Woohoo!

[nitetrain8601]

lol

 

I think that the defense is more that there is no proof we would get any better with another coach, as there is no evidence that its the coaching that has made the Sox players ineffective.

 

My guess is that my question will go unanswered by the Walker detractors.

 

 

 

If Walker was the reason the players arent performing, wouldnt it stand to reason that they would do better under another hitting coach?

 

Lemme ask the Walker followers, is there ever a way to tell how a manager/coaching change/gm change/etc will affect a ball club? If not, which is what you're essentially arguing, why fire any manager? Why not keep Jerry Manuel after '03?

[Buehrle>Wood]

Lemme ask the Walker followers, is there ever a way to tell how a manager/coaching change/gm change/etc will affect a ball club? If not, which is what you're essentially arguing, why fire any manager? Why not keep Jerry Manuel after '03?

Bing bing bing.

 

 

I mean, is anyone really genuinely happy with Walker holding his spot down? Please answer this.

[BigSqwert]

Soxbadger,

 

What would be a plausible reason to fire a hitting coach in your eyes?

[fathom]

Bing bing bing.

 

 

I mean, is anyone really genuinely happy with Walker holding his spot down? Please answer this.

 

Walker could be the greatest hitting coach ever, but if he's not getting through to the hitters, then he needs to go.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

The reason for Jermaine Dye's second half collapse is Greg Walker. He started taking his advice at the All-Star break, despite his MVP like numbers, and when straight downhill.

 

The reason for Carlos Quentin's low numbers in 09 is all because of Greg Walker. CQ's great numbers in 08 had nothing to do with Greg Walker.

 

This year, Alexei Ramirez started taking walks and raising OBP. This, however, was not the doing of Greg Walker.

 

 

 

Kotsay revitalized his career here, Konerko had a bounce back year, AJP had a career year, Beckham adjusted well to major league pitching.

 

Point being there are sooo many loose ends out there to evaluate, you cant be vitriolic towards Walker. If you feel like it's time for a change of pace, hold that opinion. But you cant really say you KNOW walker is the reason for certain failures.

 

We're not with the team daily. It's not one of the things we can really know. As much as we wish it was.

Uh, no. Kotsay had a great season last year and was hurt when he was with Boston. Theo sent him out because he gets trigger-happy and makes deals just to make deals (see the Kotchman and LaRoche moves for another example). When Kotsay got healthy and picked up some playing time he produced like he always has when healthy.

[Wanne]

I can't remember which announcer it was...and I want to say Blyleven...but he was talking about fundamental hitting or something to that effect and he was mentioning watching the Sox take BP before games and said not one of them practiced any taking the ball the other way, hitting up the middle, etc...and everybody was up there just jacking away seeing how far they could hit the ball. Not sure what bearing this has but it always just kind of stuck in my head.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Walker could be the greatest hitting coach ever, but if he's not getting through to the hitters, then he needs to go.

Rios should be the litmus test. If Rios is hitting in May 2010 then Walker can stay. If he's not then ship Walker out of here. Rios is Walker's first big project, and we need the guy to hit because he's a part of our future and we're paying him a lot of money.

[whitesoxfan101]

Accountability isn't one of the strengths of this organization right now.

[Soxbadger]

What reasons would I fire a hitting coach?

 

Conflict with the manager. Hitting coach and manager do not have the same philosophy.

 

Other than that I dont really think that a hitting coach is very important. I guess I feel like Ozzie likes him and more importantly the players like him. Im not sure that ive ever heard a bad word said about Walker. All players do is compliment him and say that he works as hard as anyone (or at least that is what I can recollect.)

 

Its the players job to hit the ball, in my lifetime I cant name any hitting coaches that I think make a huge difference, and there really are only a handful of pitching coaches who you can say the same about.

 

For the most part hitting and pitching coaches are whipping boys.

 

[nitetrain8601]

What reasons would I fire a hitting coach?

 

Conflict with the manager. Hitting coach and manager do not have the same philosophy.

 

Other than that I dont really think that a hitting coach is very important. I guess I feel like Ozzie likes him and more importantly the players like him. Im not sure that ive ever heard a bad word said about Walker. All players do is compliment him and say that he works as hard as anyone (or at least that is what I can recollect.)

 

Its the players job to hit the ball, in my lifetime I cant name any hitting coaches that I think make a huge difference, and there really are only a handful of pitching coaches who you can say the same about.

 

For the most part hitting and pitching coaches are whipping boys.

 

Didn't someone here say that Walker and Ozzie didn't get along almost all of last year? Also, I'm sure Rusty LaRue worked as hard as anyone, but it doesn't mean the Bulls should've kept him in favor of someone who can do their job better. Off the top of my head, Cleveland and Texas in this decade took off after getting new hitting instructors.

[Soxbadger]

Indians scored less runs than the Sox last year.

 

Texas has scored 719 runs this year, scored 901 last year.

 

I personally havent seen anyone from management state Walker isnt doing his job, so Im not sure what your criteria is for his job. My criteria is not based on the success of players who he basically has no control over and I dont make changes just to make changes.

[nitetrain8601]

Indians scored less runs than the Sox last year.

 

Texas has scored 719 runs this year, scored 901 last year.

 

I personally havent seen anyone from management state Walker isnt doing his job, so Im not sure what your criteria is for his job. My criteria is not based on the success of players who he basically has no control over and I dont make changes just to make changes.

 

I'm stating when they made the changes. Cleveland made there's sometime in 2005 or 2006. Texas made their's around the same time. And teaching is Walker's job. Managing the hitting is Walker's job. Getting the players to know how to perform their tasks as hitters is Walker's job. So far, he's failing miserably at one aspect in that, from what you state, say he preaches using all fields, but none of the players listen to him.

Edited September 24, 2009 by nitetrain8601

[Flash Tizzle]

I don't need a legitimate reason not to want Walker around. I hate his face, I hate his name, and whenever he talks I black out because my mind can't comprehend his redneck dialect.

 

Get rid of him.

 

SSI also seems to dislike him, so that's the only reason I need.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Flash Tizzle

[Soxbadger]

And teaching is Walker's job. Managing the hitting is Walker's job. Getting the players to know how to perform their tasks as hitters is Walker's job.

 

I disagree on this.

 

Professional baseball players already know how to hit, they already know how to perform the task, they wouldnt be in the mlb if they didnt. The problem is that each hitter is unique, and for most of them it is their uniqueness that makes them great. No one will hit like Frank Thomas, it wasnt the hitting coach that made him.

 

Walkers job is to prepare the hitters, and I believe that he is doing that.

 

I just dont believe the Sox are filled with players who actually care to listen. And that is an indictment of the players, not the coaching staff.

 

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

What reasons would I fire a hitting coach?

 

Conflict with the manager. Hitting coach and manager do not have the same philosophy.

 

Other than that I dont really think that a hitting coach is very important. I guess I feel like Ozzie likes him and more importantly the players like him. Im not sure that ive ever heard a bad word said about Walker. All players do is compliment him and say that he works as hard as anyone (or at least that is what I can recollect.)

 

Its the players job to hit the ball, in my lifetime I cant name any hitting coaches that I think make a huge difference, and there really are only a handful of pitching coaches who you can say the same about.

 

For the most part hitting and pitching coaches are whipping boys.

Would you say Coop is just a whipping boy then? It's f***ed up how people can say Walker doesn't have much influence/control over the situation and then praise Coop.

 

And also, if the players like Walker so much, and if the organization likes Walker so much, then maybe that is part of the reason they're all s***. Maybe these miserable f***s need a drill sergeant in there. Or maybe they just need a dunce corner and after every s***ty AB, that player will have to put on the dunce hat and sit there in silence at the end of the bench while the other players spit on him and throw garbage at him. And if by the fourth inning the entire lineup is sitting there on the end of the bench and there's no one left to put in, just call the game, forfeit, and save the arms on the pitching staff.

[Soxbadger]

Well you could have read my caveat:

 

and there really are only a handful of pitching coaches who you can say the same about.

 

The difference with Coop is that there are a good amount of players who did not perform as well before he was the pitching coach, or as well after he was the pitching coach.

 

With Walker there is absolutely no evidence of players being better and performing worse, or being worse and performing better. Not to mention pitching and hitting are completely different. As a pitcher you control the game, so if Coop says "use your curveball more" well you can throw it more. As the hitter the pitcher is still in control. So even if Walker is telling them 100% the right information, the pitcher can still attack their weakness.

 

As for the rest, good luck running a team like that. I personally think baseball players perform the best when they are enjoying the game.

[Flash Tizzle]

I disagree on this.

 

Professional baseball players already know how to hit, they already know how to perform the task, they wouldnt be in the mlb if they didnt. The problem is that each hitter is unique, and for most of them it is their uniqueness that makes them great. No one will hit like Frank Thomas, it wasnt the hitting coach that made him.

 

Walkers job is to prepare the hitters, and I believe that he is doing that.

 

I just dont believe the Sox are filled with players who actually care to listen. And that is an indictment of the players, not the coaching staff.

So what you're suggesting here is that Walker does his job in preparing hitters for upcoming pitchers (and that's certainly important); yet the players on our team just don't listen? Now when you consider that only a few players (Dye, maybe Podsednik, Wise) will not return in '10, and maybe an additional player unknown as of now will be traded, we're going to have a large percentage of this seasons roster here for 2010. What's the purpose of having him around? You know what, if the players are going to ignore the hitting coach I'd rather it be someone else. I'm tired of Walker. Even if absolutely nothing changes, it'll atleast be another name.

 

It's like the whole Anderson issue. It was at the point where whether people believed he was mistreated by Guillen, or was nothing more than a 4th OF, I just wanted him gone so I didn't have to hear his name anymore. Let us build resentment for another hitting coach.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Flash Tizzle

[Soxbadger]

Even if absolutely nothing changes, it'll atleast be another name.

 

Thats where I disagree, I think continuity in a coaching staff brings success.

 

And I really dont think there is much for a hitting coach to do, unless its a huge mechanical flaw or you notice that they completely changed their swing, there is not much you can do.

 

Not to mention, the reason why the Sox offense is doing bad is JD and CQ. CQ is coming off an injury so well see what happens next year, JD was amazing in the first half, horrible in the 2nd. Not sure what any hitting coach could have done with that. Rios was slumping bad when the Sox got him, it was kind of wishful thinking to believe hed just turn it around immediately.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

According to KW, while Walker is the hitting coach, Cora, Baines, and Ozzie all have imput with the hitters. If Walker must be fired, those three should go with him.

[nitetrain8601]

I disagree on this.

 

Professional baseball players already know how to hit, they already know how to perform the task, they wouldnt be in the mlb if they didnt. The problem is that each hitter is unique, and for most of them it is their uniqueness that makes them great. No one will hit like Frank Thomas, it wasnt the hitting coach that made him.

 

Walkers job is to prepare the hitters, and I believe that he is doing that.

 

I just dont believe the Sox are filled with players who actually care to listen. And that is an indictment of the players, not the coaching staff.

 

So the Sox have had players for over 6 years not willing to listen? In that situation, Kenny needs to be fired since he brings in players who are deaf.

 

 

Would you say Coop is just a whipping boy then? It's f***ed up how people can say Walker doesn't have much influence/control over the situation and then praise Coop.

 

And also, if the players like Walker so much, and if the organization likes Walker so much, then maybe that is part of the reason they're all s***. Maybe these miserable f***s need a drill sergeant in there. Or maybe they just need a dunce corner and after every s***ty AB, that player will have to put on the dunce hat and sit there in silence at the end of the bench while the other players spit on him and throw garbage at him. And if by the fourth inning the entire lineup is sitting there on the end of the bench and there's no one left to put in, just call the game, forfeit, and save the arms on the pitching staff.

 

But Walker can control weaknesses and have a direct effect on hitting just like Coop does on pitching. He can tell his hitters to stop trying to pull outside sliders. He could tell them to go the way of the pitch instead of pulling which it seems almost everyone on the team does.

 

Well you could have read my caveat:

 

 

 

The difference with Coop is that there are a good amount of players who did not perform as well before he was the pitching coach, or as well after he was the pitching coach.

 

With Walker there is absolutely no evidence of players being better and performing worse, or being worse and performing better. Not to mention pitching and hitting are completely different. As a pitcher you control the game, so if Coop says "use your curveball more" well you can throw it more. As the hitter the pitcher is still in control. So even if Walker is telling them 100% the right information, the pitcher can still attack their weakness.

 

As for the rest, good luck running a team like that. I personally think baseball players perform the best when they are enjoying the game.

 

You don't know if the players are going to perform better or worse without getting some new blood, a new voice in there. Again, are you saying if the Sox should've never fired Jerry Manuel as there was no evidence that they would do better without him?

 

So what you're suggesting here is that Walker does his job in preparing hitters for upcoming pitchers (and that's certainly important); yet the players on our team just don't listen? Now when you consider that only a few players (Dye, maybe Podsednik, Wise) will not return in '10, and maybe an additional player unknown as of now will be traded, we're going to have a large percentage of this seasons roster here for 2010. What's the purpose of having him around? You know what, if the players are going to ignore the hitting coach I'd rather it be someone else. I'm tired of Walker. Even if absolutely nothing changes, it'll atleast be another name.

 

It's like the whole Anderson issue. It was at the point where whether people believed he was mistreated by Guillen, or was nothing more than a 4th OF, I just wanted him gone so I didn't have to hear his name anymore. Let us build resentment for another hitting coach.

 

What I'm getting is that Walker is able to prepare the players without them listening, therefore he's doing his job at the same time as not doing his job.

 

Thats where I disagree, I think continuity in a coaching staff brings success.

 

And I really dont think there is much for a hitting coach to do, unless its a huge mechanical flaw or you notice that they completely changed their swing, there is not much you can do.

 

Not to mention, the reason why the Sox offense is doing bad is JD and CQ. CQ is coming off an injury so well see what happens next year, JD was amazing in the first half, horrible in the 2nd. Not sure what any hitting coach could have done with that. Rios was slumping bad when the Sox got him, it was kind of wishful thinking to believe hed just turn it around immediately.

 

Continuity is good in the workplace if people are able to successfully do their jobs. If I have a supervisor who constantly gets ran over by his workers, which is what you're essentially saying, are you saying that is better than firing the supervisor and getting someone in there that knows what he's doing and that the people would listen to? I think that's incorrect.

[BigSqwert]

Looks like it may be official. Ugh

 

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2009/09...and_willia.html

[League]

Through 2011 according to Cowley.

[StrangeSox]

If hitting coaches are so inconsequential, why not just fire his ass and save the salary?

[WCSox]

For the most part hitting and pitching coaches are whipping boys.

 

Pitching coaches tend to be A LOT more important than hitting coaches. People like Coop, Dave Duncan, and Leo Mazzone have gotten A LOT out of pitchers who aren't all that great. Far fewer hitting coaches have had that the impact that these guys have.

 

[Soxbadger]

Well I guess this settles it:

 

"Listen, he's doing everything he can to get the hitters in a proper mindset, the proper hitting position, to have success,'' Williams said. "We give them information from advanced scouting, we have video capabilities to where the guys study not only their swing, but the opposition's pitcher. I've had conversation after conversation with Greg in terms of what he's teaching, how he's teaching it, he's open-minded to using the rest of the coaching staff, who are accomplished hitting guys in their own right, Harold Baines and Joey Cora and Ozzie as well as his input. So it's not a one-guy thing. I don't think you can put it on one guy.

"Listen, at the end of the day, it's the players that make you look smart or make you look dumb, and right now we're all not looking to smart. But we certainly have a lot to look up to.''

 

WCSox,

 

I agree completely on pitching coaches.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Soxbadger