Vazquez and Swisher Redux

[WCSox]

Link to the veterans complaining about him. I know Ozzie didn't like him, but I don't recall any teammates ripping on him.

 

Since Sox players don't rip each other through the media, I have no link. This information was posted by a member earlier this year. I have no idea if it's true or not (hence my use of the word "alleged"), but it's not difficult to imagine veterans not liking a guy who high-fives a poster of himself in the dugout.

 

And let's pretend for a minute that Swish's teammates last year loved him. Ozzie didn't, and that's the difference-maker. When things went bad for Swish last year, he sulked and refused to work with Walker. That's a not-so-subtle way of demanding a trade. If Ozzie and Swish didn't like each other, I have a difficult time believing that Swisher would've been productive in Chicago. Unhappy workers tend to not be productive workers.

 

I thought Swisher's contract was a bargain??? It was when we acquired him, but then it became an albatross after a single below average season from him. Then some how it's a good thing that we acquired an overpaid prick in Rios and an expensive Jake Peavy (He's good, but he is paid well above market average.)

 

It never became an "albatross." It became a lot of money for an immature jackass who didn't get along with the coaching staff, slumped badly down the stretch last year, and didn't offer much defensively.

 

While I'm not a fan of Rios' contract and think THAT decision may make the Swisher signing/salary-dump look like small potatoes, Rios is a better overall player than Swisher and he can play CF, which is huge. Swish is a LF/1B with a girlie arm.

 

Peavy is a Cy Young-winning stud who will win this team a ton of games next year, and I have no problem with Kenny paying him top dollar.

 

[gatnom]

While Kenny didn't really "win" the second swisher trade, it was still a good move considering the circumstances. Swisher was not getting along with or listening to the coaches, and he was getting payed a good amount of money to do so. The real thing to criticize is trading for swisher in the first place; Swisher is just not a major league center fielder.

[stretchstretch]

there's a 4 yr history of an entire team quitting under Ozzie, pointing to any individual players kinda silly at this point, doncha think???

[kitekrazy]

Phil Rogers is a f***ing moron.

 

I would assume the same for any person who reads his columns.

 

[kitekrazy]

Swisher trade in retrospect shouldn't have been made.

 

It was a stupid trade for emotional reasons.

 

[kitekrazy]

Is it possible to think all that cash now tied up with those two will force us to possibly trade Jenks, Konerko, and maybe in a couple years, Danks and/or Quentin because we can't fit them in our budget? If that happens will people tie those with the Rios waiver claim or Peavy trade?

 

Doubt it.

 

There's no salary cap in baseball.

 

[kitekrazy]

Who will KW trade this winter? Two guys who can bring a lot back would be Alexei and Jenks. This should be a fun winter!

 

GMs see the same thing we do. If funny how people mention "bring back a lot". What does that mean? They didn't sign Cabrera or Uribe. So what logic is there in "bringing back a lot?" Oh let me guess, they'll put another player like one of the other young Sox infielders so it can be their 1st year playing SS. Why make another hole that is assumed to be filled? Then with Jenks gone, Thornton becomes the closer after being one of the most consistent set up guys? I think they need to hold on to Jenks one more year and wait till the trade deadline to unload him if they need to.

 

I don't think there'll be much changes. Most likely Josh Fields will be gone.

 

[The Ginger Kid]

sometimes i get the feeling phil rogers didn't bother to watch Javy pitch in the playoffs last year, or in any important games for that matter.

[ThunderBolt]

Every rational baseball fan could have told the White Sox organization that Swisher would bounce back. Every meaningful statistic pointed towards that conclusion.

[DBAHO]

The Swisher and Vazquez trades were salary dumps more than anything, so that KW could re-load during this season and bring in what he thought was better talent in Rios and Peavy.

 

I don't have to remind people how much heat Vazquez was getting this time last year due to his lack of "balls" in high pressure situations. He was always a good pitcher in the "right" situation though, and he seems to have found it in Atlanta.

 

As for Swisher, well his antics both in the clubhouse and out of it weren't going to be tolerated for another season. Obviously he's rebounded for the Yanks and good for them. But dumping him allowed us the payroll flexibility to put in that waiver claim for Alex Rios. Was that the right move? Well that question can't be answered until mid 2010 IMO.

[MexSoxFan#1]

We messed up with Swisher IMO,I don't mind not having Vazquez,she was a mental midget anyway...plus we got Flowers and he's a good looking prospect.

[Dick Allen]

I was all for those trades so I can't rip them even if eventually they are mistakes, however, there's no guarantee Vazquez would be doing for the Sox what he's doing for the Braves. In fact there's probably a guarantee he would have been as bad as ever. Swisher wasn't going to play CF so he had no spot,and I still think you aren't going to want to be paying him what you will be paying in the next couple of years. Nunez and Flowers may pan out to be good. They claim they spend Swisher's money on Viciedo and I find it hard to believe Peavy and Rios, both of whom I would take in a heartbeat over the 2 dealt, (although I'm no fan of Rios' contract) would be here if the trades weren't made. The White Sox actually upgraded even if none of the players received in the trades ever pan out.

 

Would you rather have Viciedo, Flowers, Peavy and Rios or Richard, Russell, Poreda, Swisher, and Vazquez. I'll take the former.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Dick Allen

[nitetrain8601]

For those stating moving the salary allowed us to get Peavy and Rios, I'll argue. Javy could've and should've been gone. No doubt about that. Swisher though, when taking payscale into consideration, has proven to be a better player over the past couple of years over Rios. No way can you tell me Rios is the better player either. Rios is better with the glove, but Swisher is miles ahead offensively. Does Rios have more potential? Yes, but he's also always been a douche who's never reached it. Swisher at least has.

[nitetrain8601]

I was all for those trades so I can't rip them even if eventually they are mistakes, however, there's no guarantee Vazquez would be doing for the Sox what he's doing for the Braves. In fact there's probably a guarantee he would have been as bad as ever. Swisher wasn't going to play CF so he had no spot,and I still think you aren't going to want to be paying him what you will be paying in the next couple of years. Nunez and Flowers may pan out to be good. They claim they spend Swisher's money on Viciedo and I find it hard to believe Peavy and Rios, both of whom I would take in a heartbeat over the 2 dealt, (although I'm no fan of Rios' contract) would be here if the trades weren't made. The White Sox actually upgraded even if none of the players received in the trades ever pan out.

 

Would you rather have Viciedo, Flowers, Peavy and Rios or Richard, Russell, Poreda, Swisher, and Vazquez. I'll take the former.

 

I don't think you can look as it like that. I think you have to look at the trades seperately. If you look at it collectively, Flowers, and Peavy came from Javy(Flowers through direct trade, Viciedo probably was coming no matter what, and we got money for Peavy).

 

For Swisher, you can say we got Rios indirectly, Betemit, Nunez, and Marquez. I'd take Swisher out of all those guys.

[Dick Allen]

I don't think you can look as it like that. I think you have to look at the trades seperately. If you look at it collectively, Flowers, and Peavy came from Javy(Flowers through direct trade, Viciedo probably was coming no matter what, and we got money for Peavy).

 

For Swisher, you can say we got Rios indirectly, Betemit, Nunez, and Marquez. I'd take Swisher out of all those guys.

I wouldn't. Rios has been an All Star, can steal bases and play CF, and won't strike out 150 times if he plays every day. Money-wise, I think Rios contract is something I would rather not have, but as baseball players, I'd take Rios over Swisher any day of the week. He's a lot better player than he's shown. Its funny, it appears you want to throw out Swisher's year last year as basically a fluke, but take Rios' performance in a month and a half in a Sox uniform as how he will always perform. Rios is a good player. He's better than Aaron Rowand ever was. Vazquez was a salary dump. It freed up funds for Peavy. They couldn't have pursued Peavy is Vazquez were still here.

[Disco72]

For those stating moving the salary allowed us to get Peavy and Rios, I'll argue. Javy could've and should've been gone. No doubt about that. Swisher though, when taking payscale into consideration, has proven to be a better player over the past couple of years over Rios. No way can you tell me Rios is the better player either. Rios is better with the glove, but Swisher is miles ahead offensively. Does Rios have more potential? Yes, but he's also always been a douche who's never reached it. Swisher at least has.

 

Swisher is/was better than Rios this year, but not necessarily over the past couple years, especially considering Rios plays premium defense at a premium defensive position. You also can't say Rios has never lived up to his potential as Rios hit at/near .300 with a .350 OBP and over .850 OPS in back to back years (2006-2007) and had a good but not great year last year: .291 / .337 / .798.

 

I'm not sure how Swisher is "miles ahead offensively" than Rios. Both players are completing their sixth year in the MLB. Swisher's career line: .245 / .357 / .816 at a non-premium defensive position (1B / LF). Rios' career line: .281 / .330 / .775 at a premium defensive position. Swisher's OBP is clearly the one big advantage he has over Rios, but that is more than negated by his production as compared to others at his best positions.

 

Rios has been awful this year, but just as people argue that last year was clearly a down year for Swisher, this year looks like a clear down year for Rios. Just as some argue that it was obvious Swisher would rebound, it should be just as obvious that Rios will also rebound in 2010.

 

Frankly, I find it funny that you call Rios a douche but ignore all the "douchey" things about Swisher that make him also a bad clubhouse personality.

[WCSox]

Every rational baseball fan could have told the White Sox organization that Swisher would bounce back. Every meaningful statistic pointed towards that conclusion.

 

Unfortunately, those statistics don't account for the fact that Ozzie and Swisher didn't like each other and Swisher wasn't working with Greg Walker. If you and your boss don't like working together, you're not going to be as productive at work.

 

[ThunderBolt]

Even if Nunez turns out to be a good one, you still don't trade a young, OPB-Oriented, switch-hitting slugger, who can play 1b and every place in the OF for a set-up man.

[nitetrain8601]

I wouldn't. Rios has been an All Star, can steal bases and play CF, and won't strike out 150 times if he plays every day. Money-wise, I think Rios contract is something I would rather not have, but as baseball players, I'd take Rios over Swisher any day of the week. He's a lot better player than he's shown. Its funny, it appears you want to throw out Swisher's year last year as basically a fluke, but take Rios' performance in a month and a half in a Sox uniform as how he will always perform. Rios is a good player. He's better than Aaron Rowand ever was. Vazquez was a salary dump. It freed up funds for Peavy. They couldn't have pursued Peavy is Vazquez were still here.

 

I never uttered Aaron Rowand. In fact, I was never ever a huge fan. And I'm not taking just Rios' year in consideration. I'm looking at overall. And again, I don't care for Vazquez. In fact, I stated moving Vazquez was the right move.

 

Swisher is/was better than Rios this year, but not necessarily over the past couple years, especially considering Rios plays premium defense at a premium defensive position. You also can't say Rios has never lived up to his potential as Rios hit at/near .300 with a .350 OBP and over .850 OPS in back to back years (2006-2007) and had a good but not great year last year: .291 / .337 / .798.

 

I'm not sure how Swisher is "miles ahead offensively" than Rios. Both players are completing their sixth year in the MLB. Swisher's career line: .245 / .357 / .816 at a non-premium defensive position (1B / LF). Rios' career line: .281 / .330 / .775 at a premium defensive position. Swisher's OBP is clearly the one big advantage he has over Rios, but that is more than negated by his production as compared to others at his best positions.

 

Rios has been awful this year, but just as people argue that last year was clearly a down year for Swisher, this year looks like a clear down year for Rios. Just as some argue that it was obvious Swisher would rebound, it should be just as obvious that Rios will also rebound in 2010.

 

Frankly, I find it funny that you call Rios a douche but ignore all the "douchey" things about Swisher that make him also a bad clubhouse personality.

 

And Rios' potential is a 30/30 guy. Heck, with his talent, he should be 40/40, but who knows why he's never reached that. His defense is outstanding, and I'll never disagree with that. It's not enough to make up for his salary provided his offense stays near his career numbers. I'll take Swisher's higher OBP and OPS over Rios along with very good defense from LF and 1B positions. His CF defense was adequate, not great, just adequate. And my statement about Rios being a douche actually had to do with Swisher being called a douche. People say we got rid of Swisher because he was a douche, and he probably was, but so is Rios, so I don't buy that argument. Also, Swisher is the guy we're going to be looking for in the offseason. A LH bat with good power and OBP who can also play the field. Swisher happens to be able to switch hit.

 

 

Unfortunately, those statistics don't account for the fact that Ozzie and Swisher didn't like each other and Swisher wasn't working with Greg Walker. If you and your boss don't like working together, you're not going to be as productive at work.

 

Most people on Soxtalk, myself included, would say it's good that Swisher didn't pay attention to Walker. And whatever happened to Walker not messing with vets. It appears in Swisher's case, he does.

Edited September 27, 2009 by nitetrain8601

[WCSox]

Most people on Soxtalk, myself included, would say it's good that Swisher didn't pay attention to Walker. And whatever happened to Walker not messing with vets. It appears in Swisher's case, he does.

 

When you hit .219, you've need to work with the hitting coach. Even if you're a veteran.

 

[DBAHO]

Even if Nunez turns out to be a good one, you still don't trade a young, OPB-Oriented, switch-hitting slugger, who can play 1b and every place in the OF for a set-up man.

Which teams were out there though in the off-season that would have given up more talent for Swisher, who was coming off a really bad season and had a lot of bad vibes about his antics out of the clubhouse?

 

It's one thing to say that we should have gotten more talent for him in return, but it's another for that to actually happen, especially considering the bad economic state and the fact that players such as Bobby Abreu, Adam Dunn and Milton Bradley were out there in FA.

[ThunderBolt]

Which teams were out there though in the off-season that would have given up more talent for Swisher, who was coming off a really bad season and had a lot of bad vibes about his antics out of the clubhouse?

Here’s my 2nd point. You never trade a player when his value is at its absolute minimum.

[elrockinMT]

The Swisher trade was absolutely awful, and I'm happy to see KW getting some heat for it.

 

 

I tend to agree with this statement

[DBAHO]

Here’s my 2nd point. You never trade a player when his value is at its absolute minimum.

But who's to say Swisher's value would be higher than it was in the off-season if he stuck with us?

 

As it's been pointed, even though he was unlucky with his BABIP, he wasn't listening to his coaches, and it got to the point where Ozzie was playing DeWayne Wise over him.

 

Who's to say Swisher would have been a starter for us in 2009? And you don't exactly pay that type of money to a bench player going forward, especially when the Sox were trying to dump payroll.

[Dick Allen]

Here’s my 2nd point. You never trade a player when his value is at its absolute minimum.

His value wasn't at a minimum. They received 3 average at best guys and full salary relief, which this day and age is something. The Yankees picked up Hinske from Pittsburgh but the Pirates had to eat some of his very small deal.

 

And to say never trade a player when their value is at their minimum suggests keeping very bad players on your roster. That's not smart.