AGon discussion, et. al.

[bmags]

I'm pretty sure I've yelled this before. Would never call anybody up. I'm pretty sure I would have rather had a broomstick hit instead of Lillibridge this year though. Especially one of those magic brooms from fantasia.

[Ranger]

I'm pretty sure I've yelled this before. Would never call anybody up. I'm pretty sure I would have rather had a broomstick hit instead of Lillibridge this year though. Especially one of those magic brooms from fantasia.

 

 

I would think the magic broomstick is capable of quite a bit, wouldn't you?

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I think one of my favorite classics is the following exchange:

 

caller: "Why did Ozzie bring in _______ to pitch in the 8th."

me: "OK. Who would you rather have out there?"

caller: "Anybody!"

me: "Such as?"

caller: "It doesn't matter! ANYBODY!"

 

No real better solution, just "somebody else" should have been used. The old anybody-is-better-than-what-we-have/used argument. You can also replace the first line in that exchange with "They need to send ______'s ass down to Charlotte and bring up somebody else." Those two calls are interchangeable. It's the notion that it can't any worse than it is currently. But what they don't understand is that, yes, it most certainly could always be worse.

My favorite argument of yours is when you say that Linebrink needs to be out there even though he's garbage because the team can't win unless he improves, and he can't improve if he's not playing. It made so much sense to keep letting him blow important games with the Sox when they could have sent him down to work on things in Charlotte and at least tried somebody else.

 

But yeah, I guess it would be pretty hard for anyone like Santeliz, Link, Nunez, Harrell, Hernandez, Rodriguez, etc. to come up and post better numbers than what Linebrink put up in the second half, which in 23.1IP was an ERA of 8.49 with a 2.19 WHIP and a .377/.433/.651/1.084 line against - which is just a hair less in OPS than what Albert Pujols produced against the entire NL last season.

 

Saying that it would be difficult for a rookie to come up and become a major contributor is one thing, but to intimate that we had no one in the system last year who even as a rookie would have been a better bet than Linebrink was at that point is another. Even bringing up a kid who could have put up an ERA of 6 with a WHIP under 2 and an OPSA under 1.000 would have been an improvement, and at least at that point you're giving someone else a shot to show if he can stick or not. You know why Linebrink kept getting run out there just as well as every other Sox fan on this forum does, and it's because of his contract. The Sox weren't going to MacDougalize him with 2+ years and $10.5M+ remaining on his deal. If Scott Linebrink had been a pre-arb player like Boone Logan was, Ozzie would have reamed his ass and sent him down.

[bmags]

I would think the magic broomstick is capable of quite a bit, wouldn't you?

 

Well it certainly seemed to be able to take care of the "clean-up" spot. god. Kill me now.

[knightni]

Well it certainly seemed to be able to take care of the "clean-up" spot. god. Kill me now.

His cousin is in the bullpen pitching long relief. That's right, mop-up duty.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Thank you.

 

This post needs to be bookmarked and bumped, often.

 

And this is coming from someone who hates it when that happens.

So it never pissed you off when Ozzie would go to Linebrink in a game that we actually had a shot at winning when there were other options in the bullpen? And it really doesn't matter what the other options were since Linebrink in the second half last year was the worst pitcher we had on our team. Even f***ing Randy Williams was better against righties than Linebrink was in the second half, and by quite a bit.

[southsider2k5]

So it never pissed you off when Ozzie would go to Linebrink in a game that we actually had a shot at winning when there were other options in the bullpen? And it really doesn't matter what the other options were since Linebrink in the second half last year was the worst pitcher we had on our team. Even f***ing Randy Williams was better against righties than Linebrink was in the second half, and by quite a bit.

 

What other options? This argument is terrible. We had pretty much no one in the pen who could get outs consistently, except for one, maybe two guys. Since you can't pitch the same two relievers everyday, it makes sense that you try to get the guy you are paying to be your set up man, back on track. You can argue that a garbage guy like Williams would be better, but when you look at this stats, you have to realize that most of his outings were when Ozzie was setting him up in much less stressful situations, and he STILL sucked. Linebrink was going out there in much tougher spots.

[GREEDY]

I have decided that the only way this trade is even plausible is if it included Danks squared.

 

Any chance KW/JR have some policy and or belief about only having long-term commitments to three starting pitchers at a time?

[soxfan3530]

Any upadte on this rumor? I am out of town and don't want to read through 50 plus pages. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

What other options? This argument is terrible. We had pretty much no one in the pen who could get outs consistently, except for one, maybe two guys. Since you can't pitch the same two relievers everyday, it makes sense that you try to get the guy you are paying to be your set up man, back on track. You can argue that a garbage guy like Williams would be better, but when you look at this stats, you have to realize that most of his outings were when Ozzie was setting him up in much less stressful situations, and he STILL sucked. Linebrink was going out there in much tougher spots.

Second half numbers for relievers and extra pitchers:

Linebrink: 23.1 IP 8.49 ERA 2.186 WHIP .377/.433/.651/1.084

Williams: 17.2 IP 4.58 ERA 1.42 WHIP .206/.354/.333/.688; .269/.444/.423/.868 vs. RH only

Dotel: 27.2 IP 3.25 ERA 1.373 WHIP .282/.372/.482/.854

Pena: 34 IP 3.44 ERA 1.324 WHIP .268/.306/.420/.726

Thornton: 36 IP 3.00 ERA 1.056 WHIP .222/.269/.311/.580

Jenks: 22.1 IP 4.03 ERA 1.522 WHIP .279/.354/.442/.795

Carrasco: 38.2 IP 3.72 ERA 1.345 WHIP .279/.315/.370/.685

Nunez: 5.2 IP 9.53 ERA 2.118 WHIP .370/.414/.630/1.043

Torres: 28.1 IP 6.04 ERA 1.659 WHIP .286/.386/.476 /.862

Hudson: 18.2 IP 3.38 ERA 1.339 WHIP .225/.317/.394/.711

 

The only person even close to Linebrink Planet as far as sucktitude was Jhonny Nunez in ONLY 5.2 IP, and I have no reason to believe Nunez in more innings would have done as bad or worse since the sample size is so small and Nunez does have talent. Everyone else aside from Nunez was considerably better than Linebrink, again, even Williams vs. RH.

 

In fact, check out the numbers the 2007 bullpen staff put up and you find several players who had their asses shipped to Triple-A shortly afterwards just like what would have been the case with Linebrink had he not been owed so much f***ing money. This pissed off the fans because they - and rightfully so - do NOT agree with the idea of s***ty player + owed lots of money = playing time in a division race operating philosophy. The fact that he's here and he's joking about these supposedly stupid callers pisses me off, because they're not stupid, they're actually very observant Sox fans who want the same treatment across the board for every s***ty player, cheap contract or not.

 

Also on your comment about Linebrink coming in regularly in more stressful situations...

 

In August and September, Linebrink made 19 appearances. I don't know what you'd define as a stressful situation, but of those 19 appearances, 11 were during games where there was a 2-run swing in the score or less, and in that span he gave up 12 earned runs. Is that supposed to be the norm or something? Also, of those remaining 8 appearances, 6 were in games with a 4-run or greater swing, including 4 with a 6+ swing. In those other 8 appearances Linebrink allowed 7 ER. In case you were also wondering about innings, on only two of those occasions in August and September he worked 1.2 IP, plus once he worked 1.1 IP, but every other outing he had was for an inning or less. So stressful or non-stressful, Linebrink's second half was one of the worst halves you'll see a reliever on this team produce. If this had been anyone else making less money that guy would have been gone.

 

In short, you're making excuses to fit Rongey's garbage argument. Linebrink sucked ass and was by a wide margin the worst pitcher on our team in the second half yet we ran him out there. Jose Contreras' 2nd half numbers were actually quite a bit better than Linebrink's numbers as well. There was no excuse for running Linebrink out there and I see no reason to believe why any of those names I mentioned in the previous post could not have done better.

[qwerty]

Second half numbers for relievers and extra pitchers:

Linebrink: 23.1 IP 8.49 ERA 2.186 WHIP .377/.433/.651/1.084

Williams: 17.2 IP 4.58 ERA 1.42 WHIP .206/.354/.333/.688; .269/.444/.423/.868 vs. RH only

Dotel: 27.2 IP 3.25 ERA 1.373 WHIP .282/.372/.482/.854

Pena: 34 IP 3.44 ERA 1.324 WHIP .268/.306/.420/.726

Thornton: 36 IP 3.00 ERA 1.056 WHIP .222/.269/.311/.580

Jenks: 22.1 IP 4.03 ERA 1.522 WHIP .279/.354/.442/.795

Carrasco: 38.2 IP 3.72 ERA 1.345 WHIP .279/.315/.370/.685

Nunez: 5.2 IP 9.53 ERA 2.118 WHIP .370/.414/.630/1.043

Torres: 28.1 IP 6.04 ERA 1.659 WHIP .286/.386/.476 /.862

Hudson: 18.2 IP 3.38 ERA 1.339 WHIP .225/.317/.394/.711

 

The only person even close to Linebrink Planet as far as sucktitude was Jhonny Nunez in ONLY 5.2 IP, and I have no reason to believe Nunez in more innings would have done as bad or worse since the sample size is so small and Nunez does have talent. Everyone else aside from Nunez was considerably better than Linebrink, again, even Williams vs. RH.

 

In fact, check out the numbers the 2007 bullpen staff put up and you find several players who had their asses shipped to Triple-A shortly afterwards just like what would have been the case with Linebrink had he not been owed so much f***ing money. This pissed off the fans because they - and rightfully so - do NOT agree with the idea of s***ty player + owed lots of money = playing time in a division race operating philosophy. The fact that he's here and he's joking about these supposedly stupid callers pisses me off, because they're not stupid, they're actually very observant Sox fans who want the same treatment across the board for every s***ty player, cheap contract or not.

 

Also on your comment about Linebrink coming in regularly in more stressful situations...

 

In August and September, Linebrink made 19 appearances. I don't know what you'd define as a stressful situation, but of those 19 appearances, 11 were during games where there was a 2-run swing in the score or less, and in that span he gave up 12 earned runs. Is that supposed to be the norm or something? Also, of those remaining 8 appearances, 6 were in games with a 4-run or greater swing, including 4 with a 6+ swing. In those other 8 appearances Linebrink allowed 7 ER. In case you were also wondering about innings, on only two of those occasions in August and September he worked 1.2 IP, plus once he worked 1.1 IP, but every other outing he had was for an inning or less. So stressful or non-stressful, Linebrink's second half was one of the worst halves you'll see a reliever on this team produce. If this had been anyone else making less money that guy would have been gone.

 

In short, you're making excuses to fit Rongey's garbage argument. Linebrink sucked ass and was by a wide margin the worst pitcher on our team in the second half yet we ran him out there. Jose Contreras' 2nd half numbers were actually quite a bit better than Linebrink's numbers as well. There was no excuse for running Linebrink out there and I see no reason to believe why any of those names I mentioned in the previous post could not have done better.

 

You pretty much answered the reason yourself as to why linebrink was trotted out there.

 

It's really as simple as coming down to the money. The excuse is the sox feel linebrink makes too much money to part ways with, whether you, myself, or anyone else agrees with their thought process. Afterall linebrink did make 4.5 last season with an additional 10.5 coming his way the next two seasons. There is no chance they dump him until next off-season, and that is still barring a significant increase in production. For better or worse, linebrink is still gonna get the ball in a white sox uniform.

 

The linebrink signing was bad from the get go, and was quite unlike the sox, they sure as hell stumped me at the time.

Edited November 23, 2009 by qwerty

[DBAHO]

You pretty much answered the reason yourself as to why linebrink was trotted out there.

 

It's really as simple as coming down to the money. The excuse is the sox feel linebrink makes too much money to part ways with, whether you, myself, or anyone else agrees with their thought process. Afterall linebrink did make 4.5 last season with an additional 11.5 coming his way the next two seasons. There is no chance they dump him until next off-season, and that is still barring a significant increase in production. For better or worse, linebrink is still gonna get the ball in a white sox uniform.

 

The linebrink signing was bad from the get go, and was quite unlike the sox, they sure as hell stumped me at the time.

It was basically coming off the end of 2007 when our bullpen was probably in worse shape that it is now. I thought the Dotel signing for 2 years was a pretty good deal for both sides, but giving 4 years to Linebrink was just far too risky, as he wasn't a good pitcher outside of PETCO back in his Padre days, although I remember KW saying something to the thought of his power sinker would fit in well with the Sox or something like that.

[SoxAce]

It was basically coming off the end of 2007 when our bullpen was probably in worse shape that it is now. I thought the Dotel signing for 2 years was a pretty good deal for both sides, but giving 4 years to Linebrink was just far too risky, as he wasn't a good pitcher outside of PETCO back in his Padre days, although I remember KW saying something to the thought of his power sinker would fit in well with the Sox or something like that.

 

The no trade clause is what really puzzled me.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

You pretty much answered the reason yourself as to why linebrink was trotted out there.

 

It's really as simple as coming down to the money. The excuse is the sox feel linebrink makes too much money to part ways with, whether you, myself, or anyone else agrees with their thought process. Afterall linebrink did make 4.5 last season with an additional 11.5 coming his way the next two seasons. There is no chance they dump him until next off-season, and that is still barring a significant increase in production. For better or worse, linebrink is still gonna get the ball in a white sox uniform.

 

The linebrink signing was bad from the get go, and was quite unlike the sox, they sure as hell stumped me at the time.

I agree, it was because of money owed, that's my point. The Sox have that opinion, but it still isn't defensible IMO because a sunk cost is a sunk cost. However, Ranger is on here reiterating the same things he said about Linebrink on the radio this last year, which is that Linebrink was playing because there was no one else to go to, and because there was no reason to expect prospects to perform better, and because in order for the Sox to have won they would have needed Linebrink to be good (very untrue), etc. I have a problem with that because it's wrong and a cop-out. The fans themselves understand that it's bulls*** to play a guy who isn't any good when you have better options available, no matter what the money situation is with that player, and if you're a radio host covering the team then you should be ballsy enough to admit that. Or even if you don't want to admit that over the air, at least don't come onto a Sox fan forum and chastise the fans over it again. He hasn't mentioned Linebrink specifically, but I know the callers he's alluding to because I heard many of them, and his responses were typically as ridiculous as the ones in this thread.

 

But I do agree with you though, for better or worse the Sox are going to keep sending Linebrink out there, at least through 2010.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

The no trade clause is what really puzzled me.

Meh, if he was any good the NTC wouldn't have been a problem. Everyone needs relievers and there has to be another team out of 29 others that he would accept a deal to.

[qwerty]

I agree, it was because of money owed, that's my point. The Sox have that opinion, but it still isn't defensible IMO because a sunk cost is a sunk cost. However, Ranger is on here reiterating the same things he said about Linebrink on the radio this last year, which is that Linebrink was playing because there was no one else to go to, and because there was no reason to expect prospects to perform better, and because in order for the Sox to have won they would have needed Linebrink to be good (very untrue), etc. I have a problem with that because it's wrong and a cop-out. The fans themselves understand that it's bulls*** to play a guy who isn't any good when you have better options available, no matter what the money situation is with that player, and if you're a radio host covering the team then you should be ballsy enough to admit that. Or even if you don't want to admit that over the air, at least don't come onto a Sox fan forum and chastise the fans over it again. He hasn't mentioned Linebrink specifically, but I know the callers he's alluding to because I heard many of them, and his responses were typically as ridiculous as the ones in this thread.

 

But I do agree with you though, for better or worse the Sox are going to keep sending Linebrink out there, at least through 2010.

 

From our view point, sure, a sunk cost is a sunk cost. But at the end of the day it's not our money to play with, it's theirs.

 

It may be bulls*** like you say, but that is how the business of baseball is generallyrun, and the sox especially. You stick with the guy making the big bucks, unless that particular team is blown away by the talent of one of their up-and-comers, or can find a suitor to dump their garbage off on. It's just not as easy as it sounds. If the average fan can realize that linebrink is not the linebrink of yesteryear... what about all the higher ups behind the scenes around the league, not to mention the general managers? The sox do not have a stud in the wings and there is essentially no chance we could ever move him via a trade, therefore, linebrink. I feel the sox do not have much faith in their arms in the minors, because realistically, it's pretty bleak in regards to major league talent. None of them should be relied on to contribute in the slightest, other than hudson, who i feel could strive in the pen.

 

There is no reason to beat a dead horse. It's as simple they are not gonna release him, pay him the money he is owed, and then watch someone who is likely a 4A pitcher (nunez, torres, williams, etc) come up and put up an era hovering around five with bad peripherals all around. If it were as simple as not having to pay linebrink a dime once released you may have a legitimate case, until then, not so much. b****ing and moaning about the linebrink situation will not get us anywhere (the fan base)... it is what it is. It's time to move on and for kw to make the other spots in the just pen that much stronger.

Edited November 23, 2009 by qwerty

[beck72]

From our view point, sure, a sunk cost is a sunk cost. But at the end of the day it's not our money to play with, it's theirs.

 

It may be bulls*** like you say, but that is how the business of baseball is generallyrun, and the sox especially. You stick with the guy making the big bucks, unless that particular team is blown away by the talent of one of their up-and-comers, or can find a suitor to dump their garbage off on. It's just not as easy as it sounds. If the average fan can realize that linebrink is not the linebrink of yesteryear... what about all the higher ups behind the scenes around the league, not to mention the general managers? The sox do not have a stud in the wings and there is essentially no chance we could ever move him via a trade, therefore, linebrink. I feel the sox do not have much faith in their arms in the minors, because realistically, it's pretty bleak in regards to major league talent. None of them should be relied on to contribute in the slightest, other than hudson, who i feel could strive in the pen.

 

There is no reason to beat a dead horse. It's as simple they are not gonna release him, pay him the money he is owed, and then watch someone who is likely a 4A pitcher (nunez, torres, williams, etc) come up and put up an era hovering around five with bad peripherals all around. If it were as simple as not having to pay linebrink a dime once released you may have a legitimate case, until then, not so much. b****ing and moaning about the linebrink situation will not get us anywhere (the fan base)... it is what it is. It's time to move on and for kw to make the other spots in the just pen that much stronger.

Well said.

 

One thing I can say for Kenny, he hasn't made many bad contract deals that are eating teams up, with unmovable players who teams would love to get rid of. Even Tampa got into the act with the Burrell signing. Linebrink is one of the few for the sox.

 

Another thing is the weak minor league relievers. This is where many teams should be building a majority of their pen from. Yet this has been a huge letdown in recent years. Few arms have helped at the major league level. The sox callups have done nothing. Hudson, IMO, should be in set up to start 2010. The sox minor league talent has started to to improve with better drafts. Hopefully an arm or two will be able to help later in 2010 because, like you said, only hudson seems ready.

 

Brandon Hynick from Col. is a guy who might stick in the pen, though. He doesn't have great stuff. But he has control and has 3 decent pitches, with one being an out pitch [his split finger].

Edited November 23, 2009 by beck72

[chisox2334]

a poster on southsidesox.com met Jake peavy over the weekend and was told from peavy that the w sox are trying to get A. gonzo. The article is up there with pictures of him and jake peavy over the weekend.

[Princess Dye]

a poster on southsidesox.com met Jake peavy over the weekend and was told from peavy that the w sox are trying to get A. gonzo. The article is up there with pictures of him and jake peavy over the weekend.

 

 

I wonder if what he saw at the bar was a beer-fueled apparition. kind of like beer goggles but they make you see staff aces instead of more attractive women

[NorthSideSox72]

a poster on southsidesox.com met Jake peavy over the weekend and was told from peavy that the w sox are trying to get A. gonzo. The article is up there with pictures of him and jake peavy over the weekend.

Wait a second... didn't that same site ridicule SoxTalk mentioning the possibility based on non-journalistic sources?

[chisox2334]

not everyone on that website ridicules soxnet

[southsider2k5]

Wait a second... didn't that same site ridicule SoxTalk mentioning the possibility based on non-journalistic sources?

 

I am waiting to see if Joe Cowley tells me if it is OK or not...

[southsider2k5]

not everyone on that website ridicules soxnet

 

Sure, then there are the people who take materials from Soxnet...

[chisox2334]

never said that dosen't happened either. I just go to all the w sox to find out anything on rumors etc. dealing with the White sox.

[SoxAce]

a poster on southsidesox.com met Jake peavy over the weekend and was told from peavy that the w sox are trying to get A. gonzo. The article is up there with pictures of him and jake peavy over the weekend.

 

Here is it for the lazy posters.

 

http://www.southsidesox.com/2009/11/23/117...peavy#storyjump

 

Hey Cowley. Even Jake Peavy said it.