prochisox Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Turning the page: White Sox Mercifully, the 2009 Chicago baseball season ends this weekend. Between the drama queens on one side of town and the spend-and-purge management on the other side, it's been a big ado about nothing. Where do we go from here? Glad you asked. Here's one thought about the White Sox ... but first, a pause to acknowledge a wise reader who wrote recently to ask if Ken Williams makes so many trades/moves because he gets bored. You do wonder at times but there are some advantages to the pattern, one being that no trade possibility is too preposterous to consider. So let's consider a deal that would be the Big Kahuna of this winter if it were to go down, one that has been rumored on some message boards since Milwaukee Brewers owner Mark Attanasio gave the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel a hugely provocative quote. He confirmed the obvious -- that Prince Fielder will never have more trade value than he does now, under the Brewers' control for two seasons, including one that's left on a two-year contract. Does that mean the Brewers will trade Fielder? Hardly. In many ways, the slugging first baseman is the Brewers. But do you keep him around, paying him heavily when you don't have the pitching to contend? That's the question. The White Sox are one of perhaps three teams that have enough arguably surplus pitching to pull off such a king-sized deal. While Williams has somewhat tied his hands by picking up Alex Rios and Jake Peavy, you can't rule anything out, especially not when you clear some salary off the books. So here's the proposal: John Danks or Gavin Floyd or Bobby Jenks and two or three other pitching prospects from those in the organization, a group headed by Lucas Harrell, Carlos Torres and John Ely. That's a 4 or 5-for-1 deal, with the pitching-thin Brewers getting pitching to restock the staff. The decision gets a lot tougher for the White Sox if Milwaukee insists on Dan Hudson, who in my mind is the closest thing to an untouchable player that the Sox have in their farm system. Would it be better than the offers from Boston (that can offer Clay Buchholz and first-base prospect Lars Anderson) or San Francisco? There's no way to know but in Danks/Floyd, Hudson and Jenks, that's a lot of pitching to put into any deal. I'd hate to see those guys go but for two monster years from Fielder I would do it. Milwaukee also has expendable shortstop J.J. Hardy, who would give the Sox the option to move Alexei Ramirez back to second base. The Brewers would need a first baseman but I can't see Paul Konerko, a year away from free agency, waiving his 5-and-10 no-trade rights to give the National League a spin. There's room for Konerko and Fielder on the same roster, with them shuttling between first base and DH. Fielder is a difference maker. You get him if you can. The White Sox match up well enough with the Brewers to be an alternative if the Brewers do decide now's the time to move Fielder. http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune....age-part-1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Sigh. He is reading Soxtalk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 He is acting more like one of those sports show callers than a journalist lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxbrian Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Danks, Jenks, Ely, and Torres? Wow that seems like a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Sure does seem like alot. We already have an expensive fatboy who has back issues only because of fatness. Why do we need another guy who has zero respect for his own body. It's risky trading for someone out of shape, and I think that factor would have to WEIGH into the deal. I'm funny but also serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prochisox Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 QUOTE (knightni @ Oct 3, 2009 -> 10:39 AM) Sigh. He is reading Soxtalk. Haha I know, he stole my idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAfan Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I suggested Prince Fielder in one thread, but it was mentioned he's a Scott Boras client. If true, the Sox aren't going to go anywhere near him. Plus, the Sox need to find ways to improve without weakening other parts of the ball club. Take out Danks or Floyd and the Sox are back to having a starting rotation that is one pitcher short. That cost us the division this year. If Contreras and the other 5th guys had pitched .500 ball, we'd be right there this weekend fighting for the playoffs. You can pencil in Dan Hudson, but he started this year in LOW-A. I'd rather have Hudson be the insurance in case Freddy Garcia flames out again. Sox could add Nick Johnson as a lefty DH/1B without giving up anything. Sure, he doesn't have Fielder's power or run producing ability, but he brings a very high OBP and a lefty bat. Then you need an offensively minded right fielder and you could have enough offense to go with the best pitching in baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 QUOTE (VAfan @ Oct 3, 2009 -> 12:39 PM) I suggested Prince Fielder in one thread, but it was mentioned he's a Scott Boras client. If true, the Sox aren't going to go anywhere near him. Plus, the Sox need to find ways to improve without weakening other parts of the ball club. Take out Danks or Floyd and the Sox are back to having a starting rotation that is one pitcher short. That cost us the division this year. If Contreras and the other 5th guys had pitched .500 ball, we'd be right there this weekend fighting for the playoffs. You can pencil in Dan Hudson, but he started this year in LOW-A. I'd rather have Hudson be the insurance in case Freddy Garcia flames out again. Contreras and the other 5th starters were actually quite a bit above average in terms of performance of 5th starters. I wouldn't do this deal as written, but the reason we lost wasn't that the 5th starter was giving up too many runs, it's that the offense wasn't scoring against the other team's starters, the defense was allowing too many unearned runs, and the bullpen couldn't hold leads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 3, 2009 -> 07:47 PM) Contreras and the other 5th starters were actually quite a bit above average in terms of performance of 5th starters. I wouldn't do this deal as written, but the reason we lost wasn't that the 5th starter was giving up too many runs, it's that the offense wasn't scoring against the other team's starters, the defense was allowing too many unearned runs, and the bullpen couldn't hold leads. IIRC, about a week and a half ago, for the year, the Sox 4th and 5th SP's were like 15-29. with an ERA in the high 5's or low 6's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 QUOTE (whitesoxbrian @ Oct 3, 2009 -> 05:42 PM) Danks, Jenks, Ely, and Torres? Wow that seems like a lot. It looked like one of Danks or Floyd or Jenks, and the 3 prospects. I doubt Jenks and three prospects that don't include Hudson would get a deal done for Fielder. I wouldn't include Hudson in a package. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 QUOTE (beck72 @ Oct 3, 2009 -> 12:50 PM) IIRC, about a week and a half ago, for the year, the Sox 4th and 5th SP's were like 15-29. with an ERA in the high 5's or low 6's. That was their record, but their ERA's was in the high 4's. The average ERA for #4-#5 starting pitchers is in the high 5's. The Sox 4th-5th starters have ERA's much better than the league average for those slots. Their record is terrible though. Which means that their starters are doing what they're supposed to do...but the people around them weren't helping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 "John Danks or Gavin Floyd or Bobby Jenks and two or three other pitching prospects from those in the organization, a group headed by Lucas Harrell, Carlos Torres and John Ely." Like Jenks has anywhere near the value of Floyd or Danks... Like Carlos Torres and John Ely are "heading" any category of Sox pitching prospects... Like Kenny deals with Scott Borass... Like Kenny makes deals just because he's "bored"... STFU Phil Rogers. Go back to your baseless and absurd Peavy-for-Zambrano speculating already because as dumb as that idea is, it's still better than this one. Just going by what Phil Rogers has said, Stefan Gartrell, Juan Silverio, and Carlos Torres would probably be enough to get a young star. Drunken Score callers' trade ideas > Phil Rogers' trade ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco72 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 3, 2009 -> 03:53 PM) That was their record, but their ERA's was in the high 4's. The average ERA for #4-#5 starting pitchers is in the high 5's. The Sox 4th-5th starters have ERA's much better than the league average for those slots. Their record is terrible though. Which means that their starters are doing what they're supposed to do...but the people around them weren't helping. One huge reason for the difference between the horrible W/L and the decent ERA is unearned runs. The combination of bad defense and pitchers who can't pitch over these mistakes = many more losses. Count gave up 20% more runs than his ERA includes while Colon gave up 44% more runs than his ERA includes. By contrast, Buehrle's total runs given up is only 6.6% higher than his earned runs. Better pitchers will pitch over the defense's mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveBrown85 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Oct 3, 2009 -> 12:55 PM) Sure does seem like alot. We already have an expensive fatboy who has back issues only because of fatness. Why do we need another guy who has zero respect for his own body. It's risky trading for someone out of shape, and I think that factor would have to WEIGH into the deal. I'm funny but also serious. Just because someone is fat doesnt mean they dont take care of their body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggins Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Id rather get Adrian Gonzalez anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 QUOTE (whitesoxbrian @ Oct 3, 2009 -> 12:42 PM) Danks, Jenks, Ely, and Torres? Wow that seems like a lot. It's just stupid. Danks is going nowhere. Kenny will have all kinds of competition if he shops Jenks. Qualls and Bell will be among those on the trading block, plus Mike Gonzalez, Rafael Soriano, Valverde, Wagner, Hoffman, etc. are all free agents. Maybe Huston Street is on the block too. There are all kinds of options, so it's not like Jenks would be the far-and-away #1 closer on the market which other teams will fight over. Kenny will not be able to get a major haul out of Jenks when he's projected to make $7M+ in arbitration and other guys should be out there as free agents for around that same price and only costing draft picks as opposed to top MLB/MiLB talent. And let's say the Sox offered Jenks and 3 pitching prospects for Fielder. There is no f***ing way the Brewers would even consider Ely or Torres in that group, and even if we made that offer we still wouldn't have enough. If the Sox want Fielder (which they won't unless he changes agents) then we're talking Jenks + Flowers + Hudson + more. Prince would command a major haul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Man, Phil Rogers sucks. BUt are we the drama queens or the spend and purge management? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 3, 2009 -> 03:17 PM) Man, Phil Rogers sucks. BUt are we the drama queens or the spend and purge management? Spend and purge. We picked up Rios and Peavy while letting 2009-10 free agents go. But apparently Kenny may have made those moves because he was bored. Phil Rogers : baseball knowledge :: pruno : wine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 QUOTE (DaveBrown85 @ Oct 3, 2009 -> 03:04 PM) Just because someone is fat doesnt mean they dont take care of their body. Now that's comedy 101. We don't need Prince Fielder, we need an athletic OF with plus offense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 QUOTE (daggins @ Oct 3, 2009 -> 03:05 PM) Id rather get Adrian Gonzalez anyway I'd take either one, but not with Rogers package. I had a thread, and my package was: Viciedo, Flowers, Shelby, Torres, Hynick, Nix. They might demand Hudson, and that's where I up it to an 8-for-2 deal by offering: Viciedo, Flowers, Shelby, Torres, Hynick, Shirek, Harrell, Nix for Fielder and Hardy. If they abo I then turn around and send Hardy out for a first base/catching prospect or BP arm, since he'll be expendable as Alexei is (in my opinion) the better player. But how in Phil Roger's mind is Hudson more untouchable than Gavin Floyd/John Danks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 The Red Sox would beat any trade Kenny could come up with. Rogers has to know this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Oct 3, 2009 -> 03:21 PM) Now that's comedy 101. We don't need Prince Fielder, we need an athletic OF with plus offense Yeah, who needs a 25-year-old lefty stick hitting .297/.408/.593/1.002 with 44 HR and 138 RBI in the middle of their lineup? I mean what a waste. Maybe if he wasn't so fat he wouldn't have had to wait so long (the age of 23) to post his first 50 HR season. Stop the insanity! Get this man a powerbar and a good pair of running shoes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Just once I want to see a columnist admit he stole his idea from the internets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Oct 3, 2009 -> 03:32 PM) I'd take either one, but not with Rogers package. I had a thread, and my package was: Viciedo, Flowers, Shelby, Torres, Hynick, Nix. They might demand Hudson, and that's where I up it to an 8-for-2 deal by offering: Viciedo, Flowers, Shelby, Torres, Hynick, Shirek, Harrell, Nix for Fielder and Hardy. If they abo I then turn around and send Hardy out for a first base/catching prospect or BP arm, since he'll be expendable as Alexei is (in my opinion) the better player. But how in Phil Roger's mind is Hudson more untouchable than Gavin Floyd/John Danks? Prince is not a possibility. Kenny and Reinsdorf do not work with Scott Borass. For Gonzalez we'd have to start with something like Flowers + Viciedo + Hudson + D2 and then let the Padres have their pick of any 2-3 more out of our system. Or maybe we would have to throw in Alexei, but if we did I'd ask for Everth Cabrera back. And I'd do either deal in a heartbeat. If we make or win the Series in 2010 then the payroll is going to go up quite a bit, enough to keep our rotation together for a major run over the following 2-3 years. And I know that would be a s***load of talent to give up, and people (me included) hate the drain the farm, but winning titles at the MLB level always take priority and Gonzalez at about 25% of market value for 2 years in a row gives us a very good chance of doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Just once I want to see a columnist admit he stole his idea from the internets. Why would he do that? If he reads these boards (and that's a big if) and gets ideas, more power to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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