beck72 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 05:23 AM) I was thinking more along the lines of what Marco Scutaro did last year, good contact (.282 AVG, 75 K), very good OBP, decent speed and not much in the way of power. Gordon fits most of that criteria, esp. the avg. and have an above avg. OBP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco72 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Nov 26, 2009 -> 11:04 PM) Seriously, Swisher is exactly who he described. Average speed/.370 OBP ...and a horrible lead off hitter for the Sox after April of 2008. Just because Swisher failed as a high OBP type leadoff hitter doesn't make the idea behind it void. The Sox have struggled to find a league average leadoff hitter the last few years, and clearly a high OBP guy is cheaper than a guy with high OBP + speed + contact. For a guy getting the most ABs on the team, the most important thing is for him to "set the table" by being on base for the big hitters coming next. Speed would be nice, but speed is not > OBP in my opinion for a leadoff guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco72 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Nov 26, 2009 -> 10:55 PM) "We didn't sign him to be a DH but that more or less is what he is." He was signed almost entirely to be featured part time in the Sox DH rotation next season. According to KW, Jones was signed to be a backup OFer. Do you know something we don't? (Of course, he may DH some, especially if he gets hot, but it doesn't seem that the intent of the signing is as a DH... and I'm one who even suggested Jones as a platoon partner with Thome if the Sox go cheap at DH). QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Nov 26, 2009 -> 11:00 PM) I don't know why fans are so fixated on this deal. Jones won't get more than 200 plate appearances and he shouldn't. He may play the OF once every couple Sundays, but it's not gonna be often. The Sox just aren't counting much at all on Jones and the size of their offer proves it. He's making less then Dwayne Wise did last year. I don't see much "fixation." Sure, there's a decent size thread on this, but there's not much else going on. Might as well talk about what's real than a bunch of rumors and speculation. You seem to not like the move. You don't see how we can help the Sox? You don't think he's an upgrade over Wise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 26, 2009 -> 05:11 PM) Atleast the Sunday lineups will be a hell of a lot more fun. Honestly, the first thing I thought of when I heard about this signing was Jermaine Dye signing with the White Sox for the first time. Dye was 2 years younger, but went through a similar transgression - .792, .514, .793 from 2002-2004, and then he came back with an .846 OPS for the Sox and was very solid beyond that. Jones has put up .724, .505, and .786 over the previous 3 seasons. I'm not going to predict an .850 OPS over 550 plate appearances, just noticing the similarities. I really, really like this signing. I just wish there was a team option for next season. Dye was coming off a horrific injury. Andruw Jones is coming off being a lazy, fatass. I like the signing and agree that at 32 he should still have plenty of baseball left. But whether he ultimately becomes the player he once was or even close to that, I wouldn't expect it. Wouldn't be shocked if it happened either and as long as he's comfortable having to earn a spot and playing off the bench if he doesn't completely rake, than for 500K its a steal of a deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyuen Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Disco72 @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 10:17 AM) According to KW, Jones was signed to be a backup OFer. Do you know something we don't? (Of course, he may DH some, especially if he gets hot, but it doesn't seem that the intent of the signing is as a DH... and I'm one who even suggested Jones as a platoon partner with Thome if the Sox go cheap at DH). I know things and he was not signed to be a starter Edited November 27, 2009 by KyYlE23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Dye was coming off a horrific injury. Andruw Jones is coming off being a lazy, fatass. If he is a lazy, fatass, then that's what he will continue to be. Guys don't change at age 32. Only hope of change in that regard is if he wants another big contract someday and he's too old to get one of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco72 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 QUOTE (docsox24 @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 02:37 PM) I know things and he was not signed to be a starter I'm not sure if we're agreeing and disagreeing. My point was that the poster claimed Jones was definitely going to be a DH (at least part of a full time rotation there) while I claimed Jones would be a backup (though perhaps DH some). I never claimed Jones would be a starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyuen Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 QUOTE (Disco72 @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 03:22 PM) I'm not sure if we're agreeing and disagreeing. My point was that the poster claimed Jones was definitely going to be a DH (at least part of a full time rotation there) while I claimed Jones would be a backup (though perhaps DH some). I never claimed Jones would be a starter. I was saying that I agreed with you 100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 QUOTE (docsox24 @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 10:25 PM) I was saying that I agreed with you 100% Since you obviously have some sort of insight into the Sox organization, anything we should be looking out for next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco72 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 QUOTE (docsox24 @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 04:25 PM) I was saying that I agreed with you 100% Well then, I must comment on how bright and reasonable a poster you are.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyuen Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 QUOTE (fathom @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 03:26 PM) Since you obviously have some sort of insight into the Sox organization, anything we should be looking out for next? I will try and keep you posted. I expect it to be quiet for a little while Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 We're trading for Albert Pujos and Tim Limsecum tomorrow - duh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macsandz Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 QUOTE (docsox24 @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 05:07 PM) I will try and keep you posted. I expect it to be quiet for a little while Kenny will be active at the meetings and will package Jenks in a deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macsandz Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 QUOTE (Disco72 @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 11:13 AM) Just because Swisher failed as a high OBP type leadoff hitter doesn't make the idea behind it void. The Sox have struggled to find a league average leadoff hitter the last few years, and clearly a high OBP guy is cheaper than a guy with high OBP + speed + contact. For a guy getting the most ABs on the team, the most important thing is for him to "set the table" by being on base for the big hitters coming next. Speed would be nice, but speed is not > OBP in my opinion for a leadoff guy. The Sox had an above average lead off hitter just last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 09:34 PM) The Sox had an above average lead off hitter just last season. Above average compared to what? The average line for an AL leadoff man in 2009 was .284/.355/.420/.775 and a 76% SB percentage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macsandz Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 QUOTE (Disco72 @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 11:17 AM) According to KW, Jones was signed to be a backup OFer. Do you know something we don't? (Of course, he may DH some, especially if he gets hot, but it doesn't seem that the intent of the signing is as a DH... and I'm one who even suggested Jones as a platoon partner with Thome if the Sox go cheap at DH). I think he's definately seen more as a DH than a backup OF. If he's not, then he should be. Kotsay should take the field before Jones does, IMO. I don't see much "fixation." Sure, there's a decent size thread on this, but there's not much else going on. Might as well talk about what's real than a bunch of rumors and speculation. You seem to not like the move. You don't see how we can help the Sox? You don't think he's an upgrade over Wise? Fixation is here, and several other boards. I see how Jones can help the Sox. I think it's a decent move that may win a couple games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macsandz Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 10:37 PM) Above average compared to what? Compared to what the Sox have had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 10:46 PM) Compared to what the Sox have had. How many years back should the investigation go for a quantification of this statement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macsandz Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 QUOTE (knightni @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 10:48 PM) How many years back should the investigation go for a quantification of this statement? The context for both my previous posts is in the statement I responded to: "The Sox have struggled to find a league average leadoff hitter the last few years" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 09:37 PM) Above average compared to what? The average line for an AL leadoff man in 2009 was .284/.355/.420/.775 and a 76% SB percentage. Ill take what Scott Podsednik did last year from the leadoff spot any day of the week... the problem is he now thinks he's a stud FA and the odds of him repeating 09 are about as good as mine to win the lottery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 10:51 PM) The context for both my previous posts is in the statement I responded to: "The Sox have struggled to find a league average leadoff hitter the last few years" ...and Pods is below average. Why revisit that? Are you "settling"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco72 Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 10:51 PM) The context for both my previous posts is in the statement I responded to: "The Sox have struggled to find a league average leadoff hitter the last few years" The statement is still true. I was overjoyed at what Pods gave us off the scrapheap last year, but look at what the Sox had been running out there in the leadoff spot recently. No question about it, the team has struggled to find a league average leadoff hitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie4Pres Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 QUOTE (Disco72 @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 10:03 PM) The statement is still true. I was overjoyed at what Pods gave us off the scrapheap last year, but look at what the Sox had been running out there in the leadoff spot recently. No question about it, the team has struggled to find a league average leadoff hitter. And in a market like Chicago, why should we settle for even an AVERAGE leadoff hitter? We should be targetting ABOVE average players damnit, nevermind all these scrapheap, makeshift guys we're throwing out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Nov 26, 2009 -> 10:23 PM) Look, I wasn't lobbying for Swisher. That dude was an idiot and as bad a fit for this franchise as I can remember (outside of Albert Belle). I was just making the point that there are still those Sox fans that think OBP trumps speed/OBP for a lead off hitter. I was reminding him that we tried that and it didn't work. The Sox needed speed to setup RISP as much or more than other teams to offset the softball lineup they ran out there the past few years. QUOTE (Disco72 @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 10:13 AM) Just because Swisher failed as a high OBP type leadoff hitter doesn't make the idea behind it void. The Sox have struggled to find a league average leadoff hitter the last few years, and clearly a high OBP guy is cheaper than a guy with high OBP + speed + contact. For a guy getting the most ABs on the team, the most important thing is for him to "set the table" by being on base for the big hitters coming next. Speed would be nice, but speed is not > OBP in my opinion for a leadoff guy. I was wrong about the acquisition of Swisher. At the time of the trade, I thought his offensive numbers would improve at the Cell and I thought he would be a nice contributor, but I did not think he would fail to fit within that clubhouse. I think I overestimated him in that regard, but he certainly rubbed a few of the vets the wrong way. Speed helps in that spot and is ideal, but it isn't absolutely crucial. Like you said, OBP is much more important. As long as you have good RISP, and guys just generally good with runners on base. QUOTE (Kalapse @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 09:37 PM) Above average compared to what? The average line for an AL leadoff man in 2009 was .284/.355/.420/.775 and a 76% SB percentage. I'd say Podesdnik flirted with "above average" last year. In the American League: Top 5 in BA, 6th in OBP, Top 3 in stolen bases (in about 100 fewer AB's than many other regulars), Top 4 in extra base hits. The question about Podsednik is not, "was last year good enough for a leadoff hitter?" Of course it was. Undoubtedly, the Sox would be in pretty good shape if their 2010 leadoff hitter did what Pods did last year. But the real question is, "will he do that again?" That I don't know, and it is the real dilemma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 QUOTE (CQMVP @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 11:32 PM) And in a market like Chicago, why should we settle for even an AVERAGE leadoff hitter? We should be targetting ABOVE average players damnit, nevermind all these scrapheap, makeshift guys we're throwing out there. Within reason, who do you want? It would be great to have Figgins, but he will not be worth what he will likely get this offseason. There just aren't many "above average" players that are available or realistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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