Something to consider on the potential trade front.

[Dick Allen]

The Sox should trade Buerhle and AJ right away. That way we can weaken our team AND piss off just about every Sox fan sans a few here at SoxTalk all at the same time. What a great idea.

While I agree trading AJ is just foolish, except for the horrible PR move it would be, trading Buerhle makes a lot of sense if you could get market rate.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Dick Allen

[East Side Z]

The more I think about it, the more I think the Sox should at least see what the market is for Buerhle. He faded down the stretch, and if the Sox do make the playoffs, they way they have been talking brings up 2 questions: A. Would he be ready to pitch in the playoffs effectively? B. If the Sox had a decent playoff run, how would that affect him the following season? If you remember he horrid second half of 2006 was blamed on the playoff run. 4 years older, you would have to believe the effect would be at least the same. You then add that to the talk he will now be a #4 starter, his salary, and the little nugget that he threw out last year about retiring when his contract is up, so he may only pitch 2 more seasons anyway, it seems like a good time to at least listen to offers.

 

As far as payroll, its going to be lower than last year IMO. Last year they dropped it while increasing prices with a 95% renewal rate and 3 extra home dates. Chevy is supposedly exiting the sponsor race, so that will probably make some dent, although how much does Chevy throw at the White Sox anyway? Can it be more than $2 million a year? I heard and the source isn't all that reliable, that the $90-95 million mark estimated above is pretty accurate.

 

I dont totaly disagree with "kicking the tires" on the MB trade.If Kenny doesnt trade him I would make MB the 4th starter.........Peavy,Danks,Floyd,MB,and my choice would be Hudson over Freddy as the 5th starter.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

While I agree trading AJ is just foolish, except for the horrible PR move it would be, trading Buerhle makes a lot of sense if you could get market rate.

You'd have to get a lot more than market value to offset that kind of PR disaster. It would be like the equivalent of what would happen to KFC if Colonel Sanders were to suddenly pop up on the national sex offender registry. I mean the guy is dead so that's not going to happen, but just sayin.

[WCSox]

If Mark is the 4th best pitcher on the team, one has to question why we're paying him $14M/yr. It might make more sense to use that money to lock up Danks.

 

I like how our rotation is set up right now and wouldn't have a problem with keeping MB for the duration of his contract. But if we're still having problems scoring runs next year and are mired in third place in July, I'd be dangling him to see what kind of hitting prospects I could get in return. He'll be 31 next year, he has over 2000 innings on his arm, and we've probably already seen his best years.

 

[WCSox]

You'd have to get a lot more than market value to offset that kind of PR disaster. It would be like the equivalent of what would happen to KFC if Colonel Sanders were to suddenly pop up on the national sex offender registry.

 

I think that you overestimate the PR disaster from dealing Mark. I'm sure that some people wouldn't be happy, but it wouldn't be anything near what we saw when the front office pulled the plug on the team in '94 and '97.

 

[East Side Z]

If Mark is the 4th best pitcher on the team, one has to question why we're paying him $14M/yr. It might make more sense to use that money to lock up Danks.

 

I like how our rotation is set up right now and wouldn't have a problem with keeping MB for the duration of his contract. But if we're still having problems scoring runs next year and are mired in third place in July, I'd be dangling him to see what kind of hitting prospects I could get in return. He'll be 31 next year, he has over 2000 innings on his arm, and we've probably already seen his best years.

 

Being the 4th starter would lessen his "load" a bit and Yes it would be a lot for a 4th starter,but you have to pay him anyway.I think he's lost some "stuff" also,and I belive when Danks learns to keep the change-up DOWN in the zone he will be one of the best pitchers in the league.

[WCSox]

Being the 4th starter would lessen his "load" a bit and Yes it would be a lot for a 4th starter,but you have to pay him anyway.

 

I'm sure that Mark would still throw over 200 innings a year in the #4 spot (as Danks did this year). And you don't have to pay him if you trade him.

 

Again, a lot of this depends on how the rest of the teams plays, and especially how Hudson develops. But if in another year or two, Hudson, Peavy, Floyd, and Danks are all throwing the ball well and the team needs more offense, trading Mark is almost a no-brainer.

 

[East Side Z]

I'm sure that Mark would still throw over 200 innings a year in the #4 spot (as Danks did this year). And you don't have to pay him if you trade him.

 

Again, a lot of this depends on how the rest of the teams plays, and especially how Hudson develops. But if in another year or two, Hudson, Peavy, Floyd, and Danks are all throwing the ball well and the team needs more offense, trading Mark is almost a no-brainer.

 

I have a hard time seeing Mark in a differnt uniform,thats just me.I thought the time to trade him was 2 yaers ago when they were talking contract........He's value was never higher.

[WCSox]

I have a hard time seeing Mark in a differnt uniform,thats just me.I thought the time to trade him was 2 yaers ago when they were talking contract........He's value was never higher.

 

We didn't have Peavy and Hudson back then, and Floyd and Danks hadn't developed into #2-quality pitchers at that point.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I think that you overestimate the PR disaster from dealing Mark. I'm sure that some people wouldn't be happy, but it wouldn't be anything near what we saw when the front office pulled the plug on the team in '94 and '97.

Remember when Kenny was going to trade him how like every Sox fan on the planet was b****ing about the Sox being petty for not giving him more than 3 years? Remember the chants at the Cell and how loud they were? Let's see, the last time our fan base reacted so passionately over a player was...? Fisk maybe? And that was BEFORE he threw a perfect game.

 

No, I think anyone who is saying a Buehrle trade wouldn't be disastrous for this franchise is wrong, and no one will be able to convince me otherwise. In theory, we could trade Buehrle and get back a bunch of players who turn out and then go on to win another World Series, but that's not very likely. What is likely is that the fans would be pissed as hell and ticket sales would drop, the players we'd get back would never become anywhere near as good as Buehrle and at least one large piece would be a straight bust (who would hurt our record while we played him to see if he was a bust or not), and our rotation would take a major hit in 2010, which means we could easily go from a potential pack leader to the same 2008-09 Sox teams all over again.

[East Side Z]

Remember when Kenny was going to trade him how like every Sox fan on the planet was b****ing about the Sox being petty for not giving him more than 3 years? Remember the chants at the Cell and how loud they were? Let's see, the last time our fan base reacted so passionately over a player was...? Fisk maybe? And that was BEFORE he threw a perfect game.

 

No, I think anyone who is saying a Buehrle trade wouldn't be disastrous for this franchise is wrong, and no one will be able to convince me otherwise. In theory, we could trade Buehrle and get back a bunch of players who turn out and then go on to win another World Series, but that's not very likely. What is likely is that the fans would be pissed as hell and ticket sales would drop, the players we'd get back would never become anywhere near as good as Buehrle and at least one large piece would be a straight bust (who would hurt our record while we played him to see if he was a bust or not), and our rotation would take a major hit in 2010, which means we could easily go from a potential pack leader to the same 2008-09 Sox teams all over again.

 

Ahhh an optimist............LOL.

[East Side Z]

We didn't have Peavy and Hudson back then, and Floyd and Danks hadn't developed into #2-quality pitchers at that point.

 

I know but if memory serves werent we supposed get Buckholz as one of the pieces from the Red Sox?

Edited October 14, 2009 by East Side Z

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I have a hard time seeing Mark in a differnt uniform,thats just me.I thought the time to trade him was 2 yaers ago when they were talking contract........He's value was never higher.

No, Mark's value was never LOWER at that point. Mark didn't have a contract beyond that season. He was a rental for a half season that would garner 2 draft picks if he declined arbitration. That's it.

 

You guys who think Mark should be traded need to have your heads examined. Go back and look at the perfect game threads. Every motherf***er here was slobbering all over his nuts, as we all should, and every single sports media outlet was going on about how under-appreciated he is, and how the fans outside of Chicago don't understand how good he is. Now you same motherf***ers want to trade him AS SOON as we acquire a starting staff to complement him. Go burn your Sox hats. You make me sick!

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Ahhh an optimist............LOL.

No, a realist. It's NOT realistic to expect to trade a player like Mark Buehrle and "win" the deal. We will LOSE that trade 99 times out of 100. In return our 2010 team is worse and our fan base is pissed. Yeah, brilliant move.

[East Side Z]

No, Mark's value was never LOWER at that point. Mark didn't have a contract beyond that season. He was a rental for a half season that would garner 2 draft picks if he declined arbitration. That's it.

 

You guys who think Mark should be traded need to have your heads examined. Go back and look at the perfect game threads. Every motherf***er here was slobbering all over his nuts, as we all should, and every single sports media outlet was going on about how under-appreciated he is, and how the fans outside of Chicago don't understand how good he is. Now you same motherf***ers want to trade him AS SOON as we acquire a starting staff to complement him. Go burn your Sox hats. You make me sick!

 

The team that would have aquired Mark 2 years ago,would have singned him to a deal.Its allowed to trade for a guy in his last year and sign him.

[WCSox]

Remember when Kenny was going to trade him how like every Sox fan on the planet was b****ing about the Sox being petty for not giving him more than 3 years? Remember the chants at the Cell and how loud they were? Let's see, the last time our fan base reacted so passionately over a player was...? Fisk maybe? And that was BEFORE he threw a perfect game.

 

No, I think anyone who is saying a Buehrle trade wouldn't be disastrous for this franchise is wrong, and no one will be able to convince me otherwise. In theory, we could trade Buehrle and get back a bunch of players who turn out and then go on to win another World Series, but that's not very likely. What is likely is that the fans would be pissed as hell and ticket sales would drop, the players we'd get back would never become anywhere near as good as Buehrle and at least one large piece would be a straight bust (who would hurt our record while we played him to see if he was a bust or not),

 

It's nice to see that you have an open mind.

 

I'm sure that many Sox fans were pissed that Schueler let Robin Ventura walk after the '98 season. He's about the best comparison that I can think of in terms of fan popularity. The Sox only drew 1,339,000 back in '99, but it wasn't because they let Ventura walk. It was because of the White Flag trade. This is clearly reflected in the massive drop-off in attendance from '97 to '98. The drop-off from '98 to '99 was minimal in comparison...

 

1997 - 1,865,000

1998 - 1,391,000

1999 - 1,339,000

2000 - 1,948,000

 

Magically, the fans returned in 2000, with Herbert Perry playing 3B. And this highlights my point: Sox fans like their players, but they like winning a lot more. The PR fallout from dealing Mark would be short-lived and completely wiped out by another trip to the playoffs.

 

Also, keep in mind that we're a full four years removed from the 2005 WS and that Mark is no longer the unquestioned ace of the staff. In fact, he may only be the 4th best pitcher on the staff next spring. If re-signing Mark didn't net the Sox a single playoff series win, why would fans react in the same way to dealing him, especially with Peavy, Floyd, and Danks anchoring the rotation?

 

and our rotation would take a major hit in 2010, which means we could easily go from a potential pack leader to the same 2008-09 Sox teams all over again.

 

I'm not suggesting that the Sox deal Mark this winter. I'm suggesting that they consider it if they're out of contention by the deadline next year, when "a major hit to the rotation" will be a moot point.

 

You guys who think Mark should be traded need to have your heads examined. Go back and look at the perfect game threads. Every motherf***er here was slobbering all over his nuts, as we all should, and every single sports media outlet was going on about how under-appreciated he is, and how the fans outside of Chicago don't understand how good he is.

 

Yeah, and then Mark pitched like crap in August and helped knock the Sox out of contention. Or does that not count, because pitching a perfect game is more important than playing in October?

 

Now you same motherf***ers want to trade him AS SOON as we acquire a starting staff to complement him. Go burn your Sox hats. You make me sick!

 

It's not personal, it's business. If we have a lesser-than-before Mark taking up $14M in salary budget on a team that can't hit, is keeping that Perfect Game-winner around more important than strengthening the team?

 

Edited October 14, 2009 by WCSox

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

The team that would have aquired Mark 2 years ago,would have singned him to a deal.Its allowed to trade for a guy in his last year and sign him.

Right. So Mark would have just decided against testing the free agent market and potentially forfeited millions because of some trade. Mark only made concessions because he wanted to stay HERE. He wouldn't have signed some longterm deal with any team outside of possibly St. Louis, and even that is only guessing because Mark himself has said that he doesn't know if he would be able to pitch as effectively while in his "backyard" so to speak.

[East Side Z]

Right. So Mark would have just decided against testing the free agent market and potentially forfeited millions because of some trade. Mark only made concessions because he wanted to stay HERE. He wouldn't have signed some longterm deal with any team outside of possibly St. Louis, and even that is only guessing because Mark himself has said that he doesn't know if he would be able to pitch as effectively while in his "backyard" so to speak.

 

If the Red Sox did trade for him they would have PAYED him to the point of where he couldnt turn it down.I also never said that he should be traded NOW.We have a one of the best starting 4 in baseball,lets see what they can do.

[The Ginger Kid]

economic downturn = buyers market.

 

I say go for it, Jerry. Spend it and they will come.

[Socal Cid]

Looking at past comparables (Bonderman '05 and Harang '05) it looks as if Danks arbitration number should be somewhere between $2m and 2.3m next year.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

It's nice to see that you have an open mind.

 

I'm sure that many Sox fans were pissed that Schueler let Robin Ventura walk after the '98 season. He's about the best comparison that I can think of in terms of fan popularity. The Sox only drew 1,339,000 back in '99, but it wasn't because they let Ventura walk. It was because of the White Flag trade. This is clearly reflected in the massive drop-off in attendance from '97 to '98. The drop-off from '98 to '99 was minimal in comparison...

 

1997 - 1,865,000

1998 - 1,391,000

1999 - 1,339,000

2000 - 1,948,000

 

Magically, the fans returned in 2000, with Herbert Perry playing 3B. And this highlights my point: Sox fans like their players, but they like winning a lot more. The PR fallout from dealing Mark would be short-lived and completely wiped out by another trip to the playoffs.

 

 

 

I'm not suggesting that the Sox deal Mark this winter. I'm suggesting that they consider it if they're out of contention by the deadline next year, when "a major hit to the rotation" will be a moot point.

Robin Ventura was probably my favorite player during those years, and as much as I love Robin, there is no f***ing way I'd compare him to Buehrle. Buehrle threw 2 no-hitters including a perfecto, started an All-Star game for us, pitched a CG in the ALCS for us, saved a World Series game for us, even hit a home run for us against the Brewers this year, among other accomplishments like ranking in wins and ERA (which underscore perfectly how under-appreciated he is, again) and being the only lefty in baseball right now that I can think of that has a shot at 300 wins. And off the field he's loved even more.

 

Ha, so we're going to deal Mark and get back to the play-offs? HOW? We will LOSE THAT TRADE. We will NOT get back Mark's value. What are we going to do after that? Spread some money around? WHERE? Who is it that the Sox could reasonably acquire with Mark's money that will make this team better than it will be with Mark? The ideas on this board are f***ing pathetic, like we'd deal Mark and use the money to sign injury-prone Nick Johnson and give out another bad contract to a reliever or something, that's probably the solution. Or take on Milton Bradley or Juan Pierre with that money. Brilliant! Or maybe we'll sign or trade for a Borass client (yeah right, like that will ever happen). Let me know why we can afford to weaken our staff. Because the last thing you're supposed to do when you have a strong starting staff is weaken it.

 

As for dealing Mark if we're out of it in July, WHY would we be out of it in July? This division is going to suck next year just like it has the last two. We were like 8 games below .500 or something in June and we still were in it late despite playing bad baseball. The only way this team is out of the race by July 2010 is if the whole f***ing plane crashes. And even then, the 2010 Charlotte Knights could still win some ballgames against the likes of the Indians and Royals.

 

I can't believe I have to defend how important it is to keep Buerhle. And anyone who feels the need to respond to this post with an argument in favor of dealing Mark or shopping Mark shouldn't even bother. Just click the X in the browser window because you're not a Sox fan. You're an undercover Cardinals shill once again trying to stir up s***.

[WCSox]

Robin Ventura was probably my favorite player during those years, and as much as I love Robin, there is no f***ing way I'd compare him to Buehrle. Buehrle threw 2 no-hitters including a perfecto, started an All-Star game for us, pitched a CG in the ALCS for us, saved a World Series game for us, even hit a home run for us against the Brewers this year, among other accomplishments like ranking in wins and ERA (which underscore perfectly how under-appreciated he is, again) and being the only lefty in baseball right now that I can think of that has a shot at 300 wins. And off the field he's loved even more.

 

Ha, so we're going to deal Mark and get back to the play-offs? HOW? We will LOSE THAT TRADE. We will NOT get back Mark's value. What are we going to do after that? Spread some money around? WHERE? Who is it that the Sox could reasonably acquire with Mark's money that will make this team better than it will be with Mark? The ideas on this board are f***ing pathetic, like we'd deal Mark and use the money to sign injury-prone Nick Johnson and give out another bad contract to a reliever or something, that's probably the solution. Or take on Milton Bradley or Juan Pierre with that money. Brilliant! Or maybe we'll sign or trade for a Borass client (yeah right, like that will ever happen). Let me know why we can afford to weaken our staff. Because the last thing you're supposed to do when you have a strong starting staff is weaken it.

 

As for dealing Mark if we're out of it in July, WHY would we be out of it in July? This division is going to suck next year just like it has the last two. We were like 8 games below .500 or something in June and we still were in it late despite playing bad baseball. The only way this team is out of the race by July 2010 is if the whole f***ing plane crashes. And even then, the 2010 Charlotte Knights could still win some ballgames against the likes of the Indians and Royals.

 

I can't believe I have to defend how important it is to keep Buerhle. And anyone who feels the need to respond to this post with an argument in favor of dealing Mark or shopping Mark shouldn't even bother. Just click the X in the browser window because you're not a Sox fan. You're an undercover Cardinals shill once again trying to stir up s***.

 

Wow, sounds like somebody has a massive man-crush on Mark. Sorry to break this to you, but he's married.

 

I like Mark, but I'm a Sox fan first and foremost. Players come and go, but the organization is more important to me than anything else. If dealing Mark can help free up salary for a more balanced team that has a better shot of getting this team back to the WS, I'm all for it.

 

Edited October 14, 2009 by WCSox

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

If the Red Sox did trade for him they would have PAYED him to the point of where he couldnt turn it down.I also never said that he should be traded NOW.We have a one of the best starting 4 in baseball,lets see what they can do.

If they wanted Mark that bad then they would have given up something for him when Kenny was willing to make a deal. And again, WHY would Mark take a supposed Red Sox offer? They wouldn't have floored him with something like $19M+ per. That wouldn't have happened. They probably would have offer the same as the Sox over 5 years, and Buehrle would have taken that offer and shopped it around.

 

Agree with the bolded part, but why are you arguing for trading/shopping Mark AT ALL if you're not in favor of it NOW? Doesn't make sense. It's like, I could come up with an argument about why we should trade Gordon Beckham if we're out of the race in July 2014. But why?

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Wow, sounds like somebody has a massive man-crush on Mark. Sorry to break this to you, but he's married.

 

I like Mark, but I'm a Sox fan first and foremost. Players come and go, but the organization is more important to me than anything else. If dealing Mark can help free up salary for a more balanced team that has a better shot of getting this team back to the WS, I'm all for it.

I said click the X. I'm sure there's a "Bring back Holliday???" thread on CardinalsTalk.com waiting for you.

[WCSox]

I said click the X. I'm sure there's a "Bring back Holliday???" thread on CardinalsTalk.com waiting for you.

This post has been edited by the Soxtalk staff to remove objectionable material. Soxtalk encourages a free discussion between its members, but does not allow personal attacks, threats, graphic sexual material, nudity, or any other materials judged offensive by the Administrators and Moderators. Thank you.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Balta1701