AGon discussion, et. al.

[Brian]

Adrian Gonzalez has a neatly trimmed goatee....

 

That should get things back on track.

[iamshack]

Adrian Gonzalez has a neatly trimmed goatee....

 

That should get things back on track.

His wife is really hot, too.

[Quin]

His wife is really hot, too.

 

More reason we need him, to add to the Hot Sox Wives.

[iamshack]

More reason we need him, to add to the Hot Sox Wives.

We need to replace Ms. Podsednik...

[ptatc]

We need to replace Ms. Podsednik...

 

No one can replace her....she should have a permanent life size likeness of her in that spot they sit behind home plate.

 

But Mrs. Gonzalez wouldn't be a bad addition.

[iamshack]

No one can replace her....she should have a permanent life size likeness of her in that spot they sit behind home plate.

 

But Mrs. Gonzalez wouldn't be a bad addition.

I could use Mrs. Podsednik to cheer me up after that Bears game...

[macsandz]

Right. And he is only going to be 23 when the season starts, so there is probably more development time to be had. We'll see what happens in the spring. But I also wouldn't be shocked if he gets dealt.

 

What's up with White Sox Weekly? No show recently?

[southsider2k5]

That's a shame. Hudson could be a very effective option logging some important innings for the Sox next year. Clearly, his future is as a starter, but with no room in the rotation right now, and the Sox looking to be contenders, I think it makes all of the sense in the world to have your 12 best pitchers on the 25 man roster.

 

Not really. Stunting a guy like Hudson could mean the next Andy Sisco. It would have been interesting to see what happened to him had he not been a rule V pick and allowed to throw 150 IP a year as a minor league starter.

[Ranger]

Fine Chris. Linebrink has now failed to perform up to the standards required of him for 4 of the last second halves due to various reasons. A bad outing is acceptable. A bad weekend happens from time to time. Maybe even a bad week, but don't make a habit of them. We're talking bad MONTHS here. There are only 6 in the entire season. Having an entire bad MONTH four consecutive years in a row is unacceptable for a major league reliever, especially one such as he who is supposed to be an elite setup man.

 

The point is, this is in no way surprising at this point. The organization should not have been shocked. Were you shocked when it happened? I wasn't. And by the 10th bad outing in 13 or whatever it was, I was pretty sure what we were going to be getting from the guy.

 

Explain to me the difference between requiring a guy to come up and pitch because a guy is injured and coming up and replacing a guy because that guy sucks. This is the major leagues. This is not the little league, or the tee ball league, or the American Legion league, or your neighborhood softball league. Adult men get paid millions of dollars because their teams depend on them to produce. And when you stop producing, you get benched, sent down, cut, or used in non-pivotal situations. I could care less if Scott's feelings are hurt, or if a AA or AAA pitcher has to come up and fill in as best he can for whatever period of time. If he gets sent down because he failed to do his job, fine. If he gets sent down because they believe Linebrink can return effectively, fine. I'm not going to worry about feelings at this level.

 

This league is about results. Perhaps that's one of the reasons why we failed last year.

 

As for how to handle veteran and minor league players, have we not been discussing that for almost this entire thread? I've said over and over and over and over and over again that veteran players should get opportunities at redemption, because their track record affords them that. I have conceded time and time and time again that Ozzie was right to stick with Linebrink up to a point. When it became INCREDIBLY CLEAR that Linebrink was going to be nothing but a big bag of suck, it is time to stop being stupid about it. I said this in my first post on this topic, and I'll repeat it again: It's one thing to try and recover performance from an asset because you have money invested; it's quite another to continue to keep running out a guy that is destined to fail and expecting different results.

 

Not only are you spending the money on the guy in that situation, but you are compounding your error by spending the money on the guy to give you horrendous innings.

 

It's the definition of insanity...

 

Really? Have you actually been paying attention to relief pitchers around baseball? Relievers, even really good ones, will have bad months. And sometimes even have them at least once a year. It's kind of the nature of relief pitchers.

 

Again, if you noticed, the Sox gave Linerbink ample time last season to make a turnaround, and it did not happen. And when it did not happen, they appropriately altered his duties. So you'rs basically saying that the Sox should have cut their losses with Konerko in 2008? Because it was the same situation where fans were absolutely certain he was done. Turns out he was not.

 

What's up with White Sox Weekly? No show recently?

 

Yeah, we were on yesterday. It's been random times during the offseason because we have football on and what not. Usually we're on around noon, give or take an hour.

[iamshack]

Really? Have you actually been paying attention to relief pitchers around baseball? Relievers, even really good ones, will have bad months. And sometimes even have them at least once a year. It's kind of the nature of relief pitchers.

 

Again, if you noticed, the Sox gave Linerbink ample time last season to make a turnaround, and it did not happen. And when it did not happen, they appropriately altered his duties. So you'rs basically saying that the Sox should have cut their losses with Konerko in 2008? Because it was the same situation where fans were absolutely certain he was done. Turns out he was not.

 

I'd love to see the list of other elite setup men that have had at least 1 bad month in each of the last several seasons.

 

As for Konerko, no, I wouldn't have cut my losses. PK had 4 consecutive very good seasons in a row prior to 08'. It was also clear he was dealing with injuries all year, most importantly being his jammed thumb. It's fairly obvious that PK is winding down relative to other first basemen throughout the league, but he was nowhere near as horrendous in 08' as Scott Linebrink has been for long stretches over the past several years.

 

 

[Ranger]

I'd love to see the list of other elite setup men that have had at least 1 bad month in each of the last several seasons.

 

As for Konerko, no, I wouldn't have cut my losses. PK had 4 consecutive very good seasons in a row prior to 08'. It was also clear he was dealing with injuries all year, most importantly being his jammed thumb. It's fairly obvious that PK is winding down relative to other first basemen throughout the league, but he was nowhere near as horrendous in 08' as Scott Linebrink has been for long stretches over the past several years.

 

 

Well obviously this debate will go nowhere. But, Konerko did not a have a "very good" season (by his standards) in 2007. He had two really good months in the middle sandwiched by a really poor start and a slow finish.

 

I think you'd agree that Scott Shields was a pretty good setup guy at one time. Had a fairly rough August (by his standards) in 2006, had TERRIBLE months (by anyone's standards) in August and September of 2007, but rebounded in 2008 with a nice year. When an ERA will from a 1.98 one month to a 4.90 or worse the following month, there is evidence that relievers fluctuate, not just from year-to-year, but month-to-month as well. Shields was a pretty damn good setup man before the knee injury. Maybe the best in the AL. And he was capable of poor stretches. Fernando had a pretty good yearbut had two months this past season where he was attrocious. Hideki Okajima had months where his ERA was 0.00, 1.64, and 2.08. He also had a 7.36 in September. That's not good. It just simply isn't uncommon for good relievers to have ups and downs throughout the year and this is nothing new.

[iamshack]

Well obviously this debate will go nowhere. But, Konerko did not a have a "very good" season (by his standards) in 2007. He had two really good months in the middle sandwiched by a really poor start and a slow finish.

 

I think you'd agree that Scott Shields was a pretty good setup guy at one time. Had a fairly rough August (by his standards) in 2006, had TERRIBLE months (by anyone's standards) in August and September of 2007, but rebounded in 2008 with a nice year. When an ERA will from a 1.98 one month to a 4.90 or worse the following month, there is evidence that relievers fluctuate, not just from year-to-year, but month-to-month as well. Shields was a pretty damn good setup man before the knee injury. Maybe the best in the AL. And he was capable of poor stretches. Fernando had a pretty good yearbut had two months this past season where he was attrocious. Hideki Okajima had months where his ERA was 0.00, 1.64, and 2.08. He also had a 7.36 in September. That's not good. It just simply isn't uncommon for good relievers to have ups and downs throughout the year and this is nothing new.

Mr. Rongey, I am certainly not here to dispute the fact that relievers can be extremely inconsistent. My contention is simply that Linebrink has been far more inconsistent than just about any established mlb reliever/setup man over the course of the last 4 years.

 

Honestly, this debate is tired. Let's agree to disagree and move on. No one is enjoying reading this anymore anyways.

 

No hard feelings, Mr. Rongey.

[Quin]

I want Shack to call into White Sox Weekly and this debate to happen again, it'd be radio gold.

[eickevinmorris]

Not really. Stunting a guy like Hudson could mean the next Andy Sisco. It would have been interesting to see what happened to him had he not been a rule V pick and allowed to throw 150 IP a year as a minor league starter.

Or easing him into MLB could mean the next Mark Buehrle or Adam Wainwright.

[balfanman]

I don't debate that his long-term future is that of a starter. But assuming everybody is healthy (obviously Freddy is the one to worry about the most as far as health goes), there's not going to be a rotation spot open.

 

I disagree with this statement that several people, not you in particular Jordan, have made over the last couple of months. Freddy is now 2 seasons removed from surgery and I think by most would be considered just about fully healthy. I realize that he is never going to throw high 90's heat again, but he has shown that he can be very effective as a "junkballer".

 

The pitcher that I am most concerned about is Gavin Floyd and his hip injury. I don't think that it was ever clearly identified as just a one time thing, or explained to be a reoccuring problem. Someone did say at one time I believe that Gavins injury is different from what cut short the career of Brit Burns, but I still wonder if this is something that is going cause future problems for Gavin as well. Gavin did say something about a month or so ago about "feeling fine", but it wouldn't be the first time that someone thought that they were good to go after being off of it for a couple of months only to find out that the problem still existed after they started to be active again. This could also be why Gavin decided to sign his contract last offseason, maybe he felt that his hip could turn into a problem and wanted to protect himself in the case that it did.

 

I'm not a doctor and I am not trying to be pessimistic towards Gavin. I just think that Floyd is more of a concern than Garcia at this point.

[Kyyle23]

I disagree with this statement that several people, not you in particular Jordan, have made over the last couple of months. Freddy is now 2 seasons removed from surgery and I think by most would be considered just about fully healthy. I realize that he is never going to throw high 90's heat again, but he has shown that he can be very effective as a "junkballer".

 

The pitcher that I am most concerned about is Gavin Floyd and his hip injury. I don't think that it was ever clearly identified as just a one time thing, or explained to be a reoccuring problem. Someone did say at one time I believe that Gavins injury is different from what cut short the career of Brit Burns, but I still wonder if this is something that is going cause future problems for Gavin as well. Gavin did say something about a month or so ago about "feeling fine", but it wouldn't be the first time that someone thought that they were good to go after being off of it for a couple of months only to find out that the problem still existed after they started to be active again. This could also be why Gavin decided to sign his contract last offseason, maybe he felt that his hip could turn into a problem and wanted to protect himself in the case that it did.

 

I'm not a doctor and I am not trying to be pessimistic towards Gavin. I just think that Floyd is more of a concern than Garcia at this point.

 

 

So you are more concerned about Gavin because he wasnt allowed to pitch his last few meaningless starts as opposed to Freddy who was released by the Mets last year and took over for those last few meaningless starts after rehabbing again in the minors? To me a shoulder injury is much more worrisome than a hip pointer.

Edited November 30, 2009 by KyYlE23

[balfanman]

So you are more concerned about Gavin because he wasnt allowed to pitch his last few meaningless starts as opposed to Freddy who was released by the Mets last year and took over for those last few meaningless starts after rehabbing again in the minors? To me a shoulder injury is much more worrisome than a hip pointer.

 

I believe that Floyd and Ozzie have both stated that the hip problem caused Floyd to alter his mechanics. To me, that says arm problem just waiting to happen.

 

Again, I don't pretend to be "in the know" on this situation. it just seems to me that Floyd could very well be a bigger injury risk than Garcia at this point.

[Ranger]

I disagree with this statement that several people, not you in particular Jordan, have made over the last couple of months. Freddy is now 2 seasons removed from surgery and I think by most would be considered just about fully healthy. I realize that he is never going to throw high 90's heat again, but he has shown that he can be very effective as a "junkballer".

 

The pitcher that I am most concerned about is Gavin Floyd and his hip injury. I don't think that it was ever clearly identified as just a one time thing, or explained to be a reoccuring problem. Someone did say at one time I believe that Gavins injury is different from what cut short the career of Brit Burns, but I still wonder if this is something that is going cause future problems for Gavin as well. Gavin did say something about a month or so ago about "feeling fine", but it wouldn't be the first time that someone thought that they were good to go after being off of it for a couple of months only to find out that the problem still existed after they started to be active again. This could also be why Gavin decided to sign his contract last offseason, maybe he felt that his hip could turn into a problem and wanted to protect himself in the case that it did.

 

I'm not a doctor and I am not trying to be pessimistic towards Gavin. I just think that Floyd is more of a concern than Garcia at this point.

 

 

Actually, of I'll the guys I'm concerned about, Freddy is the last, too. Gavin is a slight concern but I'm acually more worried about the health of Danks. He should be fine, but there is some concern.

[Princess Dye]

i wonder at what point the non-AdrianGonzalez content of this thread becomes the majority of it

[balfanman]

Actually, of I'll the guys I'm concerned about, Freddy is the last, too. Gavin is a slight concern but I'm acually more worried about the health of Danks. He should be fine, but there is some concern.

 

Is this due to Danks' blister issue, or is there another concern?

[dyuen]

Actually, of I'll the guys I'm concerned about, Freddy is the last, too. Gavin is a slight concern but I'm acually more worried about the health of Danks. He should be fine, but there is some concern.

 

I think the reason we are all least concerned about Freddy is because he is the 5th starter. Thus, he is the easiest to replace. An injury to Gavin or John would have a much more negative impact on the team.

[macsandz]

Really? Have you actually been paying attention to relief pitchers around baseball? Relievers, even really good ones, will have bad months. And sometimes even have them at least once a year. It's kind of the nature of relief pitchers.

 

Again, if you noticed, the Sox gave Linerbink ample time last season to make a turnaround, and it did not happen. And when it did not happen, they appropriately altered his duties. So you'rs basically saying that the Sox should have cut their losses with Konerko in 2008? Because it was the same situation where fans were absolutely certain he was done. Turns out he was not.

 

 

 

Yeah, we were on yesterday. It's been random times during the offseason because we have football on and what not. Usually we're on around noon, give or take an hour.

 

Sorry I missed it. Can't find the Podcast on the 670 site. Could you nudge the boys to be sure to upload those shows in the offseason?

I know a lot of people like to download the files if they miss the broadcast. Thanks, Chris.

[balfanman]

I think the reason we are all least concerned about Freddy is because he is the 5th starter. Thus, he is the easiest to replace. An injury to Gavin or John would have a much more negative impact on the team.

 

Not sure exactly what you meant by this but my lack of concern for Freddy has nothing to do with the number "5". As of right now I would have to say that Freddy probably does have the least amount of "pure stuff" on the staff. That being said, my opinion is that Freddy will prove to be one of, if not the most valued members of the rotation next year. You can call me optimistic or whatever other name that you have for me, but I think that Freddy has more "moxy" than anyone else on the staff, even Buerhle, and I love Mark. Admittedly I have not yet formed an opinion on Peavy yet because I really haven't observed him much.

 

Freddy knows how to pitch and for whatever reason I feel that Garcia may just turn into our most consistant pitcher next season. For what it's worth, if I had to make a prediction for comeback player of the year in 2010, I would bet on Freddy over anyone else right now.

Edited November 30, 2009 by balfanman

[Chisoxfn]

I'd love to see the list of other elite setup men that have had at least 1 bad month in each of the last several seasons.

 

As for Konerko, no, I wouldn't have cut my losses. PK had 4 consecutive very good seasons in a row prior to 08'. It was also clear he was dealing with injuries all year, most importantly being his jammed thumb. It's fairly obvious that PK is winding down relative to other first basemen throughout the league, but he was nowhere near as horrendous in 08' as Scott Linebrink has been for long stretches over the past several years.

Scott Shields, 2007: 9.00 and 6.17 ERA's down the stretch for the Angels (Aug/Sep)

 

 

I just want to point out that I don't think anyone is arguing that Linebrink stunk, I think the point is, Linebrink stunk but the club was going to give him chance after chance to prove himself because of his track-record.

 

You could explain the reason for Linebrink's poor 2nd halves in almost any instance. Most of the time he was the most worked pitcher in baseball (much like Scott Shields at times) and because of it, he tired and was less effective in the 2nd half.

 

2008 was different, he was hurt, and this past year, well he was struggling with command and I don't think he was fatigued.

 

Bottom line, Ozzie should have went to him less often in crucial situations, but than again, he tried everyone, he'd go to Pena and he'd blow it, Randy Williams would blow it, Jenks would blow it, etc.

 

Linebrink was terrible but everyone but Matt Thornton and DJ (and DJ had his faults in the 2nd half of the season too) stunk and because of it the bullpen problems were magnified.

[elrockinMT]

Mr. Rongey, I am certainly not here to dispute the fact that relievers can be extremely inconsistent. My contention is simply that Linebrink has been far more inconsistent than just about any established mlb reliever/setup man over the course of the last 4 years.

 

Honestly, this debate is tired. Let's agree to disagree and move on. No one is enjoying reading this anymore anyways.

 

No hard feelings, Mr. Rongey.

 

 

Linebrink was failing and flailing for most of the seond half