Sox need defense for serious run in 2010

[ThunderBolt]

Thunderbolt Walks in thread, screams "JAYSON NIX." Bows, Collects Check, Leaves

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I'd be against any realistic plan that starts off trade Buehrle.That is the kind of hole digging that just never seems to accomplish anything.

 

+1

 

MB should not go anywhere. He is the face of the franchise, he lightens the mood in the clubhouse, he is still very productive, and there's just no reason to let him go IMO.

[iamshack]

Thunderbolt Walks in thread, screams "JAYSON NIX." Bows, Collects Check, Leaves

Leave this in the other thread please.

[southsider2k5]

I agree the budget is a major concern , however that just means that one of the high priced vets might have to be moved and unfortunately the most likely candidate is Mark Buehrle . Replacing MB with Hudson would be a huge risk especially with Garcia on his last legs. I wonder if the Nationals would be interesting in moving John Lannan and Nyger Morgan. Would take a decent package of say Buehrle + part of his salary , Getz , Hudson ..more ? I know , I know how could I even think of sending MB to the Nationals of all places ? I have no idea what the salaries of Lannan and Morgan are so I don't know how much salary could be freed up by such a deal. Too bad it seems like we're stuck with Rios.

 

You lost me at Mark Buehrle being the most likely guy to go. The top of that list is Bobby Jenks. Buehrle is going to be one of the last guys to go. You can't trade the face of the organization after a down year. The general fanbase would go nuts. They are already trying to keep the season ticketholder base, you don't give them a great reason to cancel.

[NorthSideSox72]

Our starting rotation is clearly set, something that not many teams, if any, can match, as it stands at this point.

A good dh is absolutely vital to the white sox success. I would argue we need to above average bats to come in this off-season plus at least two arms down in the pen. Konerko will likely never hit much more than 30 in a season again. As far as i am concerned quentin is nothing more a question mark, we cannot bank on his 2008 numbers, as much as everyone here wants to. A happy medium of his 2008 and 2009 season is much more realistic. We lack any legit thunder in the line-up at this point. Replacing dye and thome's production is gonna be quite the task, what they have done while playing in chicago has been taken for granted. How many people in the pen is anyone exactly confident to get outs on a consistent basis? If you add them all up, you may come to about two and a half. Very big problem we have in regards to the bullpen as it stands. There is a reason there is a strong correlation to a good bullpen and in season + post season success.

 

Unless the sox starters go 7+ all season long while limiting the opposition to 3 or less, we would be in just fine and dandy shape. Too bad that is just not gonna happen. Kw has a lot of work to do this off-season to field a championship caliber team, which i cannot see done without four players brought in one way or another (hudson in the pen would drastically help... potentially that is).

Bullpens are such a crapshoot though, I would be loathe to spend big bucks on 2 bullpen arms. I'd be more likely to want one new one, and work within what we have in-system for the rest.

 

But I agree fully on the bats. DH needs to be high priority, probably higher than any other single thing. We need to add power in the OF as well. The IF will provide an above average amount, I think.

 

[Quin]

I am too. If there's a way to improve the infielder and outfielder D without giving up starting pitcher I'm all for it.

 

1) Alexei and Jenks for Ellsbury, Bard, Okajima gets you an improved outfield D (at least over Pods/Dye). Move Beckham to short and sign Figgins for third.

 

2) Flowers + 1 or 2 Good Prospects for Crawford, then let Getz/Alexei/Beckham get another year under their belts at their positions.

 

The Starting Rotation should be left intact for now.

[qwerty]

I agree the budget is a major concern , however that just means that one of the high priced vets might have to be moved and unfortunately the most likely candidate is Mark Buehrle . Replacing MB with Hudson would be a huge risk especially with Garcia on his last legs. I wonder if the Nationals would be interesting in moving John Lannan and Nyger Morgan. Would take a decent package of say Buehrle + part of his salary , Getz , Hudson ..more ? I know , I know how could I even think of sending MB to the Nationals of all places ? I have no idea what the salaries of Lannan and Morgan are so I don't know how much salary could be freed up by such a deal. Too bad it seems like we're stuck with Rios.

 

Lannan has two years of service time and morgan roughly a year and third. Both make peanuts. Lannan would post a 4 plus in the american league, it's not like he is some stud. For the nationals to even consider taking on a player that makes 14 million a season, i cannot see them asking for less then half to be paid. Hudson very well could put up similar numbers to lannan, for less money, while being younger (will be 23 next season). Basically you are proposing to trade our abundance of starting pitching for a lesser pitcher and nyjer morgan. We would no longer have the luxury of sliding hudson into the rotation when someone goes down. Once more we would be back to the old revolving door of fifth starters. No thank you.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Our starting rotation is clearly set, something that not many teams, if any, can match, as it stands at this point.

A good dh is absolutely vital to the white sox success. I would argue we need to above average bats to come in this off-season plus at least two arms down in the pen. Konerko will likely never hit much more than 30 in a season again. As far as i am concerned quentin is nothing more a question mark, we cannot bank on his 2008 numbers, as much as everyone here wants to. A happy medium of his 2008 and 2009 season is much more realistic. We lack any legit thunder in the line-up at this point. Replacing dye and thome's production is gonna be quite the task, what they have done while playing in chicago has been taken for granted. How many people in the pen is anyone exactly confident to get outs on a consistent basis? If you add them all up, you may come to about two and a half. Very big problem we have in regards to the bullpen as it stands. There is a reason there is a strong correlation to a good bullpen and in season + post season success.

 

Unless the sox starters go 7+ all season long while limiting the opposition to 3 or less, we would be in just fine and dandy shape. Too bad that is just not gonna happen. Kw has a lot of work to do this off-season to field a championship caliber team, which i cannot see done without four players brought in one way or another (hudson in the pen would drastically help... potentially that is).

 

It will be interesting to see which direction KW goes. If this truly is to be a drug free era then it seems necessary that you keep your older players fresh with a revolving DH. I want to maximize the strength we already have (starting pitching) by improving the D around it. Clearly some areas will be neglected unless we clear some salary . With Polanco and Morgan , defense and speed and veteran leadership is added. That's the kind of ball Ozzie seems to prefer. Power hitting will be neglected yes but they replace Getz/Nix and Pods who's power numbers don't matter anyway. If we fix the defense then after that maybe you can find a lefthanded power bat for DH or fix the bullpen. Put clearly there will be holes somewhere and I'd prefer it to be on offense and hope Beckham , Rios, and Quentin can improve enough not to make the offense a black hole.

 

Put a good defense out there and the bullpen is also automatically improved.

Edited October 29, 2009 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[qwerty]

Bullpens are such a crapshoot though, I would be loathe to spend big bucks on 2 bullpen arms. I'd be more likely to want one new one, and work within what we have in-system for the rest.

 

But I agree fully on the bats. DH needs to be high priority, probably higher than any other single thing. We need to add power in the OF as well. The IF will provide an above average amount, I think.

 

As i said, we need arms in the pen one way or another, i don't care how they are acquired. I would also say relievers in general are a crapshoot, bullpens as a whole do not have to be. There are many relievers around the majors that you know pretty well what you are gonna get year in year out. That is not to say those relievers cannot have a down season here or there. The key is finding those consistent relievers. A team cannot go into a season having almost everyone in the pen a question mark, and hoping they live up to their potential. It rarely works, and if and when it does, it doesn't last exceptionally long. A good bullpen is a key, making a game practically over after 6-7 innings compared to 9 innings is a nice luxury to have. The angels and twins have been doing it for years, among others. I'm not saying it's easy, but it can be done.

[Balta1701]

I have to throw my hat in with the folks who say that the defense should be improved next year even if we do nothing. If ramirez 2010 isn't better than Ramirez 2009 then we're really going to have a mess. Beckham at 3b ought to be better than Fields at 3b + 1/2 season of Beckham rapidly improving at 3b. If Nix is genuinely spending the offseason working at other positions like we've been told, then that'll be an improvement right there. Dye leaving RF replaced by almost anyone should be an improvement. Quentin hopefully healing should be an improvement. Rios in CF should be a major, major upgrade if he sticks there every day. At worst, Getz should be the same 2b he was last year, which wasn't terrible.

 

I'm not going to oppose a move that upgrades the defense, but I wouldn't reshuffle the whole thing just to make a defensive improvement.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Lannan has two years of service time and morgan roughly a year and third. Both make peanuts. Lannan would post a 4 plus in the american league, it's not like he is some stud. For the nationals to even consider taking on a player that makes 14 million a season, i cannot see them asking for less then half to be paid. Hudson very well could put up similar numbers to lannan, for less money, while being younger (will be 23 next season). Basically you are proposing to trade our abundance of starting pitching for a lesser pitcher and nyjer morgan. We would no longer have the luxury of sliding hudson into the rotation when someone goes down. Once more we would be back to the old revolving door of fifth starters. No thank you.

I didn't like proposing that trade at all. Everyone loves MB. He's a quality starter ,a great fielder, and great at holding runners and picking them off and a huge clubhouse presence. I later said if there's a way to improve the D without touching the starting pitching I'm all for it. But he makes a ton of money , has a ton of innings on his arm and didn't pitch well after the perfect game. He still has great trade value . Waiting one more year to trade him might be a huge mistake. Sometimes you have to give up one huge piece to fill 2 or more holes . He's just the most logical candidate at this point. If we could do that trade without Hudson being included it would look a lot better.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I have to throw my hat in with the folks who say that the defense should be improved next year even if we do nothing. If ramirez 2010 isn't better than Ramirez 2009 then we're really going to have a mess. Beckham at 3b ought to be better than Fields at 3b + 1/2 season of Beckham rapidly improving at 3b. If Nix is genuinely spending the offseason working at other positions like we've been told, then that'll be an improvement right there. Dye leaving RF replaced by almost anyone should be an improvement. Quentin hopefully healing should be an improvement. Rios in CF should be a major, major upgrade if he sticks there every day. At worst, Getz should be the same 2b he was last year, which wasn't terrible.

 

I'm not going to oppose a move that upgrades the defense, but I wouldn't reshuffle the whole thing just to make a defensive improvement.

 

That was my thinking also. Too many people propose moving Alexei to 2nd and Beckham to short/ 2nd . We saw improvements in Becks and Alexei toward the end of the year . They WILL be playing 3rd and SS end of story. Better D improves an already very good starting staff and could lower a team ERA by .50 to 1.00 as evidenced by the improvement the Rangers made. Think of all the doubles and triples run down by a Rios and Morgan in the outfield together instead of Pods and Dye. Suddenly Linebrink , Pena and other members of the bullpen get better without making a trade. Defense is vastly under rated when talking about improving a team.

[NorthSideSox72]

As i said, we need arms in the pen one way or another, i don't care how they are acquired. I would also say relievers in general are a crapshoot, bullpens as a whole do not have to be. There are many relievers around the majors that you know pretty well what you are gonna get year in year out. That is not to say those relievers cannot have a down season here or there. The key is finding those consistent relievers. A team cannot go into a season having almost everyone in the pen a question mark, and hoping they live up to their potential. It rarely works, and if and when it does, it doesn't last exceptionally long. A good bullpen is a key, making a game practically over after 6-7 innings compared to 9 innings is a nice luxury to have. The angels and twins have been doing it for years, among others. I'm not saying it's easy, but it can be done.

I agree that a solid bullpen is key, I was really jsut trying to make the point that going out and spending money/prospects on big name relievers isn't necessarily the way to do that. There are some consistent, successful relievers to be had, but they are rare and expensive.

 

Of course, I also think that Jenks will recover nicely in 2010, but I think I'm in the minority there. Linebrink almost has to be better. Pena I am not sold on though. I think we try to go get one, consistent, lefty specialist. Jenks to close, Thornton and Linebrink* to set up, and fill the rest with Hudson, Carrasco, Pena/Nunez and the acquired left. I don't see the lefty as a big time acquisition, just a specialist. Linebrink is likely to have a solid first half IMO, at least, and then you can think about other moves if he falls off.

 

Mind you, if we can get a solid setup guy to replace Linebrink this offseason and offload Liney's salary somehow, I am all for that. I just think its going to be really hard to do.

 

My priorities for this offseason, if I'm KW:

 

--DH

--1 OF

--Lefty reliever

--Setup guy

 

The first two being most important, the bottom two being lesser priorities.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

That was my thinking also. Too many people propose moving Alexei to 2nd and Beckham to short/ 2nd . We saw improvements in Becks and Alexei toward the end of the year . They WILL be playing 3rd and SS end of story. Better D improves an already very good starting staff and could lower a team ERA by .50 to 1.00 as evidenced by the improvement the Rangers made. Think of all the doubles and triples run down by a Rios and Morgan in the outfield together instead of Pods and Dye. Suddenly Linebrink , Pena and other members of the bullpen get better without making a trade. Defense is vastly under rated when talking about improving a team.

Am I the only one who was HOPING for Alexei to improve defensively but saw him just be the same? I must be nuts or something. I saw no improvement.

 

[Wanne]

For as much as I like Hudson...Polanco makes so much sense it we're serious about contending this year IMO. I don't know about you...but I got sick of facing the dude all the time as a Tiger. It's not that I dislike Getz or Nix...but Polanco for 3 years. I wouldn't mind that at all. The only people I can see having a problem are the equipment guys getting a friggin hat and helmet big enough for that planetoid of a noggin!

 

 

 

[Kalapse]

Hudson fits the bill he just will be more expensive to sign then Polanco will. I see Hudson getting 4-5 years whereas Polanco could be signed for 2-3 years and at less money per year.

Hudson will be lucky to get 2 guaranteed years.

 

I didn't say the Sox would be interested, I'm just surprised that Placido's name would come up before Orlando's.

[balfanman]

Doesn't Mark Buehrle have full no trade rights now? I would think that it would be very doubtful if he would approve of a trade to the Nationals.

[Kalapse]

Doesn't Mark Buehrle have full no trade rights now? I would think that it would be very doubtful if he would approve of a trade to the Nationals.

Right now he has a limited no trade clause so he could only block trades to a few teams, he'll get his 10/5 rights on July 16th so 2 weeks before the trade deadline he'll be able to block any trade.

[balfanman]

Gee, ask questions around here and you get answers! That's cool. Thanks Kalapse.

[witesoxfan]

I agree that a solid bullpen is key, I was really jsut trying to make the point that going out and spending money/prospects on big name relievers isn't necessarily the way to do that. There are some consistent, successful relievers to be had, but they are rare and expensive.

 

Of course, I also think that Jenks will recover nicely in 2010, but I think I'm in the minority there. Linebrink almost has to be better. Pena I am not sold on though. I think we try to go get one, consistent, lefty specialist. Jenks to close, Thornton and Linebrink* to set up, and fill the rest with Hudson, Carrasco, Pena/Nunez and the acquired left. I don't see the lefty as a big time acquisition, just a specialist. Linebrink is likely to have a solid first half IMO, at least, and then you can think about other moves if he falls off.

 

Mind you, if we can get a solid setup guy to replace Linebrink this offseason and offload Liney's salary somehow, I am all for that. I just think its going to be really hard to do.

 

My priorities for this offseason, if I'm KW:

 

--DH

--1 OF

--Lefty reliever

--Setup guy

 

The first two being most important, the bottom two being lesser priorities.

 

I actually have much more faith in Pena over the course of a full season than I do Linebrink. There has to be something about Linebrink's splitter or slider that absolutely destroys his arm and really inhibits him from throwing the pitch effectively throughout the course of the year, and then he has to depend on a 95 MPH straight fastball from mid-July on, which gets him crushed. Pena's stuff stayed the same, and his problem seemed to be leaving pitches up in the zone. FWIW, and I understand ERA isn't a great statistic to use, Pena's ERA with the Sox was 3.75. With the Sox, his control improved and he struck more hitters out, and also allowed fewer hits. I think Pena is going to have a great season next year as Dotel's replacement.

[caulfield12]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Mariners in this thread. They were another team that exemplified the "defense/pitching first" approach with their new GM, and it wasn't incredibly expensive.

 

Players like Endy Chavez and Franklyn Gutierrez made a huge difference for that team's outfield defense, especially in the first half of the season. That trade by the Indians' overrated Shapiro was one of the dumbest in a long time, by the way. Gutierrez is an incredible defender.

 

You're almost tempted to go for broke gambling on Adrian Beltre at 3B, with Beckham moved to 2B and Alexei/Beckham manning the middle infield. That certainly would get you some big-time improvement across the board, but Belte still will PROBABLY be too expensive and take too many years, although I wouldn't count it out completely, especially if Jenks is non-tendered.

 

Trading Buehrle won't happen.

 

I like Polanco or Hudson as secondary options, and I think Ozzie would feel more comfortable with either at the top of the line-up...Getz was just a little too fragile to pencil in for an entire season of play, just like it's almost impossible to do the same thing with Quentin. Heck, it's really scary to project Alex Rios to have anything above a 700 OPS at this point, but you'd have to think he could hopefully get back to 750 or 775 if we're to be a contender.

 

Other names that will be floated about include the likes of Juan Pierre and CoCo Crisp...because they're more likely than names like Ross, Kemp, McLouth or Hermida, for example. Or even Nyjer Morgan. We all know Scotty Pods and defense don't go together, although he was remarkably better this year than he was in the past, once again, hard to count on him to repeat 2009.

 

I also think it's a lot easier to find a decent RF who can out-field JD than to find a stellar CF. Kotsay at RF/1B might be the "low budget" option, unfortunately. Someone like Matt Holliday simply isn't happening. It's more likely we'd see M. Gatrell than Matt Holliday in RF, for that matter.

Edited October 29, 2009 by caulfield12

[elrockinMT]

I find it shocking that Orlando Hudson's name has yet to be mentioned or maybe I'm just not paying close enough attention.

 

 

I hope we don't go through that again. He lost his starting job and we have a need for him?

[Kalapse]

I hope we don't go through that again. He lost his starting job and we have a need for him?

Hudson did struggle over the final month and a half of the season but his decreased playing time had a lot to do with Ronnie Belliard's outstanding September (1.022 OPS) and the fact that his incentives were kicking in so he was making an extra $10,000 per plate appearance. Even with his struggles he still put up an OBP higher than Podsednik and his 2.9 WAR would have been the highest on the Sox in 2009.

[RockRaines]

I'd love to have Polanco, it just wont happen. That guy is a hitting machine and is the prototypical #2 hitter.

[GreatScott82]

The only way I'd see Polanco coming here is if Getz is moved in seperate deal perhaps to bring in that prototypical leadoff OF or some bullpen depth. KW has many pieces to play with this winter. I remember back in August when we were struggling he said he would love to keep this team in tact, but if they fail to produce, he would "use his imagination to the fullest in the offseason". I don't know about you guys but i think KW will pull off some blockbuster deal this winter.