Something to consider on the potential trade front.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

It was but a small example of my point. The larger focus was "why would Texas trade away their star? What is the point?" and then "I wouldnt trade X player unless, and only if, the team became better".

 

Many things JP did got him fired, I totally agree. This thinking, in my opinion, was part of it.

Oh ok, that makes sense. I was just talking about the Buehrle point, but I agree, Hamilton won't be traded because no deal will come along that will make them better. I see what you mean about Ricciardi taking that same stance regarding a Halladay deal, and maybe he did. Whatever his reasons were for not trading Halladay at the deadline, they were dumb.

[Dick Allen]

What he is saying is smart baseball management if you're a team like the Sox. Unlike the Blue Jays, the Sox do not NEED to dump a good player's salary in order to pay a bad player to suck.

 

What got JP Ricciardi fired was giving out massive contracts to several players, with Vernon Wells and BJ Ryan being the most devastating ones. Ricciardi didn't get fired because he didn't trade Halladay. The Halladay situation only came up because the Blue Jays spent a ton of money on a team that was performing so poorly dollar-for-dollar that they were forced to cut payroll because the fans weren't showing up.

 

The Blue Jays because of their commitments to bad players do *not* have a choice to try to compete with the Red Sox and Yankees. If they did then they would target the kind of players the poster was talking about, proven talent that makes the team better. The Jays are forced to target prospects simply because they will not be able to compete again until a lot of these horrible deals are off their books.

 

I agree though that Ricciardi SHOULD have traded Halladay, but trade or not trade, that franchise was already screwed.

They have a choice to try to compete. The only reason they even considered trading Halladay is because Roy basically stated he was going to walk when his contract was up. They were going nowhere in 2009 and 2010 is probably a longshot. Put things into perspective here. The Blue Jays were devasted by injury. I think most of their starting rotation was out. Attendance was weak. They dumped a lot of salary in Rios and Rolen, but have some nice talent. Wells is a problem, but when he signed, I don't think it raised too many eyebrows. JP's problem was that he was in the AL East. Its going to be hard for any team to compete year in and year out with Boston and NY and now TB. The Blue Jays still have won more games the past 4 seasons than the White Sox. I think if Toronto was in the Central, JP would have been given an extension rather than a pink slip.

[Kyyle23]

They have a choice to try to compete. The only reason they even considered trading Halladay is because Roy basically stated he was going to walk when his contract was up. They were going nowhere in 2009 and 2010 is probably a longshot. Put things into perspective here. The Blue Jays were devasted by injury. I think most of their starting rotation was out. Attendance was weak. They dumped a lot of salary in Rios and Rolen, but have some nice talent. Wells is a problem, but when he signed, I don't think it raised too many eyebrows. JP's problem was that he was in the AL East. Its going to be hard for any team to compete year in and year out with Boston and NY and now TB. The Blue Jays still have won more games the past 4 seasons than the White Sox. I think if Toronto was in the Central, JP would have been given an extension rather than a pink slip.

 

 

1 more game, to be exact.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

They have a choice to try to compete. The only reason they even considered trading Halladay is because Roy basically stated he was going to walk when his contract was up. They were going nowhere in 2009 and 2010 is probably a longshot. Put things into perspective here. The Blue Jays were devasted by injury. I think most of their starting rotation was out. Attendance was weak. They dumped a lot of salary in Rios and Rolen, but have some nice talent. Wells is a problem, but when he signed, I don't think it raised too many eyebrows. JP's problem was that he was in the AL East. Its going to be hard for any team to compete year in and year out with Boston and NY and now TB. The Blue Jays still have won more games the past 4 seasons than the White Sox. I think if Toronto was in the Central, JP would have been given an extension rather than a pink slip.

I agree with some of this.

 

The Blue Jays dealt with lots of injuries, but even with everyone healthy, I highly doubt they could have competed in that division. The Yankees and Red Sox are tough enough to beat as it is, but adding the Rays to the equation makes it almost impossible. They would have had to really beat up on teams outside of their division to have a chance, and for that to happen, they'd need great seasons out of Rios and Wells at least.

 

Yes they do have a choice as far as whether to try to compete or not, but it's not a very hard one to make. It's pretty clear what road the Jays need to take.

 

Wells' deal did raise a lot of eyebrows at the time because it was enormous and very uncharacteristic of non-Yankee teams. They gave him basically what amounted to the maximum amount of money the Yankees could have/would have offered. IIRC they went off the Beltran deal and tried to pay him like he was better than Beltran. Just a bad deal, although it didn't look anywhere near as bad as it does now because Wells at least was productive then.

 

The AL Central thing works both ways. If the Jays had the same exact teams that they've had in recent years then they would have taken our division at least a couple of times. But OTOH, Toronto isn't exactly an enormous baseball market either, and when you take away all those divisional series between the Red Sox and Yankees, can they still afford their current payroll? My guess is not. Put the Sox in the AL East with the Jays coming to the AL Central and our payroll definitely goes up while theirs goes down.

 

IMO, aside from maybe Cashman and Sabean of the Zito deal, there isn't another GM in baseball whose job would be safe after that Wells contract. Right or wrong, that contract is enough make anyone look incompetent.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[Dick Allen]

I agree with some of this.

 

The Blue Jays dealt with lots of injuries, but even with everyone healthy, I highly doubt they could have competed in that division. The Yankees and Red Sox are tough enough to beat as it is, but adding the Rays to the equation makes it almost impossible. They would have had to really beat up on teams outside of their division to have a chance, and for that to happen, they'd need great seasons out of Rios and Wells at least.

 

Yes they do have a choice as far as whether to try to compete or not, but it's not a very hard one to make. It's pretty clear what road the Jays need to take.

 

Wells' deal did raise a lot of eyebrows at the time because it was enormous and very uncharacteristic of non-Yankee teams. They gave him basically what amounted to the maximum amount of money the Yankees could have/would have offered. IIRC they went off the Beltran deal and tried to pay him like he was better than Beltran. Just a bad deal, although it didn't look anywhere near as bad as it does now because Wells at least was productive then.

 

The AL Central thing works both ways. If the Jays had the same exact teams that they've had in recent years then they would have taken our division at least a couple of times. But OTOH, Toronto isn't exactly an enormous baseball market either, and when you take away all those divisional series between the Red Sox and Yankees, can they still afford their current payroll? My guess is not. Put the Sox in the AL East with the Jays coming to the AL Central and our payroll definitely goes up while theirs goes down.

 

IMO, aside from maybe Cashman and Sabean of the Zito deal, there isn't another GM in baseball whose job would be safe after that Wells contract. Right or wrong, that contract is enough make anyone look incompetent.

 

When he signed the contract he was 28 and an All Star CF, the face of the franchise. His deal was actually about $10 million cheaper when you take into consideration posting fees than Dice-K and cheaper than Soriano's deal with the Cubs. Its easy to look back now and say it was a horrible contract, because it turned out to be so, but at the time, although maybe a little pricey, it really wasn't too far out of line.

 

If you look at the thread when he signed the contract, most thought he had to sign it, but I didn't see too many posts saying it was a crazy deal. Some interesting posts though as Olney speculated they would trade Rios with Wells signed. Most were in facor, even as a leadoff hitter. Rotoworld thought a Milledge/Heilmann offer from the Mets might entice Toronto. It was only 3 years ago. That's a long time in baseball.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

The Wells deal wouldn't have been so surprising had the Yankees done it, but the Jays really got a lot of attention doing it because they'll never have a $200M payroll.

 

I thought the deal was crazy at the time. And didn't like every baseball fan on the planet call Soriano's deal atrocious the minute the terms were announced? The Matsuzaka posting was outrageous as well and had people calling the posting system a complete joke that should be outlawed. But still, this was the Red Sox and Cubs making those crazy signings. The Blue Jays didn't put themselves in position to compete with the Yankees and Red Sox by making huge signings, they did it by running a fiscally smart franchise. The Wells deal was a potential disaster for the club the moment it was inked.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

If you look at the thread when he signed the contract, most thought he had to sign it, but I didn't see too many posts saying it was a crazy deal. Some interesting posts though as Olney speculated they would trade Rios with Wells signed. Most were in facor, even as a leadoff hitter. Rotoworld thought a Milledge/Heilmann offer from the Mets might entice Toronto. It was only 3 years ago. That's a long time in baseball.

I don't know what was said here. I was on another forum at the time and I'm sure I talked about how scary it looked. I know I ripped the Soriano deal to shreds because I was pissed about the implications it would have had on the Sox in free agency.

 

Edit: I remember the Milledge and Heilman stuff though. Those guys were rumored to have been traded to every team for every player in baseball. I think we were supposed to get them for Freddy at one point.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[qwerty]

Kenny hates prospects is right on. Wells has and never will be worthy of his contract. On 12/06 wells received a six year contract of 0.5, 1.5, 12.5, 23, 21, 21, and an additional 21 million. 25.5 million dollar signing bonus on top of a full no-trade clause? That was in no way a good deal then, and is working out just like many people thought it would. I don't care what the market was at the time, many people were still left shaking their heads.

 

There is always the possibility wells pities the blue jays and opts out after 2011 because he feels downright awful for stealing as much money from the blue jays as he has... right? Right?

[Dick Allen]

Kenny hates prospects is right on. Wells has and never will be worthy of his contract. On 12/06 wells received a six year contract of 0.5, 1.5, 12.5, 23, 21, 21, and an additional 21 million. 25.5 million dollar signing bonus on top of a full no-trade clause? That was in no way a good deal then, and is working out just like many people thought it would. I don't care what the market was at the time, many people were still left shaking their heads.

 

There is always the possibility wells pities the blue jays and opts out after 2011 because he feels downright awful for stealing as much money from the blue jays as he has... right? Right?

I never saw one item stating Wells would fall off as fast and hard as he has. I'm thinking he may have been aided putting up the numbers he put up to get the contract. GG CF who hit over .300 with 32 homers and 17 steals are hard to come by. He had a similar year in 2003 and put up Torii Hunter with the Twins-type numbers in between. They obviously overpaid,and probably knew they overpaid at the time, but obviously not by the amount it is turning out to be.

[chisoxfan09]

OK, here is my 2 cents and I have not posted in a while. What about offering the Padres a package of cheap talent headed by Hudson/Viciedo and their choice of maybe 3 other AA/AAA prospects to table a discussion for AGon? I know this is not reality but just say they are so hard up to dump his salary and completely retool the franchise. I really don´t want to touch our startin 4 as we have given them 4 good pitchers already for Peavy. Which brings me to my last point. Could Peavy and Linebrink sell Chicago to Agon? Awright flame away!!!!! He would definitely solve our lefty power bat with high OBP.

[nickofypres]

We're probably going to end up needing Viciedo in the long run. But our 3-4-5 of the future is probably Quentin, Flowers and Viciedo or something of that combination.

[Jordan4life_2007]

OK, here is my 2 cents and I have not posted in a while. What about offering the Padres a package of cheap talent headed by Hudson/Viciedo and their choice of maybe 3 other AA/AAA prospects to table a discussion for AGon? I know this is not reality but just say they are so hard up to dump his salary and completely retool the franchise. I really don´t want to touch our startin 4 as we have given them 4 good pitchers already for Peavy. Which brings me to my last point. Could Peavy and Linebrink sell Chicago to Agon? Awright flame away!!!!! He would definitely solve our lefty power bat with high OBP.

 

Dump his contract? For cheap talent? HE IS CHEAP TALENT! Cheap PROVEN talent at that. He's arguably the best bargain (production against salary) in all of baseball. The Padres would have to be thoroughly overwhelmed to even consider trading him.

[knightni]

I wouldn't give up big prospects for a 1st baseman.

 

First base and DH are the easiest positions to replace.

[son of a rude]

I wouldn't give up big prospects for a 1st baseman.

 

First base and DH are the easiest positions to replace.

You wouldn't give up big prospects for Pujols?

[knightni]

You wouldn't give up big prospects for Pujols?

There's a huge difference between Pujols and any other 1B in the majors.

[kitekrazy]

I wouldn't give up big prospects for a 1st baseman.

 

First base and DH are the easiest positions to replace.

 

Especially when it comes to the Sox organization.

 

[bighurt574]

OK, here is my 2 cents and I have not posted in a while. What about offering the Padres a package of cheap talent headed by Hudson/Viciedo and their choice of maybe 3 other AA/AAA prospects to table a discussion for AGon? I know this is not reality but just say they are so hard up to dump his salary and completely retool the franchise. I really don´t want to touch our startin 4 as we have given them 4 good pitchers already for Peavy. Which brings me to my last point. Could Peavy and Linebrink sell Chicago to Agon? Awright flame away!!!!! He would definitely solve our lefty power bat with high OBP.

 

(1) AGon doesn't have a big salary for the Padres to dump, he's cheap and good, (2) the Padres already turned down a deal from the Red Sox (reportedly) that was a lot better than anything we could offer.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

(1) AGon doesn't have a big salary for the Padres to dump, he's cheap and good, (2) the Padres already turned down a deal from the Red Sox (reportedly) that was a lot better than anything we could offer.

I don't know about that. The Red Sox offered a ton, but it depends on what scouts are looking for and what a team's needs are. Hudson + Viciedo + Flowers + Danks + more is a pretty sick offer. IIRC it came out that during the Halladay talks the Blue Jays' people liked Casey Kelly more than anything else the Red Sox had to offer, even though most people probably would have seen Clay Buchholz as the #1 piece offered. There may be a general consensus of a team's top prospects, but none of us know what players the scouting directors and player development heads around the league like the most out of any given organization.

 

All I know is that if a deal is out there we'll be able to make a strong offer, and I hope Kenny does that.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I wouldn't give up big prospects for a 1st baseman.

 

First base and DH are the easiest positions to replace.

It may be the case that the 1B position is easier to fill with league-average talent than many others, but when you start talking about players who are capable of belting out 40 HR's, walking over 100 times, and posting an OPS near 1.000, those guys don't exactly grow on trees, regardless of position. Gonzalez's numbers have been ascending over the years, and he put up an OPS of .958 last year playing half his games at PetCo with no protection. The thought of a sophomore Gordon Beckham and a healthy CQ hitting around that beast makes me wanna... and I'll just leave it at that.

[balfanman]

It may be the case that the 1B position is easier to fill with league-average talent than many others, but when you start talking about players who are capable of belting out 40 HR's, walking over 100 times, and posting an OPS near 1.000, those guys don't exactly grow on trees, regardless of position. Gonzalez's numbers have been ascending over the years, and he put up an OPS of .958 last year playing half his games at PetCo with no protection. The thought of a sophomore Gordon Beckham and a healthy CQ hitting around that beast makes me wanna... and I'll just leave it at that.

 

I agree. I would think that a trade with San Diego would almost have to be a 3 team deal because Konerko would almost have to be a part of it and San Diego would have no use for an expensive 1st basemen. Although they could follow the Billy Beane model and trade Konerko mid season for more prospects I suppose.

 

[witesoxfan]

I agree. I would think that a trade with San Diego would almost have to be a 3 team deal because Konerko would almost have to be a part of it and San Diego would have no use for an expensive 1st basemen. Although they could follow the Billy Beane model and trade Konerko mid season for more prospects I suppose.

 

Gonzalez could be used as the DH too, moving to 1B following 2010 when Konerko is a free agent.

[chisoxfan09]

It may be the case that the 1B position is easier to fill with league-average talent than many others, but when you start talking about players who are capable of belting out 40 HR's, walking over 100 times, and posting an OPS near 1.000, those guys don't exactly grow on trees, regardless of position. Gonzalez's numbers have been ascending over the years, and he put up an OPS of .958 last year playing half his games at PetCo with no protection. The thought of a sophomore Gordon Beckham and a healthy CQ hitting around that beast makes me wanna... and I'll just leave it at that.

 

Cmon Kenny, makes you wanna what? What already?? :-)

[chisoxfan09]

It may be the case that the 1B position is easier to fill with league-average talent than many others, but when you start talking about players who are capable of belting out 40 HR's, walking over 100 times, and posting an OPS near 1.000, those guys don't exactly grow on trees, regardless of position. Gonzalez's numbers have been ascending over the years, and he put up an OPS of .958 last year playing half his games at PetCo with no protection. The thought of a sophomore Gordon Beckham and a healthy CQ hitting around that beast makes me wanna... and I'll just leave it at that.

 

On a serious note Kenny, I believe that order of the lineup has a lot of pop and OBP. But it is gonna take a huge haul and part of me wants to see how our prospects develop. Can Agon be the final piece to get us into serious contention? Who knows? Not just win that easy division but World Series.

[WCSox]

On a serious note Kenny, I believe that order of the lineup has a lot of pop and OBP. But it is gonna take a huge haul and part of me wants to see how our prospects develop. Can Agon be the final piece to get us into serious contention? Who knows? Not just win that easy division but World Series.

 

It would probably take Beckham to do this deal, and that would be very dumb of us.

 

Alternatively, Kenny could offer Hudson, Flowers, and a couple of other prospects. But I think that somebody else would out-bid him.

 

[southsider2k5]

It may be the case that the 1B position is easier to fill with league-average talent than many others, but when you start talking about players who are capable of belting out 40 HR's, walking over 100 times, and posting an OPS near 1.000, those guys don't exactly grow on trees, regardless of position. Gonzalez's numbers have been ascending over the years, and he put up an OPS of .958 last year playing half his games at PetCo with no protection. The thought of a sophomore Gordon Beckham and a healthy CQ hitting around that beast makes me wanna... and I'll just leave it at that.

 

I don't see a deal like this getting done without Gordo.