AGon discussion, et. al.

[SoxAce]

Close over a 2 year span in which Cabrera had by far his worst season out of the past 6 and Gonzalez had by far the best year of his career. That's dishonest.

 

I mean it's completely ridiculous in my eyes to not see it. Jesus I never thought of seeing Miggy as underrated when he's just a crazy beast of a hitter who happens to be also a year younger doing this now in the AL and getting better year after year.

Edited November 16, 2009 by SoxAce

[greg775]

We just have to get used to the fact we are going to trade minor leaguers, our top prospects.

It's OK to do that, I just wish we wouldn't hear so much about our prospects, if we're ultimately going to deal them away.

It used to be you didn't hear much about prospects.

Unless they are named Beckham or have Beckham like talent, we apparently will deal our top prospects. Nothing's wrong with that, but it is a shock to the system when we trade guys we hear so much about.

 

also

You said:

Konerko has almost no value at this point, he'll provide you decent production from the first base position (right around league average if you're lucky) while making nearly twice as much as he should."

 

I guess I can buy the "no value" thing if you are talking about money.

But the kind of year he had last year seems "valuable" to me.

He wasn't half bad. It's not like every regular in the majors has more "value" than Konerko.

I mean, what is value?? Does Rios have "value?"

What is AJ's "value?"

Does Granderson still have "value?"

 

Just curious what you mean.

Edited November 16, 2009 by greg775

[BFirebird]

I mean it's completely ridiculous in my eyes to not see it. Jesus I never thought of seeing Miggy as underrated when he's just a crazy beast of a hitter who happens to be also a year younger doing this now in the AL and getting better year after year.

Yeah I am not sure where the Adrian Gonzalez top 5 hitter in the league is coming from. He would be a great addition, but he wouldn't even the top hitter in the AL Central. I would put Miggy, Mauer and Morneau ahead of him.

[daa84]

miguel cabrera has been a better hitter over the course of their two careers yes. that said...what matters most is what they will do over the next 5, not what they did over the last 2 or the last 5 or whatever. Given the fact that Gonzalez is left handed, a GG defender, doesn't have enormous question marks about his conditioning and commitment (ie getting hammered and driving home at 4 in the morning to fight with your wife the dya before your teams biggest game) and has a ridiculously reasonable contract for a couple years ....id prefer gonzalez over cabrera just about any day of the week

 

You have to remember how incredibly talented gonzalez is ...what he is doing now is what everyone expected him to do when Florida made him the #1 overall pick...

 

bottom line is they are both tremendous, tremendous players and are enormous impact MVP type bats in any lineup

[BFirebird]

We just have to get used to the fact we are going to trade minor leaguers, our top prospects.

It's OK to do that, I just wish we wouldn't hear so much about our prospects, if we're ultimately going to deal them away.

It used to be you didn't hear much about prospects.

Unless they are named Beckham or have Beckham like talent, we apparently will deal our top prospects. Nothing's wrong with that, but it is a shock to the system when we trade guys we hear so much about.

 

also

You said:

Konerko has almost no value at this point, he'll provide you decent production from the first base position (right around league average if you're lucky) while making nearly twice as much as he should."

 

I guess I can buy the "no value" thing if you are talking about money.

But the kind of year he had last year seems "valuable" to me.

He wasn't half bad. It's not like every regular in the majors has more "value" than Konerko.

I mean, what is value?? Does Rios have "value?"

What is AJ's "value?"

Does Granderson still have "value?"

 

Just curious what you mean.

I can't talk for Kalapse...but given his salary, age, position and stats comparable to other players at that salary and position, Konerko has little to no value.

[Balta1701]

Yeah I am not sure where the Adrian Gonzalez top 5 hitter in the league is coming from.

2 words; ballpark factor. There were 3 guys in MLB with a higher OPS+ than AGon last year: Mauer, Pujols, and Fielder.

 

Yeah, it's only 1 year, but you can't ignore it. Mauer's only had 1 year above 145 as well.

[ThunderBolt]

Gaslamp Ball is rather bullish on the legitimacy of the Sox.net sources. If only they knew.. http://www.gaslampball.com/2009/11/16/1159...ee-way#comments

[Kalapse]

I can't talk for Kalapse...but given his salary, age, position and stats comparable to other players at that salary and position, Konerko has little to no value.

You did a fine job.

[SoxAce]

miguel cabrera has been a better hitter over the course of their two careers yes. that said...what matters most is what they will do over the next 5, not what they did over the last 2 or the last 5 or whatever. Given the fact that Gonzalez is left handed, a GG defender, doesn't have enormous question marks about his conditioning and commitment (ie getting hammered and driving home at 4 in the morning to fight with your wife the dya before your teams biggest game) and has a ridiculously reasonable contract for a couple years ....id prefer gonzalez over cabrera just about any day of the week

 

You have to remember how incredibly talented gonzalez is ...what he is doing now is what everyone expected him to do when Florida made him the #1 overall pick...

 

bottom line is they are both tremendous, tremendous players and are enormous impact MVP type bats in any lineup

 

Good post and this might be the most reasonable so far, as far as that debate, but I will still disagree with you. Miggy drinks and all that sure (dunno what that has to do with his hitting but I'll play along) but you don't know if he would do the same stuff here, especially considering he and Ozzie are very good friends not to mention Ozzie is alot harder on him than Leyland. Ozzie himself told Miggy to lose the weight last year and Miggy came into Tigers camp in the best shape he was in for like 4 years. That doesn't happen by accident. He said it himself that Ozzie was in his ear that whole offseason about getting in shape. I'll agree though that Adrian does have better defense at this point, but Miggy could improve that (he was playing 3B/corner OF majority of his career) and he's also not been blessed in playing in two horrific hitting parks in Florida and Detroit. I can't even agree with the contract argument as Miggy is basically paid what he's worth into his prime at about 19 mil a year as we can only pray that Adrian would accept anything like that or less when his two years are up. You could potentially say he's a two year rental whereas Miggy is locked up for another 6-7 years at the age of 26 but as of right now.. sure Adrian's contract is much, much better.... as of right now and next year.

Edited November 16, 2009 by SoxAce

[G&T]

Gaslamp Ball is rather bullish on the legitimacy of the Sox.net sources. If only they knew.. http://www.gaslampball.com/2009/11/16/1159...ee-way#comments

 

Bullish in that no one believes it?

[Steve9347]

Come on guys. Miguel Cabrera's OPS at home has actually been much higher than on the road. Sure, Comerica isn't a hitter's paradise, but comparing it to Petco is a f***ing joke.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Steve9347

[Quin]

I guess I'm the one person in Soxdom that despises giving up Paulie. Seriously, is there anything that the Angels can toss in that we can't match from our own system? Plus, Paulie would be a darn good DH, since he'd stay healthy, I could see him hitting .280, 30 HR, 100 RBI's easy as a full time DH.

 

If theres anyway to cut out the Angels, do it Kenny. Keep Paulie.

 

(Note: Bias coming from fact I'm wearing my Paulie shirt)

[Princess Dye]

The truth is we dont know what AG will be like outside Petco. We can guess but not be sure. Hopefully we find out next year what he's like in a park like...say...US Cellular

[ThunderBolt]

I guess I'm the one person in Soxdom that despises giving up Paulie. Seriously, is there anything that the Angels can toss in that we can't match from our own system? Plus, Paulie would be a darn good DH, since he'd stay healthy, I could see him hitting .280, 30 HR, 100 RBI's easy as a full time DH.

 

If theres anyway to cut out the Angels, do it Kenny. Keep Paulie.

 

(Note: Bias coming from fact I'm wearing my Paulie shirt)

Paulie is about done though. Anything value we can get from him at this point needs to be taken. Especially, if trading him is the means to the incredible end that is A-Gone.

[Rowand44]

We just have to get used to the fact we are going to trade minor leaguers, our top prospects.

It's OK to do that, I just wish we wouldn't hear so much about our prospects, if we're ultimately going to deal them away.

It used to be you didn't hear much about prospects.

Unless they are named Beckham or have Beckham like talent, we apparently will deal our top prospects. Nothing's wrong with that, but it is a shock to the system when we trade guys we hear so much about.

Um, really?

 

Anywho, if we needed to trade both Huddy and Flowers to get AGon, I'd do it in a heartbeat as long as we're shedding Pauly's contract as well. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of both Dan and Tyler(especially Hudson) but if you can add Gonzalez and give Kenny some payroll flexibility, you'd really have a shot at something special this season. Like real special.

[SoxAce]

Come on guys. Miguel Cabrera's OPS at home has actually been much higher than on the road. Sure, Comerica isn't a hitter's paradise, but comparing it to Petco is a f***ing joke.

 

I just hope Adrian does this consistently then I can see it and hopefully isn't a one year thing. Miggy has put up the numbers his entire career (also playing in the NL) and has gotten better considerably making the jump to the AL overall. If we net Adrian.. he'll already have an advantage that Miggy probably will never have.. hitting in a hitter's park. I just find it amazing that Miggy is damn near a full year younger and still isn't even gonna reach his prime yet till next season as far as hitters.

Edited November 16, 2009 by SoxAce

[Princess Dye]

I guess I'm the one person in Soxdom that despises giving up Paulie. Seriously, is there anything that the Angels can toss in that we can't match from our own system? Plus, Paulie would be a darn good DH, since he'd stay healthy, I could see him hitting .280, 30 HR, 100 RBI's easy as a full time DH.

 

If theres anyway to cut out the Angels, do it Kenny. Keep Paulie.

 

(Note: Bias coming from fact I'm wearing my Paulie shirt)

 

I think w/o Beckham included we still have the reserves to get it done for AG. It's just a matter of whether or not KW wants to lose the two big prospects and a starter. I would think that'd be a little too much......but we'd be adding a bunch of power to the lineup and still have three above avg starters.

 

I would hope that if we're giving SD the kitchen sink, they'd be throwing in some veteran relief (that, as a rebuilding team, they should be willing to part with)

[GreatScott82]

This potential deal makes sense on so many different levels. Mike Scioscia and PK have a relationship dating back to their Dodger days, the Angels tried to sign him back before the 06 campaign. LA is the one place PK would waive his no trade clause. For the Padres, they would have more young talent to work with, most young and rebuilding teams would be drooling. As far as the Sox go, they would save money. Key phrase there- save money. (Use that money toward a leadoff hitter and DH) They would get arguably one of the best left handed power hitters in the game and be in position to not only win the central- but to make a run at the whole enchalata!

[SoxFan562004]

I am a huge fan of PK and really like the future potential of Hudson and Flowers, but if those guys leaving equal Gonzalez, then I am down for it.

 

It will take nothing away from what Paulie did for this franchise and team, but Gonzalez at 1st makes this team a lot better

[Princess Dye]

I am a huge fan of PK and really like the future potential of Hudson and Flowers, but if those guys leaving equal Gonzalez, then I am down for it.

 

It will take nothing away from what Paulie did for this franchise and team, but Gonzalez at 1st makes this team a lot better

 

Also, as popular as Paulie is around here, we have to remember how utterly horrible his slumps are. And long lasting

[Balta1701]

I just hope Adrian does this consistently then I can see it and hopefully isn't a one year thing. Miggy has put up the numbers his entire career (also playing in the NL) and has gotten better considerably making the jump to the AL overall. If we net Adrian.. he'll already have an advantage that Miggy probably will never have.. hitting in a hitter's park. I just find it amazing that Miggy is damn near a full year younger and still isn't even gonna reach his prime yet till next season as far as hitters.

Are you sure about that? His OPS/OPS+ in both years in the AL are lower than they were the 3 previous seasons in FL.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Good post and this might be the most reasonable so far, as far as that debate, but I will still disagree with you. Miggy drinks and all that sure (dunno what that has to do with his hitting but I'll play along) but you don't know if he would do the same stuff here, especially considering he and Ozzie are very good friends not to mention Ozzie is alot harder on him than Leyland. Ozzie himself told Miggy to lose the weight last year and Miggy came into Tigers camp in the best shape he was in for like 4 years. That doesn't happen by accident. He said it himself that Ozzie was in his ear that whole offseason about getting in shape. I'll agree though that Adrian does have better defense at this point, but Miggy could improve that (he was playing 3B/corner OF majority of his career) and he's also not been blessed in playing in two horrific hitting parks in Florida and Detroit. I can't even agree with the contract argument as Miggy is basically paid what he's worth into his prime at about 19 mil a year as we can only pray that Adrian would accept anything like that or less when his two years are up. You could potentially say he's a two year rental whereas Miggy is locked up for another 6-7 years at the age of 26 but as of right now.. sure Adrian's contract is much, much better.... as of right now and next year.

Isn't that pretty much how everyone is viewing Adrian, as a 2 year player? I also dislike the term "rental" here. Would you call a FA on a 2-year deal a "rental?" Probably not.

 

Cabrera is paid what he's worth, but it's pretty unreasonable to talk about the length of Cabrera's contract at those figures as a good thing for a team like the Sox. I don't expect the Sox to get any crazier than Peavy's deal, and if we do get Adrian, I'm not going to expect the Sox to lock him up for the long haul.

[SoxAce]

Are you sure about that? His OPS/OPS+ in both years in the AL are lower than they were the 3 previous seasons in FL.

 

Uh.. yea

 

Year 1 in AL: 129 OPS+

Year 2 AL: 142 OPS+

 

He's gotten better adjusting to the AL. I think you misread what I was saying. The AL is the superior league to the NL and he had to adjust in year 1, and made the adjustment in year 2. Hell his first year in the AL.. that is some (or a good number of) players' BEST years which is just scary.

Edited November 16, 2009 by SoxAce

[Steve9347]

Are you sure about that? His OPS/OPS+ in both years in the AL are lower than they were the 3 previous seasons in FL.

Look to OPS+.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Steve9347

[nickofypres]

I'm lazy, is there any more info about this, or it is speculation from that one sites information?