Sox ask Tampa Bay about BJ Upton

[southsider2k5]

KW really has never gone for that kind of a move, a Brandon Jennings.

 

As great as his potential might be, KW always errors on the side of finding undervalued/underperforming talent.

 

I can't think of one instance in his history where's overpaid for an unproven prospect, trading away the likes of Flowers/Hudson/Mitchell, etc. and a couple of other pieces to get him. In fact, his track record is just the opposite, trading overvalued prospects for proven talent.

 

Yes, there are always going to be players in hindsight that you would have traded for (like an Evan Longoria), but 80-90% of the time those elite prospects never produce as expected, at least enough to justify their massive price tag in terms of talent surrendered.

 

Brandon McCarthy for John Danks and Nick Massett?

[knightni]

KW really has never gone for that kind of a move, a Brandon Jennings.

The only Brandon Jennings that I know is the point guard for the Milwaukee Bucks.

 

Do you mean Desmond Jennings?

[BaseballNick]

Who in their right mind wouldn't trade Hudson for Jennings?

 

Project Prospect has Hudson ranked as the #3 pitching prospect in the game behind Strasburg and Matusz. They have Desmond Jennings ranked as the #7 position prospect in baseball. They make it seem like it would be a fair one-for-one trade.

[GREEDY]

I have posted this take before, and I really don't want to beat a dead horse but...

 

I really do not see the Chicago White Sox acquiring a CF this offseason.

 

Even before Alex Rios proceeded to have a horrible end of the year with the Sox, his claiming was a major gamble; But it was a risk worth taking for KW, because center fielders do not grow on trees. Especially center fielders that will play average or better defense and have major offensive upside for the position.

 

While I love defense more than the next guy... hell, more than any guy: Alex Rios has 3X the value as a CF, that he has as a RF.

 

There will likely be a plethora of inexpensive corner outfielder options, so I cannot imagine the Sox would need to break the proverbial prospect bank to acquire another outfielder. Especially considering KW could acquire a really inexpenssive RH outfielder, platoon him with Teahen or Kotsay and get great production for a fraction of what JD made in '09.

 

I just cannot see Rios playing anywhere but CF for the 2010 Chicago White Sox.

[caulfield12]

Brandon McCarthy for John Danks and Nick Massett?

 

 

that was more of a prospect for prospect trade....although McCarthy was certainly at the time seen as more "big league ready"

 

i meant, a package of prospects being traded for a Top 10-20 in the minors type, like Joe Borchard at the peak of his career with us, on Jon Rauch before the labrum injury

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

that was more of a prospect for prospect trade....although McCarthy was certainly at the time seen as more "big league ready"

 

i meant, a package of prospects being traded for a Top 10-20 in the minors type, like Joe Borchard at the peak of his career with us, on Jon Rauch before the labrum injury

Agree. With the McCarthy trade, Brandon had already spent one full season and part of a second in the Majors. The reasoning Jon Daniels gave at the time was that the biggest jump a prospect can make is from the minors to the Majors, and because Brandon had already made that jump successfully, Brandon was the surer bet.

 

There are prospect-for-prospect deals quite often, but I've never seen a prospect-for-bevy of prospects deal happen, which is probably what it would take to get Jennings - if that was even an option, which I don't think it is. He'd be far and away our best prospect if we had him, and if that were the case, I couldn't imagine anyone here wanting to trade him for anyone we currently have in the minors. TB would laugh at us, and rightfully so.

[3E8]

Project Prospect has Hudson ranked as the #3 pitching prospect in the game behind Strasburg and Matusz. They have Desmond Jennings ranked as the #7 position prospect in baseball. They make it seem like it would be a fair one-for-one trade.

Last month Baseball America ranked Hudson 15th best prospect from the SL, while Jennings was 3rd behind Heyward (pretty much consensus best prospect in baseball) and our own Beckham. Hudson is still a fine prospect, just not at Jennings level. I'm not familiar with Project Prospect, but they are the only publication which will consider Hudson 3rd best pitching prospect in the game

[Ozzie Ball]

I'm not familiar with Project Prospect, but they are the only publication which will consider Hudson 3rd best pitching prospect in the game

That doesn't mean that they are wrong, Project Prospect puts a lot of weight into both statistics and a prospects floor, hence the ranking of Hudson.

[mmmmmbeeer]

If I'm trading Hudson or Flowers it's for someone who doesn't come with question marks. While Upton is immensely talented, he comes with a whole lot of question marks. If you send Hudson and Flowers to TB, you paid more for potential than you did for a proven stud like Jake Peavy....granted money plays into that comparison, but I'm sure you get my point.

[southsider2k5]

that was more of a prospect for prospect trade....although McCarthy was certainly at the time seen as more "big league ready"

 

i meant, a package of prospects being traded for a Top 10-20 in the minors type, like Joe Borchard at the peak of his career with us, on Jon Rauch before the labrum injury

 

These are your exact words.

 

I can't think of one instance in his history where's overpaid for an unproven prospect, trading away the likes of Flowers/Hudson/Mitchell, etc.

 

Kenny traded our top prospect (IE a Flowers/Hudson/MItchell) for two unproven prospects in both Danks and Massett.

[southsider2k5]

I have posted this take before, and I really don't want to beat a dead horse but...

 

I really do not see the Chicago White Sox acquiring a CF this offseason.

 

Even before Alex Rios proceeded to have a horrible end of the year with the Sox, his claiming was a major gamble; But it was a risk worth taking for KW, because center fielders do not grow on trees. Especially center fielders that will play average or better defense and have major offensive upside for the position.

 

While I love defense more than the next guy... hell, more than any guy: Alex Rios has 3X the value as a CF, that he has as a RF.

 

There will likely be a plethora of inexpensive corner outfielder options, so I cannot imagine the Sox would need to break the proverbial prospect bank to acquire another outfielder. Especially considering KW could acquire a really inexpenssive RH outfielder, platoon him with Teahen or Kotsay and get great production for a fraction of what JD made in '09.

 

I just cannot see Rios playing anywhere but CF for the 2010 Chicago White Sox.

 

The Sox are looking for a person they could put into the lead off spot. I think they realize that with the players they have this person could play any OF position, or either 2B or 3B. If they find this person, they will make the other players fit. If it ends up being a CF, Rios will slide into RF.

[JPN366]

If Tampa extends Crawford, it may make Jennings more available.

[3E8]

That doesn't mean that they are wrong, Project Prospect puts a lot of weight into both statistics and a prospects floor, hence the ranking of Hudson.

Clearly they put most of their weight on statistics, or Hudson wouldn't be ranked so high. Valuating a pitcher mainly by stats is how Texas lost Danks in favor of Brandon McCarthy. There should be a better balance of both "stuff" and stats in the evaluation. Even in Project Prospect's one-sentence comment about Hudson says he needs an out pitch to righties. Kind of a big caveat considering most hitters in the game are right-handed

[WCSox]

Upton's the kind of guy that I'd really hate to overpay for and then have him go all Delmon Young on us. So talented but seems like he's been struggling forever.

 

And he has injury problems too, it seems.

 

^^^^^

 

I love Upton's skill set, but this guy has a number of red flags. The fact that the Rays are interested in shopping him while he's (1) under team control for two or three more years and (2) coming off of a bad season with his trade value at an all-time low gives me even more pause. If they're willing to deal him straight-up for Hudson right now, it would appear to me that they view Upton as damaged goods and want to move him while before he puts up another sub-par season and loses trade value.

 

Edited November 23, 2009 by WCSox

[Chisoxfn]

Sox Interested in Upton; Omogrosso and Vizquel Updates

[CanOfCorn]

Sox Interested in Upton; Omogrosso and Vizquel Updates

 

Cowley is rolling over in his journalistic grave.

[harfman77]

What about a deal that would send Flowers, Jenks, Morel for Upton and Burrell, the Sox have to give up less in the way of prospects, take on some salary, and fill the DH and OF holes for next season.

 

CF Upton

SS Ramirez

LF Quentin

1B Konerko

C AJP

2B Beckham

3B Teahen

DH Burrell

RF Rios

 

Bench

De Aza

Vizquel

Blanco

Kotsay

 

Still a pretty right handed lineup, with a lot of money coming off the books after next season with Konerko and Burrell.

[witesoxfan]

What about a deal that would send Flowers, Jenks, Morel for Upton and Burrell, the Sox have to give up less in the way of prospects, take on some salary, and fill the DH and OF holes for next season.

 

CF Upton

SS Ramirez

LF Quentin

1B Konerko

C AJP

2B Beckham

3B Teahen

DH Burrell

RF Rios

 

Bench

De Aza

Vizquel

Blanco

Kotsay

 

Still a pretty right handed lineup, with a lot of money coming off the books after next season with Konerko and Burrell.

 

First and foremost, Burrell and Rios would both be hitting higher in that lineup. It'd be more likely you'd see Beckham hitting 2nd, Burrell and Rios hitting 6th and 7th, with Ramirez and Teahen rounding out the lineup.

 

Second, I still don't see a huge bat in that lineup. Surely both Upton and Burrell could get there, but they were far from it last season.

 

Finally, I don't understand why Tampa makes that deal. There has been talk on here of them being interested in Jenks, but they have both Wheeler and Howell, who are more than capable of closing games down for them. Flowers would probably be an upgrade from Navarro, but it wouldn't be a surprise to see Navarro bounce back and put up another .750 OPS again either. Further, Morel is too far away and generally unproven as a prospect, and that still wouldn't be enough value for Upton alone. Finally, the Rays lose two big parts of their offense - again, even considering both were generally awful last season - and don't really get anything MLB ready back.

 

That general deal just doesn't make a lot of sense.

[ThunderBolt]

If Upton can be bought, he needs to be had. This kid is in the dictionairy under 5-tool player. This gives us 3 potentially elite, young options in the OF. By all means send Jenks, Morel, Whatever. Just get it done.

[LZPride08]

If Upton can be bought, he needs to be had. This kid is in the dictionairy under 5-tool player. This gives us 3 potentially elite, young options in the OF. By all means send Jenks, Morel, Whatever. Just get it done.

 

Well if one of those 5 tools isn't hustle I agree, I could see Ozzie being tougher then Maddon was for Upton's lack of hustle

[ThunderBolt]

Hell, if we could pluck Hank Conger from the Angels in a Konerko trade, i'd make it Jenks and Flowers..

Edited November 24, 2009 by Thunderbolt

[macsandz]

First and foremost, Burrell and Rios would both be hitting higher in that lineup. It'd be more likely you'd see Beckham hitting 2nd, Burrell and Rios hitting 6th and 7th, with Ramirez and Teahen rounding out the lineup.

 

Second, I still don't see a huge bat in that lineup. Surely both Upton and Burrell could get there, but they were far from it last season.

 

Finally, I don't understand why Tampa makes that deal. There has been talk on here of them being interested in Jenks, but they have both Wheeler and Howell, who are more than capable of closing games down for them. Flowers would probably be an upgrade from Navarro, but it wouldn't be a surprise to see Navarro bounce back and put up another .750 OPS again either. Further, Morel is too far away and generally unproven as a prospect, and that still wouldn't be enough value for Upton alone. Finally, the Rays lose two big parts of their offense - again, even considering both were generally awful last season - and don't really get anything MLB ready back.

 

That general deal just doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

"they have both Wheeler and Howell, who are more than capable of closing games down for them."

 

Wrong. Wheeler and Howell were HORRIBLE as were everybody else that tried to close for the Rays last season. Lack of a true closer cost them probably 15 wins last year. The Rays need a closer badly and Jenks is the answer. I'm certain Kenny has strategies to move Bobby + parts to TB for Upton. He's gonna overhaul the defense as much a possible in the next few months and he should.

 

The Sox didn't take on $100M+ on Rios/Peavy contracts to watch another season thrown away by idiot defense and retarded baserunning.

[Balta1701]

The Sox didn't take on $100M+ on Rios/Peavy contracts to watch another season thrown away by idiot defense and retarded baserunning.

But what happens when the Sox start blowing games because of how thin their bullpen is?

[witesoxfan]

"they have both Wheeler and Howell, who are more than capable of closing games down for them."

 

Wrong. Wheeler and Howell were HORRIBLE as were everybody else that tried to close for the Rays last season. Lack of a true closer cost them probably 15 wins last year. The Rays need a closer badly and Jenks is the answer. I'm certain Kenny has strategies to move Bobby + parts to TB for Upton. He's gonna overhaul the defense as much a possible in the next few months and he should.

 

The Sox didn't take on $100M+ on Rios/Peavy contracts to watch another season thrown away by idiot defense and retarded baserunning.

 

Wheeler was never given a chance to close, seeing as how he had 2 saves all year and only had 4 blown saves (which is still a BS statistic because you can blow a save in the 7th). Howell had 8 blown saves, but I'm not going to bother putting in the time and effort into figuring out which were in the 7th and 8th and which were in the 9th. I just know that they aren't going to put much value into a closer who put up a worse numbers than both Howell and Wheeler did last year, dealt with injuries last year, is out of shape, and is going to cost them around $7 mill.

 

And I guarantee lack of a "true closer" didn't cost them "15 games". I would say a regressions in both the starting pitching staff and the offense cost them more games than anything else. They had Longoria for a full season, and Zobrist came out of nowhere, but they also had Burrell who was awful, Upton's OPS fell about 100 points, Navarro's OPS dropped almost 200 points.

 

Further, the Sox have increased their defense already. Rios is an improvement on defense from Podsednik, Wise, or Dye, regardless of where he plays, and the Sox brought in Vizquel to be a defensive backup. Further, De Aza will likely provide very solid defense in LF late in games if Ozzie chooses to do that, and Kotsay will probably be able to handle himself in the corners.

[macsandz]

Wheeler was never given a chance to close, seeing as how he had 2 saves all year and only had 4 blown saves (which is still a BS statistic because you can blow a save in the 7th). Howell had 8 blown saves, but I'm not going to bother putting in the time and effort into figuring out which were in the 7th and 8th and which were in the 9th. I just know that they aren't going to put much value into a closer who put up a worse numbers than both Howell and Wheeler did last year, dealt with injuries last year, is out of shape, and is going to cost them around $7 mill.

 

And I guarantee lack of a "true closer" didn't cost them "15 games". I would say a regressions in both the starting pitching staff and the offense cost them more games than anything else. They had Longoria for a full season, and Zobrist came out of nowhere, but they also had Burrell who was awful, Upton's OPS fell about 100 points, Navarro's OPS dropped almost 200 points.

 

Further, the Sox have increased their defense already. Rios is an improvement on defense from Podsednik, Wise, or Dye, regardless of where he plays, and the Sox brought in Vizquel to be a defensive backup. Further, De Aza will likely provide very solid defense in LF late in games if Ozzie chooses to do that, and Kotsay will probably be able to handle himself in the corners.

 

Wheeler was given a chance and so was Howell. The Rays blew 4 saves in a row to the Tigers at the end of last season. 4 blown saves in a week. Comparing Jenks, who is an elite MLB closer to the Committee of Fail the Rays sported last season is a joke. Of course the Rays want Jenks. Kenny is gonna have to eat some dosh if he moves him and you bet he would to aquire Upton.