Bullpen Discussion

[NorthSideSox72]

I read where Orlando Hudson would be hard pressed to get the guarantee of a little over $3 million he received last year. Put him at 2B, leave Beckham at 3B, and I think the infield everyday defense is better than with Teahan, the offense is most likely better and you still have money left over. I keep reading about bargains. As giddy as people are about Teahan and Vizquel, and I find it shocking, the bullpen has yet to be addressed. There are plenty of reasons the Sox lost a lot in 2009. Having Omar Vizquel play 3B in the 8th and 9th, addresses only an extremely small percentage.

 

As for waiting before commenting, if that's the case, why have a message board? KW said he was doing some projection with Teahan, why can't we? IMO the White Sox have spent $5 million that could have been spent on more pressing issues. Sure Vizquel is one of the greatest defensive players ever, but not only is he now 43, he's not going to play much. He had a little over 1 chance a game last year if you consider the 162 game schedule.

I don't understand the philosophy some folks here have with the bullpen. I don't see any reason to add any more than one new arm to the pen, tops. And I think that concern is secondary to the fact that the team is short an OF and a DH right now, which are much more glaring holes.

 

The Sox bullpen, despite its struggles last year, put up a 4.08 ERA, good for the middle of the pack in the AL. Save percentage was also mid-pack. This despite the fact that Linebrink (the main setup guy originally) imploded beyond anything he's done in his career, Jenks has his weakest season as a closer, Dotel (7th inning guy originally) had a down year career-wise, and Tony Pena failed to live up to expecations. Carrasco had basically the same year he had in 2008. The only bullpen arm of significant innings who actually pitched better than his career typically would indicate, was Matt Thornton.

 

Given the fact that the above pitchers were relatively healthy, and none are particularly old as far as relievers go, I think there is a very good chance that most or all other than Thornton will improve in 2010. Add to that we have Dan Hudson, a high end pitching prospect by any measure, who will probably be added to that pen. And guys like Nunez, who look to have the talent, in the wings.

 

If you can find a serious upgrade arm somewhere, somehow, without seriously denting the major league roster, then you do it. But barring that, I'd be in no hurry to upgrade the pen. I'd be focusing on those OF and DH slots.

[chetkincaid]

I don't understand the philosophy some folks here have with the bullpen. I don't see any reason to add any more than one new arm to the pen, tops. And I think that concern is secondary to the fact that the team is short an OF and a DH right now, which are much more glaring holes.

 

The Sox bullpen, despite its struggles last year, put up a 4.08 ERA, good for the middle of the pack in the AL. Save percentage was also mid-pack. This despite the fact that Linebrink (the main setup guy originally) imploded beyond anything he's done in his career, Jenks has his weakest season as a closer, Dotel (7th inning guy originally) had a down year career-wise, and Tony Pena failed to live up to expecations. Carrasco had basically the same year he had in 2008. The only bullpen arm of significant innings who actually pitched better than his career typically would indicate, was Matt Thornton.

 

Given the fact that the above pitchers were relatively healthy, and none are particularly old as far as relievers go, I think there is a very good chance that most or all other than Thornton will improve in 2010. Add to that we have Dan Hudson, a high end pitching prospect by any measure, who will probably be added to that pen. And guys like Nunez, who look to have the talent, in the wings.

 

If you can find a serious upgrade arm somewhere, somehow, without seriously denting the major league roster, then you do it. But barring that, I'd be in no hurry to upgrade the pen. I'd be focusing on those OF and DH slots.

 

 

This is an excellent post. I agree. I would rather fix the holes that are in the OF and DH. I will be very disappointed if the fix is Pods and Thome again. I would trade Jenks if I found a taker and it got me a decent OF.

[witesoxfan]

I still believe people are using selective memory in thinking of Tony Pena's "failure" with the White Sox. They have had better relievers before, but he was actually pretty solid for the Sox.

[LittleHurt05]

I still believe people are using selective memory in thinking of Tony Pena's "failure" with the White Sox. They have had better relievers before, but he was actually pretty solid for the Sox.

 

3.75 ERA, 1.36 WHIP with the Sox

 

Definitely could have given up a few less baserunners, but you can do way way worse for a middle reliever. The Cubs just got a few prospects from Zona for Heilman who was worse than Pena

 

 

[jphat007]

3.75 ERA, 1.36 WHIP with the Sox

 

Definitely could have given up a few less baserunners, but you can do way way worse for a middle reliever. The Cubs just got a few prospects from Zona for Heilman who was worse than Pena

 

What was his inherited runners scored? How many games did he blow or lose? I don't have any numbers right in front of me but one of the most vivid things I can remember from this past season was Pena pitching terribly when we were still kinda in it. I remember telling myself that if he was a major part of the bullpen in 2010 we'd be screwed. But I don't have the tiem to look up the numbers today so I'm just going to have to be anecdotal.

[dyuen]

This is an excellent post. I agree. I would rather fix the holes that are in the OF and DH. I will be very disappointed if the fix is Pods and Thome again. I would trade Jenks if I found a taker and it got me a decent OF.

 

I would as well. I think all of them are holes but if we dont have a good OF and DH than the pen will be meaningless. Plus, guys often come out of nowhere and produce in the pen.

[Kalapse]

What was his inherited runners scored? How many games did he blow or lose? I don't have any numbers right in front of me but one of the most vivid things I can remember from this past season was Pena pitching terribly when we were still kinda in it. I remember telling myself that if he was a major part of the bullpen in 2010 we'd be screwed. But I don't have the tiem to look up the numbers today so I'm just going to have to be anecdotal.

54% stranded which isn't terrible considering he inherited 26 runners in 36 innings with the Sox (that's a s*** load). 3.77 FIP (fielding independent pitching) so he wasn't getting a lot of extra help from his defense, his k/9 was up to 7.25 as was his k/bb at 3.22, his biggest problem was his HR rates went up his HR/9 was up to 1.00 from .79 in ARZ and his HR/FB raised 3.4% with the move. I'd say he's a pretty good bet for 2010.

[DBAHO]

I still believe people are using selective memory in thinking of Tony Pena's "failure" with the White Sox. They have had better relievers before, but he was actually pretty solid for the Sox.

And he basically only pitched to about 50% of his true ability this season IMO.

 

I think he's one you can certainly expect a bounce back season from in 2010.

[Dick Allen]

Why? As far as I can tell, there isn't a single reliever that has even been signed yet this off season.

I was shocked at the giddyness of the Teahan and Vizquel acquisitions, not that the bullpen hasn't been addressed yet. Before anyone gets too excited about this team, that needs to be straightened out.

[Dick Allen]

I don't understand the philosophy some folks here have with the bullpen. I don't see any reason to add any more than one new arm to the pen, tops. And I think that concern is secondary to the fact that the team is short an OF and a DH right now, which are much more glaring holes.

 

The Sox bullpen, despite its struggles last year, put up a 4.08 ERA, good for the middle of the pack in the AL. Save percentage was also mid-pack. This despite the fact that Linebrink (the main setup guy originally) imploded beyond anything he's done in his career, Jenks has his weakest season as a closer, Dotel (7th inning guy originally) had a down year career-wise, and Tony Pena failed to live up to expecations. Carrasco had basically the same year he had in 2008. The only bullpen arm of significant innings who actually pitched better than his career typically would indicate, was Matt Thornton.

 

Given the fact that the above pitchers were relatively healthy, and none are particularly old as far as relievers go, I think there is a very good chance that most or all other than Thornton will improve in 2010. Add to that we have Dan Hudson, a high end pitching prospect by any measure, who will probably be added to that pen. And guys like Nunez, who look to have the talent, in the wings.

 

If you can find a serious upgrade arm somewhere, somehow, without seriously denting the major league roster, then you do it. But barring that, I'd be in no hurry to upgrade the pen. I'd be focusing on those OF and DH slots.

Dotel is gone and the bullpen was horrible last year. If the Sox picked up Pujols to DH and Holliday to play RF, if the bullpen performs like it did in 2009, they wouldn't win.

[NorthSideSox72]

Dotel is gone and the bullpen was horrible last year. If the Sox picked up Pujols to DH and Holliday to play RF, if the bullpen performs like it did in 2009, they wouldn't win.

Did you actually read the stats I provided? Or look up your own? Because if you did, you'd see that, no, the bullpen wasn't horrible, it wasn't even bad. It was meh, or mediocre, or OK, or whatever middle-of-the-road adjective you choose. And as I also showed, the majority of the pen had numbers well worse than what was typical for them.

 

So do you have any evidence or numbers to indicate that the pen was supposedly so horrible? And that somehow the performance of those pitchers is highly likely to repeat itself?

 

[RibbieRubarb]

Dotel is gone and the bullpen was horrible last year. If the Sox picked up Pujols to DH and Holliday to play RF, if the bullpen performs like it did in 2009, they wouldn't win.

 

Hmmm...not to sure about that. Easy on the hyperbole...

[balfanman]

Dotel is gone and the bullpen was horrible last year. If the Sox picked up Pujols to DH and Holliday to play RF, if the bullpen performs like it did in 2009, they wouldn't win.

 

Are we positive that Dotel is gone yet? I personally think that the Sox are considering offering Dotel arbitration. It would not suprise me to see Dotel accept it, and I can't say that I would mind if he did. Since the Sox don't seem to be "excited", for lack of a better word, about bringing Jenks back, this would allow them to trade Jenks. You could possibly slide Thornton into the closer role, Dotel to set up, and find one more lefty reliever. You would in essence be paying Dotel slightly less then you would be paying Jenks, which might be enough of a difference to sign another reliever. JMHO.

[NorthSideSox72]

I split off this bullpen discussion to its own thread.

 

Let's have some perspective here on the Sox bullpen in 2009. First, here are the team's ranks among the 14 AL teams in various measures:

 

ERA: 8th

SAVE %: 6th

BB/9: 2nd lowest

K/9: 5th

HR allowed: 3rd lowest

WHIP: 10th

 

Basically, all in all, the Sox had an OK bullpen last year, statistically.

 

As for 2010, Dotel is gone (we are assuming). Unless a trade occurs, we still have these core guys:

 

Jenks (had a down year)

Thornton (had a career year)

Linebrink (had his worst year)

Carrasco (had basically the same year as 2008)

Pena (had an OK year)

 

Remember too, Pena's OK-ness replaced some extremely weak links, so this year, you get a full year of him, so right there is likely to be an improvement over that slot last year in total. Jenks and Linebrink both had bad years, its unlikely they'd both be bad again (but possible). Carrasco seems to be pretty much clockwork. That leaves two slots open from Williams/Nunez/Hudson/someone new. And those two slots would be replacing Dotel, and the revolving door spot. Williams was effective in his time there, Hudson probably would be pertty good, and Nunez has some nice potential.

 

The Sox had an average pen last year, and all indications are that there's a good chance it improves in 2010, without doing ANYTHING. So, while I am all for looking for improvement, I wouldn't make it a priority, or spend a bunch of money on it.

 

[balfanman]

I split off this bullpen discussion to its own thread.

 

Let's have some perspective here on the Sox bullpen in 2009. First, here are the team's ranks among the 14 AL teams in various measures:

 

ERA: 8th

SAVE %: 6th

BB/9: 2nd lowest

K/9: 5th

HR allowed: 3rd lowest

WHIP: 10th

 

Basically, all in all, the Sox had an OK bullpen last year, statistically.

 

As for 2010, Dotel is gone (we are assuming). Unless a trade occurs, we still have these core guys:

 

Jenks (had a down year)

Thornton (had a career year)

Linebrink (had his worst year)

Carrasco (had basically the same year as 2008)

Pena (had an OK year)

 

Remember too, Pena's OK-ness replaced some extremely weak links, so this year, you get a full year of him, so right there is likely to be an improvement over that slot last year in total. Jenks and Linebrink both had bad years, its unlikely they'd both be bad again (but possible). Carrasco seems to be pretty much clockwork. That leaves two slots open from Williams/Nunez/Hudson/someone new. And those two slots would be replacing Dotel, and the revolving door spot. Williams was effective in his time there, Hudson probably would be pertty good, and Nunez has some nice potential.

 

The Sox had an average pen last year, and all indications are that there's a good chance it improves in 2010, without doing ANYTHING. So, while I am all for looking for improvement, I wouldn't make it a priority, or spend a bunch of money on it.

 

I think that that HR allowed stat is excellent considering that we play 81 games at the Cell.