting the bottle again and it's a distraction in the clubhouse.

 

yeah, go ahead and post a link to this rumor?? I read he was moonlighting as a frycook at Al's beef, just wanted to merge our rumors together......

 

[kitekrazy]

But maybe a lefty set up guy is part of the package for Jenks.

 

Why would a team trade a set up guy if they acquire a closer?

 

[kitekrazy]

Of course, that assumes that the Sox will be able to get anything of value for a guy who will command at least $6.5M next year and has an injured calf.

 

Like I've said before, it's difficult to argue with Thornton's performance this year. But I have a difficult time having faith in a guy who throws almost all fastballs and his only offspeed pitch is a weak slider that he can't throw for strikes consistently. Good closers change speeds (Hoffman) and/or have good movement (Rivera). Thornton does neither. Maybe his transition to closer will be seamless, and he'll be just as effective. Maybe his lack of secondary pitches and the increased attention on him (studying film) will allow hitters to figure him out. I honestly have no idea which way it'll go.

 

Everyone assume Jenks will be bad and Thornton will be good.

 

[son of a rude]

Everyone assume Jenks will be bad and Thornton will be good.

Because that's how it has been this whole season...

[southsider2k5]

FWIW in Phil Rogers column today, he mentions the Rays as a team who could be interesting in Jenks... Let the Crawford/Jenks rumors BEGIN!

[knightni]

FWIW in Phil Rogers column today, he mentions the Rays as a team who could be interesting in Jenks... Let the Crawford/Jenks rumors BEGIN!

Phil Rogers got the idea from me.

 

 

[santo=dorf]

yeah, go ahead and post a link to this rumor?? I read he was moonlighting as a frycook at Al's beef, just wanted to merge our rumors together......

It's from a respected poster on another board similar to this. Would you really want a link to WSI? Isn't posting links to other message boards (assuming they aren't sponsors) considering "spamming?"

 

People laughed it off when some stranger on the White Sox.com troll boards posted that the Sox were getting ready to acquire Peavy for Clayton Richard, Aaron Poreda and two other players back in May.

 

Take it with a grain of salt.

[southsider2k5]

Phil Rogers got the idea from me.

 

No, it was me.