Adrian Gonzalez

[Balta1701]

This: C Crap 1B Gonzalez 2B Crap SS Cabrera 3B Crap LF Blanks CF Crap RF Venable/Headley; Latos-Young-Correia-Richard-???

Or this: C Flowers 1B Blanks 2B Retherford SS Cabrera 3B Viciedo LF Headley CF Danks RF Venable; Latos-Hudson-Young-Correia-Richard

And yet, people don't seem to consider what happens to the Sox lineup the same way. Do we not, 1 year out, wind up with that exact same "Crap" at 3 positions?

[G&T]

My surprise isn't that the Padres may be looking to move Adrian. My surprise was that Kenny is going after him. Maybe not surprise as much as excitement, actually...

 

I'm not surprised. The Sox NEED a dependable power bat in the middle of the lineup as much as anyone. They can't afford Holliday. This is the only move that makes sense. I still don't think the Sox will get him, but if the Sox want to win, it's a deal that pretty much has to be made.

 

Long term of course, it could cause a problem.

Edited November 11, 2009 by G&T

[League]

Get it done w/out D2, having him around helps with signing Johnny, and that's something that we need to take care of.

[witesoxfan]

Get it done w/out D2, having him around helps with signing Johnny, and that's something that we need to take care of.

 

Bull, money is what is ultimately going to sign John Danks. You explain that it is part of the game, you show Danks Gonzalez's numbers, you tell him how much his addition helps the club, and I'm pretty sure he is going to understand. The ultimate goal of the game is to win, it's not to leverage players into signing contracts.

 

If they don't give Jordan up because either the Padres don't want him or the Sox really feel that he is that good, then so be it. You don't keep him simply because his brother plays for the team.

[chisoxfan09]

What about if it does not kill us what about:

 

1. Hudson

2. Flowers

3. Viciedo

4. Torres

5. A/AA prospect

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

And yet, people don't seem to consider what happens to the Sox lineup the same way. Do we not, 1 year out, wind up with that exact same "Crap" at 3 positions?

1 year out? Gonzalez would be under contract for 2011 as well. 2012 would be when you'd have to start worrying about who is going to play where, but it's kind of foolish to piss away at a chance to win it all in 2010 and 2011 because you're worried about what the 2012 team would look like.

 

The odds are that at least a couple of these guys won't be better than average players, and we would be running them out there and letting them learn, and taking the hits in the loss column, while we tried to figure out who was going to stick and who would have to be traded. The notion that any of these players would jump into the picture immediately and set the world on fire is foolish, and that's pretty much what would have to happen - and at least a couple times over - for us to be a better team with them than with Adrian Gonzalez.

 

Remember how great Ryan Sweeney was going to be? He had a very promising second half with Oakland last year and his power may finally be coming. But even if Sweeney's power does come next year, that would still be 4 years after he made his MLB debut with us. That's a long time to wait on someone and it's nuts to think these guys will all be ready to contribute seriously to the club even as early as 2012. And Sweeney was a much better prospect than Danks IMO and arguably a better prospect at one point than anyone we have on the farm is right now.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

What about if it does not kill us what about:

 

1. Hudson

2. Flowers

3. Viciedo

4. Torres

5. A/AA prospect

Torres could be a throw-in or something, but I doubt it. The "throw-ins" on a deal like this would probably be guys like Charlie Leesman, Nathan Jones, Miguel Gonzalez, Eduardo Escobar, Santos Rodriguez, etc. They would still be guys who have the potential to be better than average regular players or top-end relievers, not 6th starter candidates. Lucas Harrell or Clevelan Santeliz could definitely interest them IMO, because both are close to ready and both have arms.

[Balta1701]

1 year out? Gonzalez would be under contract for 2011 as well. 2012 would be when you'd have to start worrying about who is going to play where, but it's kind of foolish to piss away at a chance to win it all in 2010 and 2011 because you're worried about what the 2012 team would look like.

Actually I'd disagree there. In 2011, you'd have to worry about who's going to play 1b, who's going to be your closer, who's going to be your first lefty out of the pen.

 

Yeah, we'd have a hell of a lineup, but I think that it would really evaporate rapidly. The issue is not what these guys will do when they come up, the issue is that you can't build a team right now, especially holding a couple of really large contracts, if you don't have counter-balancing young guys to put in.

 

KW's pulled off a miracle here rebuilding the minor leagues to a point where we can legitimately compete for a long time. You trade everything except D2 for Gonzalez, and you're making a run for 1 year before your window closes.

[Marky Mark]

Why isn't Alexei being considered as a possible piece of this trade idea?

[chisoxfan09]

Torres could be a throw-in or something, but I doubt it. The "throw-ins" on a deal like this would probably be guys like Charlie Leesman, Nathan Jones, Miguel Gonzalez, Eduardo Escobar, Santos Rodriguez, etc. They would still be guys who have the potential to be better than average regular players or top-end relievers, not 6th starter candidates. Lucas Harrell or Clevelan Santeliz could definitely interest them IMO, because both are close to ready and both have arms.

 

I have seen some posts on other boards that sacrifice our front four by adding either Floyd or Danks as the centerpiece which to me kills any offer KW makes. Like it has been mentioned you don't subtract from your strength to add a hole to fill. I think the added attendance of fielding a winner for 2010/11 can make up the difference in payroll and add budget for free agents at the end of 2010 for example. It all makes sense from a fan point of view.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Actually I'd disagree there. In 2011, you'd have to worry about who's going to play 1b, who's going to be your closer, who's going to be your first lefty out of the pen.

 

Yeah, we'd have a hell of a lineup, but I think that it would really evaporate rapidly. The issue is not what these guys will do when they come up, the issue is that you can't build a team right now, especially holding a couple of really large contracts, if you don't have counter-balancing young guys to put in.

 

KW's pulled off a miracle here rebuilding the minor leagues to a point where we can legitimately compete for a long time. You trade everything except D2 for Gonzalez, and you're making a run for 1 year before your window closes.

Gonzalez is a 1B so he would be playing 1B.

 

Who is going to be the closer in 2011? I don't even know who is going to be the closer in 2010. It might be Thornton, and if it is, Thornton is locked up for 2011 anyway.

 

The first lefty is our problem this year too, and given the state of bullpens around the league, I imagine that every single season we Sox fans will head into the offseason looking for a reliever or two.

 

Gonzalez is super cheap for the next two seasons. So is Floyd, so is Beckham, so is Alexei, so is Thornton, and hopefully CQ and Danks get locked up at a reasonable price over the offseason to give us cost certainty. It's not like we've got large contracts at every position for the next two years.

 

I disagree wholeheartedly about Kenny rebuilding the minors so we can compete for a long time. We've gotten a TON better but this last draft was still a disappointment IMO overall because we failed to sign Jones and Morgado after dealing Richard and Poreda, and our system is not very deep throughout. Our system is top-heavy and the exciting levels in 2010 will be Kanny and Winston-Salem when you take Charlotte out of the picture. Birmingham will have a couple of guys, like Shirek, Jones and Morel, and probably D2 if he's here on a short stint before moving up, but it's mainly in the lower levels and climbing. Upchurch, Heidenreich, and Holmberg could all be back in rookie ball next season. And really, it's mainly the pitching at the lower levels anyway, because position wise we don't have a ton. There's Mitchell, Escobar, Gonzalez, Thompson, etc. but not a lot. I don't think the Sox are doing backflips over Justin Greene and Tyler Kuhn. Kenny still needs to work the trade market for proven players like he has been doing during his tenure as GM because usually he gets the better end of the deal. And as the farm goes, we still have a lot of work to do.

[witesoxfan]

Because if the Sox are going to win in the next two years, Alexei is probably going to play a large role in that. Subtracting major pieces from the 2010 25 man roster to get Adrian Gonzalez is not the way to do it.

 

That, and I would assume that Padres are looking to get younger. As Kalapse pointed out yesterday or the day before, Alexei Ramirez is 6 months older than Gonzalez. Not that he's old or anything, but he's going to be in his 30s by the time the Padres are ready to compete again and completely out of the picture. Everth Cabrera looks decent too, so they're going to stick with him.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I have seen some posts on other boards that sacrifice our front four by adding either Floyd or Danks as the centerpiece which to me kills any offer KW makes. Like it has been mentioned you don't subtract from your strength to add a hole to fill. I think the added attendance of fielding a winner for 2010/11 can make up the difference in payroll and add budget for free agents at the end of 2010 for example. It all makes sense from a fan point of view.

I agree. Floyd and Danks would be the breaking points for me, not because Gonzalez isn't worth it, but because our rotation is our bread and butter. We don't want to make lateral moves here, we want to improve the MLB team and take us from a strong Division Championship contender to a legit World Series contender, and IMO a bat like Gonzalez does that. I also would neglect to include Danks or Floyd because I can't see another team offering that caliber of player anyway.

 

And I agree with the last part too. The Sox have shown that they'll add payroll for a real winner, so it makes sense to try to win.

[Marky Mark]

Because if the Sox are going to win in the next two years, Alexei is probably going to play a large role in that. Subtracting major pieces from the 2010 25 man roster to get Adrian Gonzalez is not the way to do it.

 

 

Yeah but Adrian Gonzalez would be far more important of a piece than Alexei.....

[prochisox]

Is there any truth to this rumor??

[GreatScott82]

Is there any truth to this rumor??

The Padres are shopping him this winter. . With our lack of a DH and with PK's contract ending after 2010, we would be foolish not to pursue this. Are we rumored to go after him? No. . or at least we didn't hear anything, and usually thats a good thing- because if we hear about it- it usually never happens.

[prochisox]

Right before they went off the air today on the Afternoon Saloon, Harry said that he heard from a source close to the Sox that Hudson is the centerpiece to a possible deal for Gonzalez. FWIW

 

^^^ I meant this.

 

The Padres are shopping him this winter. . With our lack of a DH and with PK's contract ending after 2010, we would be foolish not to pursue this. Are we rumored to go after him? No. . or at least we didn't hear anything, and usually thats a good thing- because if we hear about it- it usually never happens.

 

[witesoxfan]

The Padres are shopping him this winter. . With our lack of a DH and with PK's contract ending after 2010, we would be foolish not to pursue this. Are we rumored to go after him? No. . or at least we didn't hear anything, and usually thats a good thing- because if we hear about it- it usually never happens.

 

can we please outlaw this phrase on Soxtalk? It has been proven wrong time and time again

[Marky Mark]

Who are the Sox using at shortstop then? Are you going to find someone that makes under 1.5 million to do it? What other areas of the team are going to be weakened because you just traded your cheap shortstop?

 

 

I guess you need to think of it like this,

 

What's better,

 

1) Ramirez - Retherford / Nix / IF FA

 

or

 

2) Gonzalez - Ramirez

 

Obviously with choice 2 you also lose several prospects and have Beckham or a FA at SS, but I feel like the difference in #2 is great enough that if you absolutely need to trade Ramirez to gain Gonzalez, you do it.

[southsider2k5]

Right before they went off the air today on the Afternoon Saloon, Harry said that he heard from a source close to the Sox that Hudson is the centerpiece to a possible deal for Gonzalez. FWIW

 

The thing is, many teams could top that.

[Balta1701]

The thing is, many teams could top that.

Depending on what your scouts think of Hudson.

[southsider2k5]

Depending on what your scouts think of Hudson.

 

For the Gonzalez, you would have to think of him at least as a #2, if not a #1.

[Balta1701]

For the Gonzalez, you would have to think of him at least as a #2, if not a #1.

Which may well be how people are starting to see him. Including the Sox.

[prochisox]

I got this from another board:

 

On the way home today, Harry from ESPN 1000 claimed he had an inside source that stated Clayton Richard called Daniel Hudson today to inform him that he was a key piece in a trade the Padres & Sox were working on, so that the Sox would get Adrian Gonzalez.

 

And I'm pissed that the Bulls got raped on that call.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Depending on what your scouts think of Hudson.

And Flowers, too. Don't forget that before the Braves traded Flowers to us for Javy, he was a major piece in their talks for Peavy.

 

This may sound weird coming from me, an admitted anti-sabermetric person, but the new GM in San Diego was probably up to his knees in all those stats, and Flowers and Hudson are both extremely saber-friendly players.