Sox GM Meetings

[balfanman]

I would like to see them take a risk and go up to $120M. Give those starters some more confidence. Having a starting 4 like this at trying to be cheap at the same time is like Culter trying to work with the Bears O.

 

This has been my thought process for a couple of months now. I think that you now have true Sox fans excited about next season with the potential (almost sure thing) awesomeness of our starting rotation. I think that if you now take a plung and add that "big bat" you will then get the casual fan excited about next year and ticket sales climb.

 

When Kenny said something the other day about trying to get Jerry to up the budget a little bit it made me think that Kenny is thinking along these same lines (at least I hope that he is) and has a trade in the works for this "big bat". JMHO

[RibbieRubarb]

If the past shows us anything, Jerry is willing to up the budget if Kenny says we need to do it to win. We're not talking $200 million, but another 10 is possible.

[bmags]

Hypothetically, if Jerry all the sudden popped the wrong meds and was like "Kenny, you got 200 mill to work with", what the hell would our team look like? That would be the rams.

[southsider2k5]

This has been my thought process for a couple of months now. I think that you now have true Sox fans excited about next season with the potential (almost sure thing) awesomeness of our starting rotation. I think that if you now take a plung and add that "big bat" you will then get the casual fan excited about next year and ticket sales climb.

 

When Kenny said something the other day about trying to get Jerry to up the budget a little bit it made me think that Kenny is thinking along these same lines (at least I hope that he is) and has a trade in the works for this "big bat". JMHO

 

Big budget increases at the exact time the Sox revenues are taking the biggest hits from this recession is just about as much of a fantasy as some of the trade threads that populate Soxtalk during the offseason.

[Kyyle23]

Big budget increases at the exact time the Sox revenues are taking the biggest hits from this recession is just about as much of a fantasy as some of the trade threads that populate Soxtalk during the offseason.

 

PUJOLS FTW!!!!!

[Rowand44]

If the past shows us anything, Jerry is willing to up the budget if Kenny says we need to do it to win. We're not talking $200 million, but another 10 is possible.

Exactly. If Kenny has to add some extra salary to acquire a big bat then I'm sure Jerry will up the budget to let him do so.

[RibbieRubarb]

As we saw this year, if there is extra room in the budget Kenny usually saves it for mid-season moves.

[iamshack]

As we saw this year, if there is extra room in the budget Kenny usually saves it for mid-season moves.

Yeah, he does like to wait around til' June or so and see what's cooking around baseball. At that point, we are usually still competitive because our division leader is rarely running away with things, so he convinces Jerry that we can make the playoffs if we can just add that one additional piece to put us over the top...

[southsider2k5]

I think he also realizes that the way the market went last off season, the best signings might occur at the end of the period, because not many teams are going to have cash to spend.

[Dick Allen]

Yeah, he does like to wait around til' June or so and see what's cooking around baseball. At that point, we are usually still competitive because our division leader is rarely running away with things, so he convinces Jerry that we can make the playoffs if we can just add that one additional piece to put us over the top...

 

Last year was the first time I ever recall him adding significant payroll around June. In 2003 he added Alomar and Everett but the other teams paid most of the fare. I don't know about MacDougal, Horacio Ramirez and Blum being payroll busters. Usually around June he would talk to Thome and Konerko and determine what he had was fine IIRC.

 

[southsider2k5]

Freddy Garcia?

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Freddy Garcia?

And Jose Contreras the same year, plus he tried for Carlos Delgado but Delgado invoked his NTC. Contreras wasn't as significant as Peavy and Rios in terms of cash allowed, but he did have 2+ years remaining on his contract when we got him. The Yankees did eat salary though.

[southsider2k5]

And Jose Contreras the same year, plus he tried for Carlos Delgado but Delgado invoked his NTC. Contreras wasn't as significant as Peavy and Rios in terms of cash allowed, but he did have 2+ years remaining on his contract when we got him. The Yankees did eat salary though.

 

Yeah, I can't remember what Esteban Loiaza was making at the time, but even if you look at the money we picked up in 2004 to get Contreras, I know we added money. We added a bunch if you looked the years remaining on his deal.

[Dick Allen]

When they acquired Garcia, they received some cash back and he was making about $6.5 million then anyway with half of it paid. They only added a couple million to the payroll. With Contreras, they got cash and took on no immediate money.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

Last year was the first time I ever recall him adding significant payroll around June. In 2003 he added Alomar and Everett but the other teams paid most of the fare. I don't know about MacDougal, Horacio Ramirez and Blum being payroll busters. Usually around June he would talk to Thome and Konerko and determine what he had was fine IIRC.

Dude, you have a really scary obsession with the White Sox budget...

 

No one is really claiming that we have added significant payroll at the break, but we certainly have left room over the years to make a few additions at the break. If we were constantly taking on significant salary at the break, fans (like yourself) would immediately jump on them for hiding that money and not spending it prior to the season (as you did when they added Peavy and Rios).

 

The point is that KW likes to shape his team as he sees fit both prior to the season as well as in the midst of it.

Edited November 15, 2009 by iamshack

[Dick Allen]

Dude, you have a really scary obsession with the White Sox budget...

 

No one is really claiming that we have added significant payroll at the break, but we certainly have left room over the years to make a few additions at the break. If we were constantly taking on significant salary at the break, fans (like yourself) would immediately jump on them for hiding that money and not spending it prior to the season (as you did when they added Peavy and Rios).

 

The point is that KW likes to shape his team as he sees fit both prior to the season as well as in the midst of it.

I'm just stating facts unlike yours where you say he waits around until June and asks JR for money. Its happened but its rare and its guys like you, the guys who think they spend every dime they make who should feel cheated when guys like Delgado and Soriano aren't acquired because by definition they would not be doing what you think they are. Its exactly the opposite of your thinking. If you are saying they left room for deadline deals and didn't make those deals, like most seasons, they wouldn't be spending all the money would they. The only year I ever b****ed about spending was 2009 and , as it turned out, I was right, as they upped the payroll significantly in season for the first time in KW's tenure. It must really kill you when I'm right.

 

The big problem with waiting until the deadline to acquire someone is it takes two to tango. Who knows if the other teams will be at least slightly reasonable and who knows what other teams also need a push and are willing to meet demands. If the Yankees or Boston or the Angels are looking for the same players you are, there is a definite disadvantage.

 

JR doesn't want to break even, although no one will be in trouble if he does, he doesn't want to lose money, and that's fine. All you really need to know about how he and his group really operate is to see the current state of the Bulls. It is a different situation because of the cap, but the Bulls make a lot of money and currently because of injury they have 10 guys who can play, Normally they have about 15 guys on the roster with 3 inactives but they only have 12 or 13 this year because they are right near the luxury tax. They won't take on a minimum salary guy because it will push them over that limit and instead of getting a piece of the pie from everyone over it, they would be forced to pay dollar for dollar what they are over. They would still make a big profit, but it would probably cost them a couple of million for a guy who would rarely play but with the shortage of players, may help the team. Now I don't advocate paying $2 million or more for a guy who may not ever play 8 minutes in a game, but if its all about breaking even, the extra player would certainly help in practice and in blowouts etc.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

DA,

For a guy that is an accountant, I just don't understand how you can possibly have such an incredibly naive view on how professional sports organizations operate. I'm absolutely certain if you've worked on corporate accounts, or even the more complex personal accounts, that you've seen how monies within the umbrella of the organization or even a personal portfolio can be moved around to support different functions they were not necessarily earmarked for to begin with. This is what happens in professional sports. Teams and owners have access to monies they might not have earmarked for payroll previously that they might access in order to make a key acquisition, or if their team is competitive near the trade deadline, to make an addition that might put them over the top. However, those monies may have been designated for other purposes before, so they were not counted on originally for payroll. I simple cannot understand how you refuse to grasp this concept.

 

It's as if the White Sox have credit cards, and unless they max every single account out, you're angry with them.

 

Personally, no, I'm not angry with JR or KW or the way the organization is operated. On the contrary, I feel quite blessed to have a General Manager that is extremely aggressive and not afraid to make bold moves or look into acquiring every marquee player that becomes available. I am thankful to have an owner that wants to win titles as badly as I do, and makes every effort to do so. All one has to do is look around at the rest of the teams ahead of the White Sox in payroll, and it's usually pretty obvious why, when you see their stadiums filled and their franchise-owned tv networks, etc., etc.

 

As for the acquisitions we haven't made, such as the Soriano's and the Delgado's, you may as well be Jay Hineybird. Delgado refused to accept a deal to come here. Soriano would have been a massive mistake, and luckily KW apparently decided the risk was not worth it. But we do look into impact players and difference makers as they become available, and to be honest with you, considering our attendance, as well as our relative standing in the major leagues, the number of impact-type players KW and JR acquire is disproportionate to that. Yet, I don't know what would satisfy you. You've never really stated what would actually make you happy. You are just on some ridiculous quest to prove that JR is embezzling White Sox money and hiding it in numbered accounts in Antigua or something.

Edited November 15, 2009 by iamshack

[ptatc]

I'm just stating facts unlike yours where you say he waits around until June and asks JR for money. Its happened but its rare and its guys like you, the guys who think they spend every dime they make who should feel cheated when guys like Delgado and Soriano aren't acquired because by definition they would not be doing what you think they are. Its exactly the opposite of your thinking. If you are saying they left room for deadline deals and didn't make those deals, like most seasons, they wouldn't be spending all the money would they. The only year I ever b****ed about spending was 2009 and , as it turned out, I was right, as they upped the payroll significantly in season for the first time in KW's tenure. It must really kill you when I'm right.

 

The big problem with waiting until the deadline to acquire someone is it takes two to tango. Who knows if the other teams will be at least slightly reasonable and who knows what other teams also need a push and are willing to meet demands. If the Yankees or Boston or the Angels are looking for the same players you are, there is a definite disadvantage.

 

JR doesn't want to break even, although no one will be in trouble if he does, he doesn't want to lose money, and that's fine. All you really need to know about how he and his group really operate is to see the current state of the Bulls. It is a different situation because of the cap, but the Bulls make a lot of money and currently because of injury they have 10 guys who can play, Normally they have about 15 guys on the roster with 3 inactives but they only have 12 or 13 this year because they are right near the luxury tax. They won't take on a minimum salary guy because it will push them over that limit and instead of getting a piece of the pie from everyone over it, they would be forced to pay dollar for dollar what they are over. They would still make a big profit, but it would probably cost them a couple of million for a guy who would rarely play but with the shortage of players, may help the team. Now I don't advocate paying $2 million or more for a guy who may not ever play 8 minutes in a game, but if its all about breaking even, the extra player would certainly help in practice and in blowouts etc.

 

While this is true there is another factor involved here. While JR is the managing partner for both the Sox and Bulls, the minority partners are the same group. He may have a different directive from the group in how he must deal with the Bulls profit line vs. the Sox profit line.

 

I mostly agree with the sentiment but don't make the assumption that just because the Bulls are managed down to the bottom line that the Sox must be as well.

 

[iamshack]

While this is true there is another factor involved here. While JR is the managing partner for both the Sox and Bulls, the minority partners are the same group. He may have a different directive from the group in how he must deal with the Bulls profit line vs. the Sox profit line.

 

I mostly agree with the sentiment but don't make the assumption that just because the Bulls are managed down to the bottom line that the Sox must be as well.

Everyone knows that while JR adored Michael Jordan and the Bulls during Jordan's career here, and the 6 titles, etc., etc., his real passion has and always will be the White Sox.

[Dick Allen]

DA,

For a guy that is an accountant, I just don't understand how you can possibly have such an incredibly naive view on how professional sports organizations operate. I'm absolutely certain if you've worked on corporate accounts, or even the more complex personal accounts, that you've seen how monies within the umbrella of the organization or even a personal portfolio can be moved around to support different functions they were not necessarily earmarked for to begin with. This is what happens in professional sports. Teams and owners have access to monies they might not have earmarked for payroll previously that they might access in order to make a key acquisition, or if their team is competitive near the trade deadline, to make an addition that might put them over the top. However, those monies may have been designated for other purposes before, so they were not counted on originally for payroll. I simple cannot understand how you refuse to grasp this concept.

 

It's as if the White Sox have credit cards, and unless they max every single account out, you're angry with them.

 

Personally, no, I'm not angry with JR or KW or the way the organization is operated. On the contrary, I feel quite blessed to have a General Manager that is extremely aggressive and not afraid to make bold moves or look into acquiring every marquee player that becomes available. I am thankful to have an owner that wants to win titles as badly as I do, and makes every effort to do so. All one has to do is look around at the rest of the teams ahead of the White Sox in payroll, and it's usually pretty obvious why, when you see their stadiums filled and their franchise-owned tv networks, etc., etc.

 

As for the acquisitions we haven't made, such as the Soriano's and the Delgado's, you may as well be Jay Hineybird. Delgado refused to accept a deal to come here. Soriano would have been a massive mistake, and luckily KW apparently decided the risk was not worth it. But we do look into impact players and difference makers as they become available, and to be honest with you, considering our attendance, as well as our relative standing in the major leagues, the number of impact-type players KW and JR acquire is disproportionate to that. Yet, I don't know what would satisfy you. You've never really stated what would actually make you happy. You are just on some ridiculous quest to prove that JR is embezzling White Sox money and hiding it in numbered accounts in Antigua or something.

I'm not complaining about not getting Delgado or Soriano, and its not me who says every dime that comes in is spent on the team, that's what KW says, and several people believe him. You know what he says about spending. Their checks aren't going to bounce. The fact is, if the White Sox pick up payroll, they aren't operating in the red. Forbes has estimated their collective profit from 2005-2008 to be $70 million. That's profit. That's after they pay everyone and everything, etc. The White Sox make money. That's usually a business' goal. I don't condemn them for it, I condemn the crying poor. Every team gets $35 million a year in licensing and media money from MLB. Some teams like the Marlins, could lock their gates and not let anyone in and still turn a profit. I had no problem with how the team was run until 2009 when they went cheap. Wise, Lillibridge leading off games, that was just being cheap. They spent some money eventually, but for the most part 2009 was getting what they paid for. I've never said he's embezzling money BTW. He and his partners are making it. Your the one who said they hold out money for June, well when KW talked to Konerko and Thome and decided they didn't need anyone what did they do with that money? Have a big party with a bunch of hookers? I don't understand how when KW talks, everyone laughs and says he's full of it because he would never tip his hand to other clubs, but when he talks about spending he's suddenly George Washington, and cannot tell a lie. The White Sox make money. Its not an evil thing.

[iamshack]

DA,

I'm sure if the White Sox were to sit down with you, an accountant, they would be happy to give you the more detailed and specific situation regarding their finances.

 

But when you're dealing with the masses, yeah, you say it in simple terms:

 

"We don't have much money to spend on payroll. Should a player become available that we believe is a high-impact player or a difference-maker, we will explore ways to get creative with a possible acquisition..."

 

I just don't get what else you expect them to say...do you expect them to give a detailed financial presentation to the fans?

 

Every team other than the Yankees and Boston basically says things like this. And even they have been saying it recently.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

DA,

I'm sure if the White Sox were to sit down with you, an accountant, they would be happy to give you the more detailed and specific situation regarding their finances.

 

But when you're dealing with the masses, yeah, you say it in simple terms:

 

"We don't have much money to spend on payroll. Should a player become available that we believe is a high-impact player or a difference-maker, we will explore ways to get creative with a possible acquisition..."

 

I just don't get what else you expect them to say...do you expect them to give a detailed financial presentation to the fans?

 

Every team other than the Yankees and Boston basically says things like this. And even they have been saying it recently.

 

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth here. You are basically agreeing with my argument. Just because they say they have no money, doesn't mean they actually have no money. See Peavy, Jake and Rios, Alex. Thats what I've been saying. You and ss2k5 buy into their claim they spend every dime that comes in, they only break even and if something down the road looks good they magically find the money somewhere to make it happen. Isn't it even slightly possible that Forbes is right and the Sox make a profit between $15-20 million every year?

 

I agree more teams have been chirping about lack of funds, perhaps not the extent KW does, but chirping nonetheless, and the players believe, and I'm sure there is at least a little validity to their claim although proving it would be difficult, that collusion is taking place. Of course more businesses and people are talking about less funds these days, and paying players less, especially the mediocre ones, in the long run is only a good thing for people like us who pay to go to games.

 

BTW, only a select few get to see their books. I wouldn't qualify. I also don't have a problem with them making a profit. Its the lack of money talk that bothers me and the raising of ticket prices while lowering payroll in 2009 that got me to complain about spending for the first time.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth here. You are basically agreeing with my argument. Just because they say they have no money, doesn't mean they actually have no money. See Peavy, Jake and Rios, Alex. Thats what I've been saying. You and ss2k5 buy into their claim they spend every dime that comes in, they only break even and if something down the road looks good they magically find the money somewhere to make it happen. Isn't it even slightly possible that Forbes is right and the Sox make a profit between $15-20 million every year?

 

I agree more teams have been chirping about lack of funds, perhaps not the extent KW does, but chirping nonetheless, and the players believe, and I'm sure there is at least a little validity to their claim although proving it would be difficult, that collusion is taking place. Of course more businesses and people are talking about less funds these days, and paying players less, especially the mediocre ones, in the long run is only a good thing for people like us who pay to go to games.

 

BTW, only a select few get to see their books. I wouldn't qualify. I also don't have a problem with them making a profit. Its the lack of money talk that bothers me and the raising of ticket prices while lowering payroll in 2009 that got me to complain about spending for the first time.

I personally believe what the Sox say when it comes to their financials, but I'll admit that they could be telling half-truths, and we'll never know anyway. There's a lot I don't understand when it comes to the way the Sox choose to operate financially, like why they would give $1M+ to players like Wise when they could pick up a 4th OF at the minimum and put that extra $600K or so into the draft. I just don't see the point in arguing over something like that because none of us know as it is, and there's nowhere I know of where we can go to find this information.

 

The bolded part is what I want to respond to though. The players will go on about collusion, but until the players themselves are willing to redistribute hundreds of millions of dollars in bad contracts to other players who deserve that money, they should shut up. Just about every team in baseball has at least one or two bad deals, with the only exceptions I can think of being the Twins, Pirates, and Orioles. MLB projected a decline in attendance and a huge loss of sponsorship dollars going into the 2009 season, and they were correct, although I'm not sure how close they were to their exact projections. Still, teams can prove they are losing money, and teams can prove they have millions of dollars locked into garbage contracts that could be better spent elsewhere, so I don't know why the players would be shocked to see owners using teams like the Cubs and Tigers as reasons to reassess their approach to the FA market.

 

If there's one thing the players should be extremely pissed about it is the crazy bonuses given to some of these international prospects, plus the posting system, and the FA compensation system. A worldwide draft with a set slotting system, with the ability to trade picks, as well as the complete overhaul of the FA comp process including the removal of the draft pick forfeiture rules, would go a long way toward insuring veteran players a fair shake in FA.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects