Omogrosso to be 100% by spring training

[JPN366]

I've always been impressed by Omogrosso. He has a bulldog mentality and a wicked fastball/slider combo that has the potential to be effective as a relief pitcher. He has the personality that would fit well being managed by Ozzie Guillen. He's not afraid to pitch inside or go after hitters. A perfect example, during a game this past season that he started, he threw inside to Reds prospect Todd Frazier. Frazier decided to act like a baby and make a scene. Brian just stared at him blankly while Frazier gesticulated wildly. When I saw the look on Brian's face, I knew the next pitch would plunk Frazier, and it did. So yes, I think Omogrosso has major potential, he has to stay healthy and all the other things that lead to success in the show. I don't understand the people who come on here and rail against certain minor leaguers stubbornly for no reason whatsoever. Insisting that they have no chance, but the fact of the matter remains, if there is potential, there is a chance for them to fully realize it. Being a prospect is not so black and white. There is plenty of gray area, it's not so cut and dry and if you have never seen a player in person, you have no legs to stand on in regards to your insistance that they suck.

[qwerty]

Age is key, but I don't agree it is AS key as some make it. I have always been in the school of thought that some organizations are focused on age to a point where they are significantly shrinking the pool of possible talent for themselves. And that makes no sense to me. If two players put up similar numbers in AA and AAA, for example, with similar physical and mental skill sets, but one is 22 in AAA while the other is 24, I don't think that should matter. What is more important is the reason WHY they are those ages. If one player was drafted two years after the other, and they spent the same time in the minors, then the difference between them is almost zero in my eyes (the exception to this being that one would have more "young" years in the majors than the other). Or, if one player is blocked by a superstar above them, that may be an indicator that they could be very effective, even if a couple years older than ideal.

 

And then, yes, as you said, there are the late bloomer aberrations occasionally.

 

I just think the focus on age is a bit overdone, more often than not, for no reason that has real consequence.

 

The problem with that scenario is the fictional players that are 22 and 24 with similar physical and mental skill sets would be we don't know a thing about them. At what age were they drafted? 18-20-22? If and when did they struggle, at what stages, how many years of repeats? What are their flaws? There are way too many questions to be asked. More times than not, if a player is that good, but there is a player blocking him in the majors who looks to be that much superior for an extended period of time, and he is locked up for years to come, one of two things happen more times than not. Position change to fill another need, or he is traded to fill another need.

 

I don't believe that the vast majority of posters on this board have unrealistic expectations about minor league players. They just like to read about and talk about them. If not here, then where? We simply try to cover as many players as possible in as much detail as possible to give people who are interested a way to learn about the players.

 

So, please don't feel the need to be a reality cop for minor league discussions.

 

I have just as much of a right to give my say as anyone, if it's not what the majority agrees with, then so be it, if feathers get ruffled, that is not my problem to deal with, i call it how i see it. Btw, there definitely are some here that seem more concerned with a minor league championship, rather than a major league one. Thankfully the guy in charge seems to think entirely different.

 

I'll come back to this thread in several months and update this with all the gems from this off-season.

 

Oh dear, he's 25 and a pitcher. He must be done. Bobby Jenks was already 25 going on 26 when he got his first shot in the majors.

 

Jenks was 24 going on 25 when he first came up with the sox is 2005.

 

General consensus in a player is once a player turns 26 their prospect label in gone. As i stated, it's not say a player cannot still make it and defy the odds, but it's extremely rare Players who come up after that point and stick around for any significant amount of time are in the vast, vast minority. It's just fact, it's no hidden secret. Omogrosso just so happens to turn 26 not even one month into the major league season, pardon me for jumping the the conclusion five months prior and taking away his prospect title.

 

I've always been impressed by Omogrosso. He has a bulldog mentality and a wicked fastball/slider combo that has the potential to be effective as a relief pitcher. He has the personality that would fit well being managed by Ozzie Guillen. He's not afraid to pitch inside or go after hitters. A perfect example, during a game this past season that he started, he threw inside to Reds prospect Todd Frazier. Frazier decided to act like a baby and make a scene. Brian just stared at him blankly while Frazier gesticulated wildly. When I saw the look on Brian's face, I knew the next pitch would plunk Frazier, and it did. So yes, I think Omogrosso has major potential, he has to stay healthy and all the other things that lead to success in the show. I don't understand the people who come on here and rail against certain minor leaguers stubbornly for no reason whatsoever. Insisting that they have no chance, but the fact of the matter remains, if there is potential, there is a chance for them to fully realize it. Being a prospect is not so black and white. There is plenty of gray area, it's not so cut and dry and if you have never seen a player in person, you have no legs to stand on in regards to your insistance that they suck.

 

The future sox staff had this to say about omogrosso as recently as july 25th 2009.

 

Omogrosso tore his labrum mid-2009 and that may end up killing his career. It’s a tough injury to bounce back from and he already has an injury riddled past.

 

Interesting.

 

If you feel that people ''rail against certain minor leaguers stubbornly for no reason whatsoever'' because they are in disagreement, well, i just don't know what to tell you. It's called an opinion, for discussions sake. No one has to take what i or anyone else says as gospel. I could care less if people forget about what they just read of mine one second later, because someone may care, and may be in agreement. I also personally never insisted omogrosso would not make it and stick, i just stated i feel it's unlikely, which i stand by. The sox have not exactly had a plethora of talent come up and stick around in the majors for me to think they will suddenly start developing their own home grown talent, especially an already aging (26 one month into the season) middle reliever, who cannot throw the ball over the plate with consistency.

 

 

 

 

 

[SoxAce]

prepare to be bombarded by KHP with a bunch of incoherent arguments against age-relative-to-league. bizarrely, at least one of said arguments will feature jerry owens as an example.

 

:lolhitting

 

And to actually say my piece, Omogrosso has a major league fastball pre surgery so more or less the sox will give him any chance to succeed because of it. (ala Sergio Santos, who personally I feel he will never make it) Believe me if he isn't throwing 95+ again this year (unless it takes him months to get his arm back) or unless he is lighting up AAA batters (ala Wassermann) he will be gone.

Edited November 25, 2009 by SoxAce

[JPN366]

The future sox staff had this to say about omogrosso as recently as july 25th 2009.

 

"Omogrosso tore his labrum mid-2009 and that may end up killing his career. It’s a tough injury to bounce back from and he already has an injury riddled past."

 

That's what they call conjecture. Yes, it's possible, but anything is. I'm a Future Sox blogger by the way.

[JPN366]

All I'm saying is that anything can happen, you can't rule out anything. I was off by a year on Jenks, but in relation to that, would you have ever guessed an offseason waiver wire pickup playing at AA would become the closer and come through in the World Series?

[NorthSideSox72]

The problem with that scenario is the fictional players that are 22 and 24 with similar physical and mental skill sets would be we don't know a thing about them. At what age were they drafted? 18-20-22? If and when did they struggle, at what stages, how many years of repeats? What are their flaws? There are way too many questions to be asked. More times than not, if a player is that good, but there is a player blocking him in the majors who looks to be that much superior for an extended period of time, and he is locked up for years to come, one of two things happen more times than not. Position change to fill another need, or he is traded to fill another need.

You are kind of making my point here - the back story of WHY they are where they are, at the age they are, is more important than the number itself. That's really all I was saying.

 

Now certainly, you get into your late 20's, if you haven't broken through, then there is a 99.9% chance you won't, and for good reason. I'm just saying I think people get hung up on small age differences without seeing the bigger picture.

 

[JPN366]

In regards to the minor league championship and the major league championship, to make a statement that some people are more concerned with the with minor over the major is ridiculous. We all know that the major league team comes first. But the fact of the matter is that it is not somehow detrimental to the organization for one of the minor league teams to win their league. That's like saying it's detrimental to the organization for the minor leaguers to play in the AFL. It didn't hurt the Rays when in 2006-07 their AA team won the SL championship. I live in Birmingham and I'm a season ticket holder for the Barons, why wouldn't I want to see them win it all??? Why would I have a problem with that? I don't understand why someone attacks me for wanting to see my hometown team win a league title. I like David Cook, I want to see him succeed, why is that a problem for you or anybody else?? So what if he's not a prospect, that's not the point. I just don't get it, why am I bashed for liking David Cook? Qwerty, the problem is that you make all these broad generalizations and that's why everybody is questioning you. You're living and dying by these arbitrary thresholds, let it go and let things play out on their own. It's fine to have an opinion, but your blasting the rest of us for disagreeing. If you're saying whay you're saying about Omogrosso, then you're saying the same thing about Stefan Gartrell. He turns 26 in less than two months.

[qwerty]

You are kind of making my point here - the back story of WHY they are where they are, at the age they are, is more important than the number itself. That's really all I was saying.

 

Now certainly, you get into your late 20's, if you haven't broken through, then there is a 99.9% chance you won't, and for good reason. I'm just saying I think people get hung up on small age differences without seeing the bigger picture.

 

The ones that matter, aka the teams higher ups, are the ones getting hung up on certain ages, i am certainly not the only one. It's been this way almost ever since the draft was implemented. Nothing is changing anytime soon.

 

There is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree, which is gonna have to be the case in this situation.

[witesoxfan]

I know we never saw the slider, but couldn't Dewon Day get it into mid 90s? I seem to recall him hitting 95 or 96 a couple times. He didn't last long because his fastball was flat and his "plus-plus slider" was non-existant.

[JPN366]

I know we never saw the slider, but couldn't Dewon Day get it into mid 90s? I seem to recall him hitting 95 or 96 a couple times. He didn't last long because his fastball was flat and his "plus-plus slider" was non-existant.

 

Omogrosso is vastly more talented than Dewon Day. Day pitched well as a closer for B'ham in 2007, but the major league stint messed him up. He got shelled as a starter last year. He rarely got his fastball up into the mid 90's.

Edited November 29, 2009 by JPN366

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Talent trumps everything else, including age, and age is only a factor when there is talent to go with it. If you're 32 and you have a Major League arm you're still going to be considered more valuable than some 20-year-old with next to nothing. The AAAA pitchers that go from Triple-A org to Triple-A org year after year are still better bets to get a shot in the Majors than some right-handed kid posting an ERA under 1.00 in A-ball by commanding an 87-89mph fastball with little to no movement, even though the vet is considered a non-prospect and the kid shows up on prospect lists. If some other organization has a 21-year-old Omogrosso dominating in the upper levels then I'd rather have him, but that guy is going to cost a pretty penny.

 

Omogrosso has a Major League arm and he will get his shot if he can stay healthy. Whether he'll be able to throw good strikes in the Majors or not is anyone's guess, but his age is really irrelevant.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

The ones that matter, aka the teams higher ups, are the ones getting hung up on certain ages, i am certainly not the only one. It's been this way almost ever since the draft was implemented. Nothing is changing anytime soon.

 

There is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree, which is gonna have to be the case in this situation.

Which teams are doing this? They all make moves for power arms past their expiration dates or whatever you would call them. Boston alone acquired Javy Lopez and David Aardsma from us.

[qwerty]

In regards to the minor league championship and the major league championship, to make a statement that some people are more concerned with the with minor over the major is ridiculous. We all know that the major league team comes first. But the fact of the matter is that it is not somehow detrimental to the organization for one of the minor league teams to win their league. That's like saying it's detrimental to the organization for the minor leaguers to play in the AFL. It didn't hurt the Rays when in 2006-07 their AA team won the SL championship. I live in Birmingham and I'm a season ticket holder for the Barons, why wouldn't I want to see them win it all??? Why would I have a problem with that? I don't understand why someone attacks me for wanting to see my hometown team win a league title. I like David Cook, I want to see him succeed, why is that a problem for you or anybody else?? So what if he's not a prospect, that's not the point. I just don't get it, why am I bashed for liking David Cook? Qwerty, the problem is that you make all these broad generalizations and that's why everybody is questioning you. You're living and dying by these arbitrary thresholds, let it go and let things play out on their own. It's fine to have an opinion, but your blasting the rest of us for disagreeing. If you're saying whay you're saying about Omogrosso, then you're saying the same thing about Stefan Gartrell. He turns 26 in less than two months.

 

It's not ridiculous in the slightest, i see it here and many other places on a pretty frequent basis. I also said it seems that way, not that they do indeed care more about minor league championships, it's how they present themselves. Clearly there is nothing wrong with winning a minor league championship, or for players to play in the AFL. Attack you for wanting your home team to win a title? Not in the slightest. You or anyone can wish for your hometown team to win it all, that's your prerogative. David cook was drafted at 22, reach winston salem at 24, and got no significant time in birmingham until age 26, he currently is 28. Cook was never highly touted or thought of (realistically speaking) as anything more than a back up outfielder, and that was several years ago already. You can like him all you please, but there is a reason why he has never made it, the dream is over. Broad generalizations? At age 26 you are no longer considered a prospect, even if you may very well still have the talent and ability to succeed? Common school of thought. The skill set a player posseses is not the end all be all, but at what age and level that players hones his talent is the tell all. Every team has a time table for their draftees for when they ideally see them moving up the ladder, it's no secret. Some are worked with less than others when they slip behind too far, injuries are less forgiving, but the point still stands. Northside and yourself seem to believe a player can crack and stick into the big leagues later than than the data suggests. I tend to go with the extensive amount of data that suggests otherwise. Blasting people? If only. Gartrell i think of even less than omogrosso (relievers have the most leeway out of any position), if he were to make it, which i highly doubt he does, it will not be with this organization.

 

I'm having the same problem here that ranger is having in the adrian gonzalez thread. The game and how it works/runs has been this way for a very long time, and when you think about it, it's amazing how little things have changed over the years. Any examples of players that make it and stick when 26 or older in any era are in such a minority that it's kinda ridiculous. Aberrations. Aberrations. Aberrations. Nothing more.

 

Truly though, i am done with this thread, and i'm staying out of this forum entirely until spring training.

 

Which teams are doing this? They all make moves for power arms past their expiration dates or whatever you would call them. Boston alone acquired Javy Lopez and David Aardsma from us.

 

Javier lopez, who is different than javy lopez made the majors at 25 and has stuck around every year since. Aardsma cracked into the big leagues at 22 for 10.2 inning, was in the minors all of the next season, and has been made more than 25 appearances in every season from 2006, when he was 24 years old. Lopez also has a fastball velocity of 86.2 for his career, not exactly my definition of a power arm.

Edited November 30, 2009 by qwerty

[witesoxfan]

It's not ridiculous in the slightest, i see it here and many other places on a pretty frequent basis. I also said it seems that way, not that they do indeed care more about minor league championships, it's how they present themselves. Clearly there is nothing wrong with winning a minor league championship, or for players to play in the AFL. Attack you for wanting your home team to win a title? Not in the slightest. You or anyone can wish for your hometown team to win it all, that's your prerogative. David cook was drafted at 22, reach winston salem at 24, and got no significant time in birmingham until age 26, he currently is 28. Cook was never highly touted or thought of (realistically speaking) as anything more than a back up outfielder, and that was several years ago already. You can like him all you please, but there is a reason why he has never made it, the dream is over. Broad generalizations? At age 26 you are no longer considered a prospect, even if you may very well still have the talent and ability to succeed? Common school of thought. The skill set a player posseses is not the end all be all, but at what age and level that players hones his talent is the tell all. Every team has a time table for their draftees for when they ideally see them moving up the ladder, it's no secret. Some are worked with less than others when they slip behind too far, injuries are less forgiving, but the point still stands. Northside and yourself seem to believe a player can crack and stick into the big leagues later than than the data suggests. I tend to go with the extensive amount of data that suggests otherwise. Blasting people? If only. Gartrell i think of even less than omogrosso (relievers have the most leeway out of any position), if he were to make it, which i highly doubt he does, it will not be with this organization.

 

I'm having the same problem here that ranger is having in the adrian gonzalez thread. The game and how it works/runs has been this way for a very long time, and when you think about it, it's amazing how little things have changed over the years. Any examples of players that make it and stick when 26 or older in any era are in such a minority that it's kinda ridiculous. Aberrations. Aberrations. Aberrations. Nothing more.

 

I would say you are on fire, but I don't think that this is uncommon knowledge. In a nutshell, you are saying that players can make it past the age of 26 or 28 or 30, but they generally do not. This isn't to say that David Cook can't make it as a regular, but that he's more likely to be a career minor leaguer than to be a bench player similar to Ross Gload (which is nothing against him).

 

If Omogrosso is really that good, especially after shoulder surgery, I don't think the organization can really give up on him until after the 2011 season, unless something else hits him - at which point, I say either take a MLC with no 40-man requirement or hit the road, and give him a 6-pack for his sorrows.

 

I have my sincere doubts.

 

 

Which teams are doing this? They all make moves for power arms past their expiration dates or whatever you would call them. Boston alone acquired Javy Lopez and David Aardsma from us.

 

Javier lopez, who is different than javy lopez made the majors at 25 and has stuck around every year since. Aardsma cracked into the big leagues at 22 for 10.2 inning, was in the minors all of the next season, and has been made more than 25 appearances in every season from 2006, when he was 24 years old. Lopez also has a fastball velocity of 86.2 for his career, not exactly my definition of a power arm.

 

Javier Lopez was generally lucky during the 2 or so good years he had with Boston, posting high BB rates, low K rates, and mediocre H/9 while putting up good ERAs. That bit him in the ass come 2009, and he really wasn't heard from because he was horrendous.

 

David Aardsma, on the other hand, was never given another shot by the White Sox after a horrendous May, and was traded for a couple of low level prospects to the Red Sox, with whom he put up a horrendous ERA. With the Mariners, he was fantastic. The Red Sox haven't really ever done anything with any White Sox bullpen member that has bit the White Sox in the ass, unless you consider not offering Riske arbitration (which I think can be argued as a very legitimate mistake, and offering him arbitration is probably something I would have done). I would say that the only team that has taken a power arm from the Sox and gotten grand results would be the Reds with Nick Masset, and I don't think anyone had any hope for Masset when he was dealt for Griffey.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Javier lopez, who is different than javy lopez made the majors at 25 and has stuck around every year since. Aardsma cracked into the big leagues at 22 for 10.2 inning, was in the minors all of the next season, and has been made more than 25 appearances in every season from 2006, when he was 24 years old. Lopez also has a fastball velocity of 86.2 for his career, not exactly my definition of a power arm.

Sorry, meant to say power arms and lefties. Aardsma's age when he debuted had nothing to do with why the Red Sox acquired him. They acquired him because of his arm. The reason he has made so many appearances has to do with a lack of option years (2007 was his last one), which is why we traded him in the first place, because we couldn't send him down. Boston had to do the same thing and that's how the Mariners got him.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

It's not ridiculous in the slightest, i see it here and many other places on a pretty frequent basis. I also said it seems that way, not that they do indeed care more about minor league championships, it's how they present themselves. Clearly there is nothing wrong with winning a minor league championship, or for players to play in the AFL. Attack you for wanting your home team to win a title? Not in the slightest. You or anyone can wish for your hometown team to win it all, that's your prerogative. David cook was drafted at 22, reach winston salem at 24, and got no significant time in birmingham until age 26, he currently is 28. Cook was never highly touted or thought of (realistically speaking) as anything more than a back up outfielder, and that was several years ago already. You can like him all you please, but there is a reason why he has never made it, the dream is over. Broad generalizations? At age 26 you are no longer considered a prospect, even if you may very well still have the talent and ability to succeed? Common school of thought. The skill set a player posseses is not the end all be all, but at what age and level that players hones his talent is the tell all. Every team has a time table for their draftees for when they ideally see them moving up the ladder, it's no secret. Some are worked with less than others when they slip behind too far, injuries are less forgiving, but the point still stands. Northside and yourself seem to believe a player can crack and stick into the big leagues later than than the data suggests. I tend to go with the extensive amount of data that suggests otherwise. Blasting people? If only. Gartrell i think of even less than omogrosso (relievers have the most leeway out of any position), if he were to make it, which i highly doubt he does, it will not be with this organization.

 

I'm having the same problem here that ranger is having in the adrian gonzalez thread. The game and how it works/runs has been this way for a very long time, and when you think about it, it's amazing how little things have changed over the years. Any examples of players that make it and stick when 26 or older in any era are in such a minority that it's kinda ridiculous. Aberrations. Aberrations. Aberrations. Nothing more.

 

Truly though, i am done with this thread, and i'm staying out of this forum entirely until spring training.

 

Okay, so Sherrill and Putz are both aberrations then. You're still missing the entire point. Age only matters to a degree. If you have the arm to pitch in the Majors then teams give you shots. There's no age for learning how to pitch. I can agree with your argument a bit when it comes to position prospects, but pitching prospects are a completely different story. Grant Balfour didn't figure it out until he was 30 years old, and then he regressed again. But the arm is there and that's why he'll keep getting chances for as long as he wants to play. So what if Omogrosso will be 26 next year? If he can throw strikes in the low to mid-90's with sink and get his slider over once in a while from a low 3/4 vs. righties then he's going to at least make a pretty damn good specialist option. He may not have the best arm in our MiLB relief corp but he's got a good one. BTW, Santos Rodriguez will be 22 in Kannapolis and Nathan Jones will be 24 either starting in W-S or debuting in Birmingham. Does that mean we should think about writing them off pretty soon?

 

I think you're getting way too caught up in your stats which include all kinds of arms who are inferior to Omogrosso's to make your point. As relievers go, he's one of the better arms in our system, so if you're going to compare him to other pitchers who didn't turn out, at least be fair enough to limit the field a bit before you make your graph or whatever. I imagine what your stats are telling you is that because of Justin Cassels don't make it at that age then one Omogrosso shouldn't be expected to either. It's not the way baseball is. Teams go by talent and ceiling, then everything else. And if Omogrosso doesn't make it, it doesn't prove your point that 26-year-old relievers can't stick, it proves the overall point that it is tough for just about any relief prospect to come up and consistently throw good strikes in MLB.