Vazquez and Swisher Redux

[nitetrain8601]

When you hit .219, you've need to work with the hitting coach. Even if you're a veteran.

 

So allegedly, why doesn't Walker tinker with guys like Thome, PK, Dye, or Pierzynski when they are struggling? And there have been definitely times where they've struggled for months.

[elrockinMT]

I wouldn't. Rios has been an All Star, can steal bases and play CF, and won't strike out 150 times if he plays every day. Money-wise, I think Rios contract is something I would rather not have, but as baseball players, I'd take Rios over Swisher any day of the week. He's a lot better player than he's shown. Its funny, it appears you want to throw out Swisher's year last year as basically a fluke, but take Rios' performance in a month and a half in a Sox uniform as how he will always perform. Rios is a good player. He's better than Aaron Rowand ever was. Vazquez was a salary dump. It freed up funds for Peavy. They couldn't have pursued Peavy is Vazquez were still here.

 

 

Rios has a ton of potential, but is he no different than Swisher as far as supposed clubhouse and/or team issues?

[DBAHO]

So allegedly, why doesn't Walker tinker with guys like Thome, PK, Dye, or Pierzynski when they are struggling? And there have been definitely times where they've struggled for months.

Probably because for the most part those guys have been succesful offensive players, so they'll stick with what has made them be successful in the batters box.

 

And a guy like PK basically struggles when he's injured, last season with the wrist problems he had early on IIRC being a perfect example.

[DBAHO]

Rios has a ton of potential, but is he no different than Swisher as far as supposed clubhouse and/or team issues?

It's safe to say you don't know what Swisher did outside the clubhouse in 2008.

 

It's been mentioned on here a few times, and well, it isn't really good I'll put it that way.

[elrockinMT]

It's safe to say you don't know what Swisher did outside the clubhouse in 2008.

 

It's been mentioned on here a few times, and well, it isn't really good I'll put it that way.

 

 

And you are right I don't know te whole story with Swisher. I do know there are obviously reasons for moves that have nothing to do with on field performance and that is ok. I will also say that it makes no diference now if we have Swisher or don't and ditto for Vazquez. What is done is done. Unless there is a pattern of bad moves I guess the bottom line is you win some and lose some. Questions raised here in this topic such as "would you rather have Peavy" etc are god points. You bet I' like the Jake Peavy move. We gave up alot of talent, but impact wise Peavy is a super pitcher and will contribute for a long time with this team. One can make an argument that Vazquez had the talent to be a #1 or #2 pitcher on a team also. but we know that for whatever reason he was a .500 guy for the most part. Why is anyones guess and there are lots of reasons given. Trades sometimes also take a few years to really pan out and who knows a couple years from now we might have a Cy Young pitcher in Peavy and an MVP in Flowers. Problem with that type of long term thinking is that we all want to win NOW. That just isn't how it worked out this year for sure and it's frustrating. But, we still had some real positive performances didn't we?

[ThunderBolt]

It's safe to say you don't know what Swisher did outside the clubhouse in 2008.

 

It's been mentioned on here a few times, and well, it isn't really good I'll put it that way.

And it's also safe to say that you don't know the whole story about Swish either. NONE OF US DO. The best we can get is from the various hit pieces by Joe Cowley, and the reactions from Ozzie AFTER Swish left.

[nitetrain8601]

Probably because for the most part those guys have been succesful offensive players, so they'll stick with what has made them be successful in the batters box.

 

And a guy like PK basically struggles when he's injured, last season with the wrist problems he had early on IIRC being a perfect example.

 

Swisher had success everywhere but here. His OPS+ since entering the league has been 101, 101, 125, 127, 92, 124. So maybe we need a new clubhouse considering his worst year came with us and three out of the last 4 years, he's had a pretty good OPS+.

 

Rios, for all the awesomeness that his stats are portrayed for wasn't even as good as Swisher in his best years offensively.

 

Rios since entering the league has OPS+ of 85, 84, 120, 122, 111, 79. With 79 being this year. At his peak offensively, he is an inferior player to Nick Swisher. Over the course of their careers, Swisher is the better player offensively and is more convenient.

 

Again, Rios' defense doesn't make up for the salary he is paid, nor the average offense he provides.

[Soxbadger]

This thread is ridiculous, 99% of the fans wanted Javy gone for nothing.

 

Swisher was junk and I dont care how well he has hit for NYY. He still has troubling splits 6 hrs at home, 21 hrs away?

 

Last year for the Sox he hit 19 hrs at the Cell, 5 hrs away.

 

He is basically a boom or bust hitter, and the Sox didnt need another one of those. Ill take Rios.

[elrockinMT]

This thread is ridiculous, 99% of the fans wanted Javy gone for nothing.

 

Swisher was junk and I dont care how well he has hit for NYY. He still has troubling splits 6 hrs at home, 21 hrs away?

 

Last year for the Sox he hit 19 hrs at the Cell, 5 hrs away.

 

He is basically a boom or bust hitter, and the Sox didnt need another one of those. Ill take Rios.

 

If 99% of our fans wanted to just give up on Vazquez I would say they were wrong. Vazquez showed signs of being a dominant hurler. Yes he tanked at the end of the season and at the worse time, but it is what it is. I don't think Javy was happy either. Tyler Flowers might be an excellent exchange for Vazquez only time will tell. But, I would disagree that either player (Javy and Nick) was a bust. It is a fact we won our division last year and this year we are below .500. Now that's a fact. Yes, we may have gone to youth and next year could be fabulous, but we gave up some important pieces of a winning team. I include letting Uribe go as a mistake, but it was made for payroll I am sure.

Edited September 27, 2009 by elrockinMT

[Soxbadger]

I liked Javy and didnt want him to be traded, but I was in such an extreme minority I just cant even imagine how people can now change their opinion.

 

As for being a bust, I didnt say either were, just that Swisher (not Javy as I think Javy is legitimate good with some issues that could be worked on) is junk and the type of hitter the Sox dont need. If the Sox had 8 high obp and ba players, Swisher would be fine. But to many of those hrs are going to be solo shots for the Sox and they needed a more complete hitter. Not to mention the Sox had to start swisher at CF (where hes not a great defender) because they already had CQ and Dye, plus Thome as Dh.

 

Swisher just really had no position and seemed to be the best trade option.

[greg775]

Javy and Swisher had to go. Javy was called out as scared to pitch in big games and Swisher was a disaster in Chicago.

 

The scary thing is we have some more guys who appear to suck and need to move on: i.e. Pena, Liney and Dotel.

[lostfan]

And it's also safe to say that you don't know the whole story about Swish either. NONE OF US DO. The best we can get is from the various hit pieces by Joe Cowley, and the reactions from Ozzie AFTER Swish left.

If the thing DBAHO was hinting at (which is pretty bad, think Josh Hamilton) turned out to be more than a rumor I wonder if you'd change your mind.

[santo=dorf]

I can't believe people are equating dumping Javy's salary with taking on Jake's. Peavy is owed a ton more in the future and Contreras' fat salary (he was making 12 million per!) will relieve that and he was gone after 2009 anyways. Rios' was a risky move and he makes A LOT more than Swisher so it makes no sense to say by dumping Swisher's salary we were able to fit in Rios'.

 

When you hit .219, you've need to work with the hitting coach. Even if you're a veteran.

So why is Rios blowing off Walker?

[Soxbadger]

Where have you heard Rios is blowing off Walker?

 

Here are Rios stats for the last 7 days:

 

316 .409 .632 1.041

 

 

[ThunderBolt]

If the thing DBAHO was hinting at (which is pretty bad, think Josh Hamilton) turned out to be more than a rumor I wonder if you'd change your mind.

It's just that a: rumor. I've heard nothing but good things about Swish prior to his coming here, and nothing but good things during his time with the Yankees. Swish played for the A's in the Moneyball Era, a time when everything that clubhouse did was under a microscope. I don't see why we need to justify trading Swish for any other reason then Ozzie and he having an irrational dislike of each other.

[Soxbadger]

Yeah its irrational to trade a player who has to play out of position, is b****ing, is a clubhouse problem and didnt hit well.

 

I wonder what the definition of rationale is in that world.

[santo=dorf]

Where have you heard Rios is blowing off Walker?

 

Here are Rios stats for the last 7 days:

 

316 .409 .632 1.041

Wasn't there an article like two weeks ago that said Rios was refusing tape and wanted to wait next year before working with Walker?

 

What is the point of your sample size? Why don't you go back and add one more game, oh you know, the one where he went 0-6?

 

[santo=dorf]

Since that 0-6 game Rios' has improved his overall OBP by 3 points, and SLG by 1 point. Yay for hot streaks when we're out of contention.

[Soxbadger]

The article didnt say that at all.

 

The article stated that the White Sox coaching staff didnt want to screw with Rios to much.

 

And so what about the sample size?

 

Why not add the sample size of Rios whole career to this year:

 

.280 .330 .443 .773

 

Oh yeah that wouldnt support your argument.

 

Cant pick and choose sample sizes, Rios has been hitting better the last week, there is absolutely no denying it and the statistics support it as well.

 

[ThunderBolt]

Yeah its irrational to trade a player who has to play out of position, is b****ing, is a clubhouse problem and didnt hit well.

 

I wonder what the definition of rationale is in that world.

Swisher was drafted as a CF. The only reason that he played anywhere else in Oakland was because they had Mark Kotsay in center, who was excellent in his healthy years. The only reason the arguement was made that he was playing out of position here was so Ozzie could validate playing Dewayne Wise everyday. Even in a "bad year" Swish hits 24 bombs, and walked 82 times in 497 AB's

[santo=dorf]

Nick Swisher's career numbers: .245 .356 .459 .815

 

Looks like an upgrade over Rios, but nobody is using career numbers in any argument because there are so many factors that go on in an individual year.

 

Scouts (yes there was an article on that too) and numbers suggest Rios has become a different player since getting that fatass contract. That's why you see numbers below his career average after signing it and numbers above it.

 

Suppose Rios is still stinking it up come next July trade deadline (assume he is as bad as Swisher 2008, not Rios of 2009.) If a package equivalent to the Swisher II trade is offered for Rios, do you take it?

Edited September 27, 2009 by santo=dorf

[Soxbadger]

No Rios plays a premium defensive posiiton, so Id expect more for him than Swisher.

 

Konerko was drafted as a catcher, should we move him there?

 

People were concerned about Swisher in CF before he played 1 game, most fans just thought that he would be such an offensive improvement that it would make up for his potentially horrendous CF.

 

[santo=dorf]

Rios hasn't been that good in CF and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Sox stick him in right and have Wise/Pods in CF after failing to sign Figgins.

 

If Rios plays to his career offensive numbers in RF, his OPS would still be 24 points lower than Dye's current disappointing season.

 

That's not worth a $60 million commitment.

[ThunderBolt]

No Rios plays a premium defensive posiiton, so Id expect more for him than Swisher.

 

Konerko was drafted as a catcher, should we move him there?

 

People were concerned about Swisher in CF before he played 1 game, most fans just thought that he would be such an offensive improvement that it would make up for his potentially horrendous CF.

Konerko switched to 1b in the minors. Swish came up as a CF, and played their in every stop in his career where he was not blocked by a superior defender. The comparison is absurd. Swish is above-average in 1b, Rf, Cf, and LF. Rios is awesome in CF, and above-average in RF. They're both good, versatile players.

 

[son of a rude]

Rios hasn't been that good in CF and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Sox stick him in right and have Wise/Pods in CF after failing to sign Figgins.

 

If Rios plays to his career offensive numbers in RF, his OPS would still be 24 points lower than Dye's current disappointing season.

 

That's not worth a $60 million commitment.

What are you talking about? Quit being blinded by your obvious bias against Rios.

Edited September 27, 2009 by son of a rude