southsider2k5 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 http://bleacherreport.com/articles/295726-...-of-fame-worthy Harold Baines missed by only 134 hits of reaching 3000 hits. The only players with more hits than Baines that are not in the Hall of Fame are Craig Biggio, Rafael Palmeiro, Barry Bonds and Pete Rose. Baseball-reference.com lists his .289 lifetime batting average as 389th in history. He is 54th in home runs with 384. He is 29th in runs batted in with 1628. Barry Bonds, Frank Thomas and Sammy Sosa are the only retired players not in the Hall of Fame with more runs batted in than Baines. Lack of Speed, Low OBP A major minus for Baines is his lack of speed with 34 stolen bases in 22 seasons and was also caught stealing 34 times. Another stat that will hurt him is his .356 on base percentage which is 520th alltime on the list. He hit very well in the postseason with a .324 average in 102 postseason at bats with five homers and 16 RBI’s. He is not known for his fielding either. One co-worker at the newspaper had driven to Illinois to see the White Sox and he said Baines was a butcher in the outfield. Two Innings on Defense in Last Nine Seasons From 1993 to 2001 he spent a total of two innings in the field after becoming a DH so that tells me he was not too good of a fielder. He led the AL in slugging in 1984 with a .541 percentage. The only time he finished first was when he was oldest player in the AL in 2001. Stats Compare With Four Hall of Famers Baseball-reference.com compares his stats with four Hall of Famers, Tony Perez, Al Kaline, Billy Williams and Jim Rice. Personally I would vote for Baines if I had voting privileges mainly because of his hits, home runs and runs batted in but I can see why a voter that focused on him being a two tool player would not vote for him. I think Baines is one of the good people in baseball but as much as I would like to see him voted into the Hall of Fame I will be surprised if he gets more than the 5.9 percent of votes he received last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan562004 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I'm a big fan of Harold, he was the superstar on the Sox when I was going to my first games at Old Comiskey, but I think he comes up a little short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 He won't get in. His offensive stats are nice, but the fact that he was a DH for the second half of his career probably put the nail on the coffin. If Jim Rice can get in with his stats, so can Baines. The only difference is that Rice actually played a position on the field and that matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Mark Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Absolutely not. The hall is not for good players, its not for great players, its for exceptional, rare, elite players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Derek Jeter honored for having fewer hits than Harold Baines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 QUOTE (chw42 @ Nov 23, 2009 -> 11:25 AM) He won't get in. His offensive stats are nice, but the fact that he was a DH for the second half of his career probably put the nail on the coffin. If Jim Rice can get in with his stats, so can Baines. The only difference is that Rice actually played a position on the field and that matters. Rice's career was more compact. His peak numbers were over a 10-12 year period where he was clearly one of the elite run producers and feared hitters in baseball. Baines accumulated big numbers over 20+ seasons. If you're an "accumulator", you have to get to 500 homers and/or 3000 hits. Baines didn't get to either and he never got close to winning an MVP. He came in 9th once and 10th once. He just doesn't cut it as a Hall of Fame player. He got his number retired and a statue from the White Sox...that's his Hall of Fame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 QUOTE (flavum @ Nov 23, 2009 -> 09:36 AM) Rice's career was more compact. His peak numbers were over a 10-12 year period where he was clearly one of the elite run producers and feared hitters in baseball. Baines accumulated big numbers over 20+ seasons. If you're an "accumulator", you have to get to 500 homers and/or 3000 hits. Baines didn't get to either and he never got close to winning an MVP. He came in 9th once and 10th once. He just doesn't cut it as a Hall of Fame player. He got his number retired and a statue from the White Sox...that's his Hall of Fame. I wonder if Rice would have gotten in had he played outside of NE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (chw42 @ Nov 23, 2009 -> 09:25 AM) He won't get in. His offensive stats are nice, but the fact that he was a DH for the second half of his career probably put the nail on the coffin. If Jim Rice can get in with his stats, so can Baines. The only difference is that Rice actually played a position on the field and that matters. Actually, the difference is that Rice was a dominant player (1 MVP, and 5 other finishes in the Top 10). He had almost as many HRs as Baines in six fewer seasons, and also higher a career BA and OPS. Harold's one of my favorite all-time Sox players, but he's only in the HOF discussion because of his longevity. And while there's something to be said for a guy who managed to play for 22 seasons, being a HOFer is about being a dominant player. Harold was an All Star-caliber player for a number of seasons, but never one of the top hitters in the league. Edited November 23, 2009 by WCSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 QUOTE (flavum @ Nov 23, 2009 -> 11:36 AM) Rice's career was more compact. His peak numbers were over a 10-12 year period where he was clearly one of the elite run producers and feared hitters in baseball. Baines accumulated big numbers over 20+ seasons. If you're an "accumulator", you have to get to 500 homers and/or 3000 hits. Baines didn't get to either and he never got close to winning an MVP. He came in 9th once and 10th once. He just doesn't cut it as a Hall of Fame player. He got his number retired and a statue from the White Sox...that's his Hall of Fame. I'd say Baines was a lot more consistent throughout his career. Rice really leveled off after 1983, but you're right he was a monster for a couple of years, which makes him one of the elite players in the league for nearly half a decade, something that Baines was not. However, you can say that consistency can also get you somewhere, just look at a guy like Craig Biggio. Granted, he's nothing spectacular, but the fact that he is an accumulator with 3,000 hits and played many weaker positions will probably get him into the hall sooner or later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 23, 2009 -> 11:37 AM) I wonder if Rice would have gotten in had he played outside of NE. I think he would have. He basically had to wait for 15 years because of spite. He was hated, and voters could always fall back on the fact he didn't play a long time. The numbers he put up in a 12-year period were really great. Rookie of the year, won an MVP, 4 other top-5 MVPs. He was always deserving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balfanman Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I don't believe that Harold is "Hall Worthy", whatever that means anymore. That said, the article states that the author believes that Harold was a below average defensive player and uses the fact that "he only played 2 innings there" for his reasoning.. Harold was a below average defensive player late in his career because he was extremely slow due to his injuries taking their toll. However, prior to his injuries I believe that he was a top shelf defensive right fielder with a pretty good arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (chw42 @ Nov 23, 2009 -> 09:48 AM) However, you can say that consistency can also get you somewhere, just look at a guy like Craig Biggio. Granted, he's nothing spectacular, but the fact that he is an accumulator with 3,000 hits and played many weaker positions will probably get him into the hall sooner or later. I'm not sure what you mean by "weaker positions." Last time I checked, 2B and C are a lot more difficult than RF and DH. If you want to get into the HOF at RF or DH (or LF or 1B), you need to be a dominant hitter... period. Biggio was a much better 2B than Harold was a RF, as evidenced by his four Gold Gloves and four Silver Slugger awards. Edited November 23, 2009 by WCSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Nov 23, 2009 -> 11:13 AM) I'm a big fan of Harold, he was the superstar on the Sox when I was going to my first games at Old Comiskey, but I think he comes up a little short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I loved him when I was a kid but I can't believe there are people out there that think he should even be considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunk23 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 QUOTE (flavum @ Nov 23, 2009 -> 06:36 PM) Rice's career was more compact. His peak numbers were over a 10-12 year period where he was clearly one of the elite run producers and feared hitters in baseball. Baines accumulated big numbers over 20+ seasons. If you're an "accumulator", you have to get to 500 homers and/or 3000 hits. Baines didn't get to either and he never got close to winning an MVP. He came in 9th once and 10th once. He just doesn't cut it as a Hall of Fame player. He got his number retired and a statue from the White Sox...that's his Hall of Fame. This is such BS. Most feared hitter? Jim Rice played from 1974 to 1989. He was intentionally walked 77 times over this period of time. This is good for 49th overall for that time period. Ahead of him include feared hitters Ben Oglivie, Warren Cromartie, and Keith Hernandez. For another comparison, Dave Concepcion was intentionally walked 75 times from 1974 to 1988 (when he retired). Jim Rice is the lucky recipient of a massive PR campaign that he wouldn't have had if he played for a non-AL East team. He was a good player, but not HOF worthy and his entrance immediately lowered the standard for the hall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Why would someone publish to the internet the last few paragraphs of a report their kid wrote for their 4th grade class? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bschmaranz Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Unless your offensive numbers were out of this world I don't see how a guy who played over 1500 games as a DH gets in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Nov 23, 2009 -> 12:33 PM) Why would someone publish to the internet the last few paragraphs of a report their kid wrote for their 4th grade class? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonxctf Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Jim Rice was... - A 8 time All Star - A 2 time Silver Slugger Winner - A MVP Winner (1978) - Finished in the Top 5 for MVP, 6 times - Led his team to 2 World Series - In the 1990 World Series he hit .333 - Played in the Field - Career Avg .293 30HR 113RBI - Got into the HOF on his 15th and Final Try. Harold Baines was... - A 6 time All Star. - A 1 time Silver Slugger Winner. - Never Won a MVP. - Never Finished in the Top 5 for MVP. - Led his team to 1 World Series - In the 1986 World Series he hit .143 - Rarely played in the Field - Career Avg .283 22HR 93RBI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 QUOTE (Markbilliards @ Nov 23, 2009 -> 05:28 PM) Absolutely not. The hall is not for good players, its not for great players, its for exceptional, rare, elite players. I don't think Harold will make it, but he was and is a special player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 QUOTE (jasonxctf @ Nov 23, 2009 -> 03:34 PM) Jim Rice was... - A 8 time All Star - A 2 time Silver Slugger Winner - A MVP Winner (1978) - Finished in the Top 5 for MVP, 6 times - Led his team to 2 World Series - In the 1990 World Series he hit .333 - Played in the Field - Career Avg .293 30HR 113RBI - Got into the HOF on his 15th and Final Try. Harold Baines was... - A 6 time All Star. - A 1 time Silver Slugger Winner. - Never Won a MVP. - Never Finished in the Top 5 for MVP. - Led his team to 1 World Series - In the 1986 World Series he hit .143 - Rarely played in the Field - Career Avg .283 22HR 93RBI Rice was a career .298 hitter... baines on the other had was a career .289 hitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I loved him when I was a kid but I can't believe there are people out there that think he should even be considered. He fell just shy of 3,000 hits. Of course he should at least be considered. So what if he played forever. Almost everybody in his hit range has made it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 QUOTE (greg775 @ Nov 24, 2009 -> 12:57 PM) He fell just shy of 3,000 hits. Of course he should at least be considered. So what if he played forever. Almost everybody in his hit range has made it. Of the 5 hitters in directly in front or behind Harold Baines on the All Time hit list Harold has about 500+ more games played than all of them except Brooks Robinson, Mel Ott and Babe Ruth. Reaching 2800+ hits by way of being a only a good hitter for a very long time doesn't really impress people especially when the only reason you played that long was because you only saw the field 4 or 5 times a game as a designated hitter from age 28 on. Those guys around Baines on the hit list are some of the greatest players of all time and largely dominant players for their era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Great points. I'm just saying it's not a joke to at least consider him. Somebody said it was wrong to even have his name in the discussion. I disagree with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 QUOTE (bschmaranz @ Nov 23, 2009 -> 03:23 PM) Unless your offensive numbers were out of this world I don't see how a guy who played over 1500 games as a DH gets in. That's the rub. People will point to Harold's number of hits, and it was a lot, but where would he rank all time if the DH was in the NL and had been around since the beginning? Without the DH, and I know its a legit position now, Harold wouldn't have nearly the numbers he had. Like has been posted above, he was a very good player, the article saying he was a butcher in the field was wrong, he actually was not a bad defender and had a decent arm before his legs started failing. He made a lot of money, has a statue at USCF and a job as long as he wants one in the White Sox organization. But he's not a HOFer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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