Kalapse Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Nov 9, 2009 -> 12:54 PM) Because gap hitters will hit more HRs at the Cell, while HR hitters won't necessarily hit more doubles. But HR hitters should hit more HR since a flyout to the warning track in most parks is a HR at the Cell. You could also argue that the small outfield of US Cellular Field would limit a gap hitter's opportunities to find the gap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Nov 9, 2009 -> 01:00 PM) But HR hitters should hit more HR since a flyout to the warning track in most parks is a HR at the Cell. You could also argue that the small outfield of US Cellular Field would limit a gap hitter's opportunities to find the gap. I could argue that, but then I would show you 28 doubles by one Gordon Beckham. Of course, he did have 16 doubles in 204 ABs on the road (1 every 12.75 AB) vs. 12 in 174 ABs at home (1 every 14.5 AB), so I guess that proves your point. Expanding it out, though, as Thunderbolt says, gap hitters should be more consistent throughout the year and regardless of park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Nov 9, 2009 -> 01:07 PM) Of course, he did have 16 doubles in 204 ABs on the road (1 every 12.75 AB) vs. 12 in 174 ABs at home (1 every 14.5 AB), so I guess that proves your point. Expanding it out, though, as Thunderbolt says, gap hitters should be more consistent throughout the year and regardless of park. There are very few hitters who put up a consistent performance from month to month and these are generally the super elite of the league. a good .800 OPS hitter is typically going to have a couple .900 OPS months a .680 month or 2 and the rest will be somewhere in the .700's. You're not getting six .800 OPS months. Case in point: Adrubal Cabrera, not an elite hitter but he had a damn good season in 2009 finishing with 42 doubles (16th in baseball), 6 HR, .308 AVG, .799 OPS and .354 wOBA. A very valuable ballplayer putting up numbers that most teams would love to get out of a middle infielder. Did his gap power maker him a more consistent hitter from month to month? AVG/OPS .329/.877 .313/.773 .231/.538 .262/.743 .370/.915 .276/.734 no, no it didn't. What about a 10 HR/40 2B, .300 hitter like Alberto Callaspo? .379/.978 .260/.715 .283/.765 .316/.846 .255/.638 .336/.987 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Nov 9, 2009 -> 01:20 PM) There are very few hitters who put up a consistent performance from month to month and these are generally the super elite of the league. a good .800 OPS hitter is typically going to have a couple .900 OPS months a .680 month or 2 and the rest will be somewhere in the .700's. You're not getting six .800 OPS months. Case in point: Adrubal Cabrera, not an elite hitter but he had a damn good season in 2009 finishing with 42 doubles (16th in baseball), 6 HR, .308 AVG, .799 OPS and .354 wOBA. A very valuable ballplayer putting up numbers that most teams would love to get out of a middle infielder. Did his gap power maker him a more consistent hitter from month to month? .329/.877 .313/.773 .231/.538 .262/.743 .370/.915 .276/.734 no, no it didn't. What about a 10 HR/40 2B, .300 hitter like Alberto Callaspo? Look Stat-y Stat-erton... Would you say a gap hitter would put more productive balls-in-play over the course of the season rather than the pop-out/fly-out/double play balls we've seen from the White Sox home run hitters? Personally, I could care less about month-to-month AVG/OBP is the outs are productive outs. Moving runners over, sacrifices, putting more pressure on the defense to make plays. And whether or not you consider that consistency, I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Nov 9, 2009 -> 01:27 PM) Look Stat-y Stat-erton... Would you say a gap hitter would put more productive balls-in-play over the course of the season rather than the pop-out/fly-out/double play balls we've seen from the White Sox home run hitters? Personally, I could care less about month-to-month AVG/OBP is the outs are productive outs. Moving runners over, sacrifices, putting more pressure on the defense to make plays. And whether or not you consider that consistency, I do. Basically what you're looking for is a rather substantial downgrade in overall production if it means those 2 or 3 sub .740 OPS months contain maybe a few more weak groundouts to second and sacrifice bunts. Guys like Lyle Overbay (classic gap power) aren't "putting pressure on the defense" during their slumps they're weakly flying out to LF and grounding to second. Slumps aren't particularly pretty, doesn't matter what kind of hitter you are. Unless of course you want David Eckstein or Luis Castillo starting for you at 1B, they could probably play good team baseball 5 months out of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Why would Toronto want to make this deal...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 QUOTE (chw42 @ Nov 9, 2009 -> 02:04 PM) Why would Toronto want to make this deal...? Because Overbay isn't all that great and he's making $7M for a team that is looking to cut payroll and rebuild. I imagine any team willing to take on his entire 2010 salary could pick him up for a couple non-prospects like McCulloch and Armstrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scenario Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 The problem is... now that Toronto has fired Riccardi the odds of them giving up something for nothing has gone down dramatically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 QUOTE (scenario @ Nov 9, 2009 -> 03:11 PM) The problem is... now that Toronto has fired Riccardi the odds of them giving up something for nothing has gone down dramatically. Over bay is Over paid. If they want to move him and still get something in return they'll have to either eat salary or take on a bad contract. If another team assumes his entire contract, expect them to receive nothing of value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPN366 Posted November 9, 2009 Author Share Posted November 9, 2009 QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Nov 9, 2009 -> 03:46 PM) Over bay is Over paid. If they want to move him and still get something in return they'll have to either eat salary or take on a bad contract. If another team assumes his entire contract, expect them to receive nothing of value. Thus, my trade idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba43 Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Nov 10, 2009 -> 02:18 AM) PS what is it with the Sox and all this "gap hitter" nonsense? This team needs some f***ing power. We already have the King of Gap Hitters and we just moved him to 2B.Thank god someone else feels the way i do . I mean its like everybody has got this speed and gap power as a magical formula for a championship run . We play 81 games in the cell people . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba43 Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 For 7mil Overbay and we have to give them players ? NO THANKS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Looks like Overbay is being rumored in another 3 way deal involving luis castillo and milton bradley http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/1034602...d-in-3-way-deal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Nov 9, 2009 -> 03:06 PM) Because Overbay isn't all that great and he's making $7M for a team that is looking to cut payroll and rebuild. I imagine any team willing to take on his entire 2010 salary could pick him up for a couple non-prospects like McCulloch and Armstrong. $7 million for a guy who had an wOBA of .363 last year isn't that bad of a deal. Sure, he's a 1B and a stat like that doesn't make him very appealing, but Konerko only had a .362 wOBA last year. Both Konerko and Overbay are average defenders. So basically, Overbay is being paid $7 million to be about as productive as Konerko, while Paulie is being paid $12 million. This is no knock on Konerko, but you guys are undervaluing Overbay. Given his current situation, the trade does seem to gain some validity, but if I'm Toronto, I want more than two minor league failures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 QUOTE (1977 sox fan @ Nov 9, 2009 -> 05:03 PM) For 7mil Overbay and we have to give them players ? NO THANKS The Sox really aren't trading players in this instance, but rather people who wear baseball uniforms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 QUOTE (chw42 @ Nov 9, 2009 -> 11:51 PM) $7 million for a guy who had an wOBA of .363 last year isn't that bad of a deal. Sure, he's a 1B and a stat like that doesn't make him very appealing, but Konerko only had a .362 wOBA last year. Both Konerko and Overbay are average defenders. So basically, Overbay is being paid $7 million to be about as productive as Konerko, while Paulie is being paid $12 million. This is no knock on Konerko, but you guys are undervaluing Overbay. Given his current situation, the trade does seem to gain some validity, but if I'm Toronto, I want more than two minor league failures. He was pretty bad in '07 and '08 and he'll be 33 on opening day, he's not a great bet for 2010. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Kalapse @ Nov 10, 2009 -> 12:28 AM) He was pretty bad in '07 and '08 and he'll be 33 on opening day, he's not a great bet for 2010. He got injured in 07 and he was still an above league average hitter back in 08. Edited November 10, 2009 by chw42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 QUOTE (chw42 @ Nov 10, 2009 -> 12:45 AM) He got injured in 07 and he was still an above league average hitter back in 08. Not for a first baseman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickofypres Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Come on guys, lets keep it in perspective, AJ to Atlanta for McCann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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