Woohoo!

[BigSqwert]

No, I'm not trying to defend Walker. It's a serious question. Doesn't the age of the middle of our lineup seem like a more plausible reason for a consistent decline in production at the end of every year?

 

Then how come it's the entire lineup that slumps late each year, including youngsters and whichever free agents we bring in?

[iamshack]

Then how come it's the entire lineup that slumps late each year, including youngsters and whichever free agents we bring in?

 

So what are you saying? That Greg Walker's method is impossible to maintain over the course of a long season?

 

Or that Greg Walker himself cannot maintain his duties over the course of a long season?

[BigSqwert]

So what are you saying? That Greg Walker's method is impossible to maintain over the course of a long season?

 

Or that Greg Walker himself cannot maintain his duties over the course of a long season?

I don't know perhaps it's a little of both.

 

I just find it odd that so many of you are trying to defend a guy who's had an unusually long tenure with average at best results. How many hitting coaches last in an organization for this long?

Edited September 24, 2009 by BigSqwert

[WCSox]

Then how come it's the entire lineup that slumps late each year, including youngsters and whichever free agents we bring in?

 

I don't recall the entire lineup slumping every single year in August and September. Guys like JD and JT seem to have the most problems. Given their age and the fact that the MLBPA has allowed for the testing of amphetamines over the past four years, fatigue seems to be a more likely candidate. This is an old lineup.

 

As far as Walker goes, I don't feel strongly one way or the other. Maybe a change of approach would benefit the Sox hitters. Then again, I'm not betting on it.

 

[iamshack]

I don't know perhaps it's a little of both.

 

I just find it odd that so many of you are trying to defend a guy who's had an unusually long tenure with average at best results. How many hitting coaches last in organization for this long?

I'm not defending him. I'm arguing with the logic here that the reason for the White Sox sucking is Greg Walker's fault. Why does Greg Walker get the heat but not Ozzie?

 

As long as we are establishing direct casual relationships between the coaching staff and player performance, I think they all should be fired, not just Walker.

[WCSox]

I'm not defending him. I'm arguing with the logic here that the reason for the White Sox sucking is Greg Walker's fault.

 

Perhaps the Sox need a new conditioning coach?

 

[BigSqwert]

Perhaps the Sox need a new conditioning coach?

Heck yes! And add some better advanced scouts while we're at it.

 

And yes Iamshack, I think Ozzie is to blame as well.

[iamshack]

Heck yes! And add some better advanced scouts while we're at it.

 

And yes Iamshack, I think Ozzie is to blame as well.

 

Now those might be some better solutions.

 

Our advanced scouts seem to be dropping the ball.

[BigSqwert]

Our advanced scouts seem to be dropping the ball.

So are our fielders most of the time.

[iamshack]

So are our fielders most of the time.

99 problems.

[NorthSideSox72]

Now those might be some better solutions.

 

Our advanced scouts seem to be dropping the ball.

Is it the advanced scouts, or is it that the players and coaching staff are not paying attention to the information provided to them?

 

This is one area that Ozzie is truly a weak manager. He doesn't understand matchups well, and doesn't adapt his lineups and in game decisions to fit the data available. I don't expect a manager to ALWAYS follow the numbers - baseball is not entirely about stats. But Ozzie regularly makes poor lineup and matchup decisions for no apparent reason at all, in the face of obvious reasons to do otherwise.

 

Its always seemed odd to me that Ozzie handles his pitchers pretty well, but his position players not as well. I personally think that this is actually a good argument for why Walker should go - Ozzie and Coop obviously mesh and work well together on decisions (I doubt Ozzie was a genius on pitcher handling just on his own), where as the results (Ozzie's decisions) seem to indicate that Walker is not providing Ozzie with the right information. So there's one good reason to suggest that Walker may not be the right guy for Ozzie at hitting coach.

 

[iamshack]

Is it the advanced scouts, or is it that the players and coaching staff are not paying attention to the information provided to them?

 

This is one area that Ozzie is truly a weak manager. He doesn't understand matchups well, and doesn't adapt his lineups and in game decisions to fit the data available. I don't expect a manager to ALWAYS follow the numbers - baseball is not entirely about stats. But Ozzie regularly makes poor lineup and matchup decisions for no apparent reason at all, in the face of obvious reasons to do otherwise.

 

Its always seemed odd to me that Ozzie handles his pitchers pretty well, but his position players not as well. I personally think that this is actually a good argument for why Walker should go - Ozzie and Coop obviously mesh and work well together on decisions (I doubt Ozzie was a genius on pitcher handling just on his own), where as the results (Ozzie's decisions) seem to indicate that Walker is not providing Ozzie with the right information. So there's one good reason to suggest that Walker may not be the right guy for Ozzie at hitting coach.

 

I smell what you are stepping in, but I think there is WAY too much that we don't know about to make some of those leaps...

[NorthSideSox72]

I smell what you are stepping in, but I think there is WAY too much that we don't know about to make some of those leaps...

I don't think they are any more leaps than its a leap to say the advanced scouts aren't doing their jobs. Its all guesswork, since we are not in the clubhouse. I just think that Ozzie needs a hitting coach who can coach HIM on some things, as well as do a solid job preparing hitters with as much data as they can for what is coming up. And it APPEARS, from what I can see, that Walker is in the middle of the area where those things are failing. That doesn't mean 100% that it is his fault, but I think it increases the chances that he has some responsibility in it (by the very nature of his job).

 

I won't tout the silly and obviously unfounded arguments about him supposedly teaching lift-and-pull, or that Walker doesn't know what he is doing, etc. I am going on actual evidence, as stated above, and trying to make the best guess on where the responsibility lies. And at least some of it lies with Walker.

 

[iamshack]

I don't think they are any more leaps than its a leap to say the advanced scouts aren't doing their jobs. Its all guesswork, since we are not in the clubhouse. I just think that Ozzie needs a hitting coach who can coach HIM on some things, as well as do a solid job preparing hitters with as much data as they can for what is coming up. And it APPEARS, from what I can see, that Walker is in the middle of the area where those things are failing. That doesn't mean 100% that it is his fault, but I think it increases the chances that he has some responsibility in it (by the very nature of his job).

 

I won't tout the silly and obviously unfounded arguments about him supposedly teaching lift-and-pull, or that Walker doesn't know what he is doing, etc. I am going on actual evidence, as stated above, and trying to make the best guess on where the responsibility lies. And at least some of it lies with Walker.

 

I have always struggled with this sort of argument. I find it hard to believe most of the time that people actually in the situation, who do this for a living, are not privy to AT THE VERY LEAST the same information that dopes like us can gather on the internet. I guess I have always assumed that not only do people in his position have this information available to them, but far more information available to them that we do not have. Additionally, he has input from players and other coaches as well.

 

Another thing that complicates the issue is that Ozzie simply is not the most articulate of communicators. You're not going to get the kind of information out of him that you are going to hear from Tony LaRussa or Terry Francona. However, when he wants to (and why this is, I don't know), Ozzie has made it clear that he knows juuuusssstttt a bit more than we give him credit for. He just doesn't really care to discuss that with the press.

 

While I know many of us question the lineup decisions and the PH decisions Ozzie makes, personally, I just have a really difficult time with the notion that I know better than he does. Others obviously do not share this sentiment. That being the case, I certainly don't believe he is above criticism - I just think there is a lot we are assuming that we don't know and it's difficult to isolate the issues without really knowing what is going on.

 

And you are right, this reasoning applies to the advanced scouting as well. I stand corrected.

[ThunderBolt]

Perfectly stated. Raines was shown the door and probably did more than any other coaches not named Razor Shines or Joey Cora.

Wait, was Raines fired or did he choose to leave? I honestly can't remember.

[southsider2k5]

Wait, was Raines fired or did he choose to leave? I honestly can't remember.

 

Technically he was not asked back. His contract was up, he got no extention.

[kitekrazy]

I think the organization seems to obtain too many players that have the "swing for the fence" profile. They can never hit to the opposite field. Sure they can draw walks and then it takes 3 hits to get them home.

 

When they stop hitting home runs then we see their other weaknesses.

[NorthSideSox72]

I have always struggled with this sort of argument. I find it hard to believe most of the time that people actually in the situation, who do this for a living, are not privy to AT THE VERY LEAST the same information that dopes like us can gather on the internet. I guess I have always assumed that not only do people in his position have this information available to them, but far more information available to them that we do not have. Additionally, he has input from players and other coaches as well.

 

Another thing that complicates the issue is that Ozzie simply is not the most articulate of communicators. You're not going to get the kind of information out of him that you are going to hear from Tony LaRussa or Terry Francona. However, when he wants to (and why this is, I don't know), Ozzie has made it clear that he knows juuuusssstttt a bit more than we give him credit for. He just doesn't really care to discuss that with the press.

 

While I know many of us question the lineup decisions and the PH decisions Ozzie makes, personally, I just have a really difficult time with the notion that I know better than he does. Others obviously do not share this sentiment. That being the case, I certainly don't believe he is above criticism - I just think there is a lot we are assuming that we don't know and it's difficult to isolate the issues without really knowing what is going on.

 

And you are right, this reasoning applies to the advanced scouting as well. I stand corrected.

You are kind of agreeing with me here, but maybe I didn't articulate it well. I am in agreement with you that Ozzie, Walker and the coaching staff are almost assuredly privy to every piece of data we are, and then some. What I am saying is, it looks to me like Walker is missing the boat in two areas. One, since the data is there but the performance of his charges reflects an apparent lack of that knowledge, then there is a disconnect there. Could be the players not listening or implementing, could be Walker not delivering it in a useful way, or could be (probably is) some combination. Two, I think his focus is wrong. Look at Coop. Coop spends lots of time coaching the pitchers on their mechanics and delivery and strategy, but he clearly ALSO makes sure that Ozzie knows what he needs to know. It appears to me (I know, its just my view), that Walker doesn't do this.

 

So I am not at all saying the data isn't available. I am saying that Walker's focus, and his ability to get his hitters in line with the information, both appear to be off, and are not good matches for a manager like Ozzie who needs some help in this area.

 

[iamshack]

You are kind of agreeing with me here, but maybe I didn't articulate it well. I am in agreement with you that Ozzie, Walker and the coaching staff are almost assuredly privy to every piece of data we are, and then some. What I am saying is, it looks to me like Walker is missing the boat in two areas. One, since the data is there but the performance of his charges reflects an apparent lack of that knowledge, then there is a disconnect there. Could be the players not listening or implementing, could be Walker not delivering it in a useful way, or could be (probably is) some combination. Two, I think his focus is wrong. Look at Coop. Coop spends lots of time coaching the pitchers on their mechanics and delivery and strategy, but he clearly ALSO makes sure that Ozzie knows what he needs to know. It appears to me (I know, its just my view), that Walker doesn't do this.

 

So I am not at all saying the data isn't available. I am saying that Walker's focus, and his ability to get his hitters in line with the information, both appear to be off, and are not good matches for a manager like Ozzie who needs some help in this area.

 

No, I knew what you're saying. What I am saying is that just because the lineups and the pinch hitters don't always appear to jive with what data we have seen should suggest, perhaps there is other data and input we are not privy to which is driving the decisions that we are not understanding. Or...maybe we are right and Ozzie just doesn't seem to care what the numbers say in many instances.

 

Who knows, Walker might be pounding away at Ozzie with statistics up the wazoo and Ozzie just doesn't want to hear it.

 

Until I know otherwise, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt in terms of having the right data in front of them, and being able to extract value from that data in order to make the decisions they do.

[greg775]

Kenny and Oz are good baseball men; they obviously like Walker. If they thought he was no good they would dump him. They want to succeed.

I don't understand our 3B coach mistakes year after year.

Hopefully he's gotten better. I don't remember as many dumb send homes of late.