Something to consider on the potential trade front.

[caulfield12]

Yes, quite the conundrum.

 

Buehrle means more to the franchise than any player since Thomas/Ventura/Fisk and certainly more than Konerko.

 

On the other hand, you simply can't pay a #4 guy $14 million...that's where KW got into trouble, sinking so much money into Vazquez, Garland and Contreras the last 2-3 seasons, which impacted our ability to improve the ballclub sufficiently in other areas.

 

As some have argued, winning trumps all arguments, that almost NOBODY cared that Valentin/Lee/Ordonez weren't part of the 2005 championship and Frank Thomas was really kind of an afterthought as well.

 

The risk, as KHP...is that trading Buehrle not only backfires on the talent received end (and a pitcher like Buehrle in his 30's with that contract and wear and tear can't be considered a huge bargain exactly) but also the public relations/marketing front, it will cost the franchise immensely in terms of good will.

 

Also, as noted, Danks, Floyd and Peavy (not to mention Garcia and Hudson) all have question marks surrouding them to different degrees...almost nothing is a certainty, even though arguments have been made we have somewhere between the #1 and #7-8 starting rotation in all of MLB. Buehrle has been the most consistent performer, as close to a "given" as you get in today's game, even though not consistent on a month by month basis.

 

I'm of the opinion that no team will give up in return what losing him would cost the franchise...but I'm not KW, either. Only he and JR can make those judgements.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Yes, quite the conundrum.

 

Buehrle means more to the franchise than any player since Thomas/Ventura/Fisk and certainly more than Konerko.

 

On the other hand, you simply can't pay a #4 guy $14 million...that's where KW got into trouble, sinking so much money into Vazquez, Garland and Contreras the last 2-3 seasons, which impacted our ability to improve the ballclub sufficiently in other areas.

 

As some have argued, winning trumps all arguments, that almost NOBODY cared that Valentin/Lee/Ordonez weren't part of the 2005 championship and Frank Thomas was really kind of an afterthought as well.

 

The risk, as KHP...is that trading Buehrle not only backfires on the talent received end (and a pitcher like Buehrle in his 30's with that contract and wear and tear can't be considered a huge bargain exactly) but also the public relations/marketing front, it will cost the franchise immensely in terms of good will.

 

Also, as noted, Danks, Floyd and Peavy (not to mention Garcia and Hudson) all have question marks surrouding them to different degrees...almost nothing is a certainty, even though arguments have been made we have somewhere between the #1 and #7-8 starting rotation in all of MLB. Buehrle has been the most consistent performer, as close to a "given" as you get in today's game, even though not consistent on a month by month basis.

 

I'm of the opinion that no team will give up in return what losing him would cost the franchise...but I'm not KW, either. Only he and JR can make those judgements.

This is a nice take.

 

The only thing I disagree with is the notion that teams can't pay #4 starters $14M. Buehrle is a #3 who might end up pitching out of the #4 spot, which isn't a bad thing it all because it signals a nasty top-3. Depending on a given team's payroll situation, you can definitely pay that to a #3. Look around the league and you find lots of guys that are #3's or #4's who are paid very well. Buehrle is getting just a shade more than Ryan Dempster and less than Derek Lowe for example, and he's younger and better and a safer bet than either of those guys. Oliver Perez got 3/$36M from the Mets last year even during such a s***ty economic climate for free agents in baseball.

 

The problem teams run into is when they give assloads of money to players who aren't good at all or who are easily replaceable. Buehrle is very good and is definitely *not* easily replaceable.

 

[Balta1701]

Another way to look at it, paying $14 million to have a really good #3-#4 starter who does a number of things for you, like eat up 200+ innings and give you an ERA of 4ish or under and who helps make everyone else on your staff better is yes, a luxury. But it's a luxury you might be able to afford if you can meet a couple other criteria:

 

1. You have some young talent in your lineup and coming up through your minor leagues who are quality, and therefore are filling some of your positions cheaply for several years.

 

2. You have some young talent in your rotation, such that your rotation even with the expensive #4 starter isn't prohibitively expensive.

 

3. You're not holding an excess of ridiculously bad contracts that are preventing you from filling the other holes that show up.

 

If we're not wasting money elsewhere and we're getting good success out of the talent we're developing in the minors (see; Gordon Beckham) then spending $14 mil a year on a #4 starter isn't going to cripple us, and in fact could serve to give us a ridiculously good starting rotation. Strangely, Buehrle's contract is probably affordable and ok if Rios actually hits like he's supposed to next year. If he busts, then wasting $10 mil a year on that CF slot without even filling it effectively is going to really hurt our ability to spend good money on a really good starting rotation.

[longshot7]

This is a nice take.

 

The only thing I disagree with is the notion that teams can't pay #4 starters $14M. Buehrle is a #3 who might end up pitching out of the #4 spot, which isn't a bad thing it all because it signals a nasty top-3.

 

To be realistic though, Buehrle is a #2 who will probably end up pitching out of the #1 spot. He's earned it, and what does it really matter?

 

Neither Danks or Floyd have proved they have the consistency to supplant Buehrle from that spot, and while his consistency wasn't always there this past year either, he's the face of the franchise, has a WS ring and has two no-hitters in his resume. For my money, he still starts Opening Day. Peavy starts day 2.

Edited October 15, 2009 by longshot7

[League]

Trading Mark Buehrle could and probably would be a critical mistake for next season. I certainly don't want to deal with another 2007/2009 again next year, especially when our starting pitching makes us such a threat in the playoffs.

 

Sure, Mark makes a lot of money. 14M isn't anything to laugh at and could probably net Nick Johnson + 2 relievers and have change left over, but do you really think some team is going to eat all of MB's contract AND give us fair value for him?

 

Trading a legit pitcher like Buehrle is a mistake, look at what has happened to the Indians over the past two years, they traded both CC and Lee and it's looking like both trades are going to end up biting them. Even signing one of those guys long term and letting the other walk nets them an Ace for years and two draft picks. Instead they have LaPorta, who looks like he's going to be the only success from either trade, and a bunch of injured/underperforming prospects from the Phillies' farm.

 

I can understand the logic behind looking around for a trade. If the Nationals say "Hey, we'll give you Willingham and the Zimmermans while paying all of MB's salary", then Kenny had better pull the f***ing trigger, but how likely is something like that to really happen?

 

Mark Buehrle's most value is to us. We have a pitcher on our staff by the name of John Danks who is strikingly similar to MB, but he has stronger stuff. Let Burls give Danks advice and mentor him so he can pass the torch down in two years. I'll gladly take his mid-3 ERA and 200+ innings over the next two seasons out of the #4 slot while we mow down our mediocre division.

 

If we really need to trade a pitcher, look at Daniel Hudson. His value will probably never be higher than it is right now, and we could probably make a killing off of him due to his low cost which would enable us to trade him to a smaller market team. I can live with relying on Freddy Garcia in the #5 spot, and some one like Hudson could be the centerpiece of a trade for a starting outfielder along the lines of a B.J. Upton or Hunter Pence.

Edited October 15, 2009 by League

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Caulfield: :cheers

 

Balta: :cheers

 

Longshot: :cheers

 

League: :cheers

 

I'm glad there are still Mark Buehrle fans on this site. I was getting worried for a moment there.

[WCSox]

If we really need to trade a pitcher, look at Daniel Hudson. His value will probably never be higher than it is right now, and we could probably make a killing off of him due to his low cost which would enable us to trade him to a smaller market team. I can live with relying on Freddy Garcia in the #5 spot, and some one like Hudson could be the centerpiece of a trade for a starting outfielder along the lines of a B.J. Upton or Hunter Pence.

 

I completely disagree with this. Young, cheap, high-ceiling starting pitchers under team control for several years are the most valuable asset in MLB. If Hudson throws 60 innings in the bigs next year and does reasonably well, his value will skyrocket because he already has the highly-successful minor league numbers and favorable scouting reports on his side. Note that Kenny didn't even entertain the idea of including Hudson in the Peavy deal. Also, keep in mind that the Sox no longer have cheap back-of-the-rotation options in Richard and Poreda. With their starting rotation becoming VERY expensive, the Sox need somebody like Hudson for long-term flexibility.

 

If I'm Kenny, it would literally take somebody like Zimmerman or Ethier to get me to part ways with Hudson. Given Upton's recent shoulder surgery, really bad 2009 season, and his well-chronicled knuckle-headness, I don't trade for him at this point. If the Rays are looking to deal a relatively inexpensive player with Upton's skills when he's under control for three more years, I immediately suspect that something's wrong with him (either physically or mentally).

 

[League]

If I'm Kenny, it would literally take somebody like Zimmerman or Ethier to get me to part ways with Hudson. Given Upton's recent shoulder surgery, really bad 2009 season, and his well-chronicled knuckle-headness, I don't trade for him at this point. If the Rays are looking to deal a relatively inexpensive player with Upton's skills when he's under control for three more years, I immediately suspect that something's wrong with him (either physically or mentally).

 

The Rays are supposedly looking to clear room in their outfield for Desmond Jennings, if they can get value like Hudson for him, I'm sure they'd deal him.

 

I'm not advocating trading Hudson, but I am saying that I'd much rather move him before a proven, high-quality commodity like Buehrle or Floyd.

Edited October 15, 2009 by League

[WCSox]

The Rays are supposedly looking to clear room in their outfield for Desmond Jennings, if they can get value like Hudson for him, I'm sure they'd deal him.

 

Given that Upton's value took a hit this year and is likely to go back up when he produces next year, it would arguably make more sense to deal Crawford, who is only under contract for one more year and is a lot more expensive than Upton.

 

I'm not advocating trading Hudson, but I am saying that I'd much rather move him before a proven, high-quality commodity like Buehrle of Floyd.

 

Right now, I agree. A year from now... who knows.

Edited October 15, 2009 by WCSox

[League]

Given that Upton's value took a hit this year and is likely to go back up when he produces next year, it would arguably make more sense to deal Crawford, who is only under contract for one more year and is a lot more expensive than Upton.

 

That could be true, but Crawford has proven to be the more consistent player and I'm sure the Rays still see themselves as a contender in 2010. Crawford projects to be a better offensive player next season and has already signed one contract to stay in Tampa Bay, whereas Upton is going to start getting more expensive soon as well.

 

I don't want to look like I'm saying we should go trade Hudson for Upton or some other crazy trade idea, I just wanted to use him as an example of what I believe Hudson could be worth right now.

[WCSox]

That could be true, but Crawford has proven to be the more consistent player and I'm sure the Rays still see themselves as a contender in 2010. Crawford projects to be a better offensive player next season and has already signed one contract to stay in Tampa Bay, whereas Upton is going to start getting more expensive soon as well.

 

I don't want to look like I'm saying we should go trade Hudson for Upton or some other crazy trade idea, I just wanted to use him as an example of what I believe Hudson could be worth right now.

 

If TB wants to go for it next year (and why wouldn't they?), it's possible that they hold on to both. They'll get draft picks when Crawford leaves as a FA.

 

Understood about Hudson. Not trying to put words in your mouth or anything.

 

[Kalapse]

If TB wants to go for it next year (and why wouldn't they?), it's possible that they hold on to both. They'll get draft picks when Crawford leaves as a FA.

 

Understood about Hudson. Not trying to put words in your mouth or anything.

The only problem is; when you're a team like the Rays you have to get top value for your young talent when they leave your organization, they can trade an outfielder right now and get good near major league ready talent in return and move Jennings (who they fully believe is ready to produce at the major league level) into the new opening. Carl Crawford came in as a Type B player this season thanks to his very poor 2008 and the fact that even when he has a big year by his standards it's still not going to rank up there with the elites at 1B/OF/DH so if he disappoints in 2010 they're looking at 1 sandwich pick as compensation for losing the face of their franchise and a player that they could have dealt a year early for high value. Whatever they'd receive in return for Upton or Crawford would be substantially more valuable than a roll of the dice in the draft.

[ThunderBolt]

Caulfield: :cheers

 

Balta: :cheers

 

Longshot: :cheers

 

League: :cheers

I'm somewhat dissapointed that M-Cab and Tony Pena weren't invited to this party.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I'm somewhat dissapointed that M-Cab and Tony Pena weren't invited to this party.

Cabrera was on his way, but Freddy was driving and, stoned off his ass, pulled into a Taco Bell drive-thru from which they never returned.

 

Tony Pena was there but you may have missed him as the reservations were under the name Adriano Rosario.

[southsider2k5]

Mark Buehrle isn't going to go anywhere unless the Sox bomb next year. After coming in 3rd last year and a bad economy, you don't need to give people more reasons to cancel season tickets than they already have.

[WCSox]

Mark Buehrle isn't going to go anywhere unless the Sox bomb next year.

 

That's what I've been saying all along. And even in a worst-case scenario, moving him is far from a certainty.

 

[iamshack]

So since it appears the consensus here is that you trade Hudson before Buerhle, and he has more trade value anyways, who are some players we should be targeting to acquire for him?

 

Ideas?

[WCSox]

So since it appears the consensus here is that you trade Hudson before Buerhle, and he has more trade value anyways, who are some players we should be targeting to acquire for him?

 

Ideas?

 

IF I'm looking to deal Hudson, I'm on the phone with the Nats discussing Zimmerman. He still has 2-3 years left under team control, no?

 

[League]

IF I'm looking to deal Hudson, I'm on the phone with the Nats discussing Zimmerman. He still has 2-3 years left under team control, no?

The Nats just signed him to a 5 year deal or something last offseason, I highly doubt he's going anywhere.

 

He is the type of player we need to find though, if we could get an impact bat at 3rd and move Becks to second, we'd have one absolutely insane offensive infield.

[WCSox]

The Nats just signed him to a 5 year deal or something last offseason, I highly doubt he's going anywhere.

 

 

My mistake.

 

[iamshack]

The Nats just signed him to a 5 year deal or something last offseason, I highly doubt he's going anywhere.

 

He is the type of player we need to find though, if we could get an impact bat at 3rd and move Becks to second, we'd have one absolutely insane offensive infield.

 

Zimmerman is the face of their franchise, and they'd have the same sort of PR issue on their hands as we would have if we dealt Mark.

 

Additionally, I tend to think, as others have mentioned, that our search for a 3b is complete and that Beckham will be staying there for the forseeable future.

 

My guess is we'd be looking at 2b and OF, as well as pen arms.

[Kalapse]

IF I'm looking to deal Hudson, I'm on the phone with the Nats discussing Zimmerman. He still has 2-3 years left under team control, no?

4 years, $41.175M remaining on the deal he signing in April. I know people like to believe that all players on awful teams are fair game but I don't think the Nationals will be open to trading their best player. They should also be able to do better than Dan Hudson as the center piece of the deal if they did decide to move him. I also don't think the Sox are interested in acquiring a 3B, Beckham is your future at the position.

[WCSox]

Additionally, I tend to think, as others have mentioned, that our search for a 3b is complete and that Beckham will be staying there for the forseeable future.

 

I have no problem leaving Beckham at 3B. But in the unlikely event that a high-impact player like Zimmerman or David Wright became available through a trade, I'd definitely take advantage of Beckham's flexibility.

 

Fortunately for the Sox, the type of hitter they need right now usually plays 1B, RF, LF, or DH. So it probably won't matter.

 

[iamshack]

I have no problem leaving Beckham at 3B. But in the unlikely event that a high-impact player like Zimmerman or David Wright became available through a trade, I'd definitely take advantage of Beckham's flexibility.

 

Fortunately for the Sox, the type of hitter they need right now usually plays 1B, RF, LF, or DH. So it probably won't matter.

 

This is true. If the Mets want to deal David Wright though, I have a feeling Beckham would be one of the players they require coming their way...

[GreatScott82]

Caulfield: :cheers

 

Balta: :cheers

 

Longshot: :cheers

 

League: :cheers

 

I'm glad there are still Mark Buehrle fans on this site. I was getting worried for a moment there.

The day Buerhle is dealt is the day i will truly be heartbroken as a Sox fan. He is seriously the only guy i could say that about in my 20+ years of being a fan.

Edited October 15, 2009 by GreatScott82