Texsox Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Short form summary of the arguments that have been used in this thread and elsewhere: Pro Bonds argument: If you accept one form of cheating, you must accept all forms of cheating. My response: Different rules have different consequences based on severity. To punish all the rules the same would either mean no penalties or the harshest penalties, no matter what. Our society has never operated that way. A fair punishment for point shaving or throwing a game is a lifetime suspension. Should we also apply that to throwing a spitball? Pro Bonds: If you have ever cheated, no matter how small, you cannot hold Bonds accountable. My response: Again the assumption would be that all cheating or rules breaking is the same. Someone who shoots an 85 and turns in an 84 in a fun game with friends for bragging rights, is on a much different level than someone playing on the PGA tour and turning in a bogus scorecard and winning millions. Someone playing poker in their home is different than someone operating a casino. Someone corking a bat and hitting a few home runs is different than someone using a corked bat for half their career. Pro Bonds: Everyone was cheating. My response: No, some where not. Pro Bonds: He was already the greatest that ever played. My response: Perhaps that is true, but then why did he use steroids? I wish we could fairly compare his stats to other players who did not use PEDs. Clearly he would have been in the discussion. Too bad we have to predict what effects his drug usage had. Pro Bonds: He still had to hit the ball. The didn't really help his stats. My response: Then why did he use them and why are they called performance enhancing drugs? Pro Bonds: It wasn't against the rules at the time. My response: They hid it from everyone, including their clean team mates. They lied and claimed it was supplements, better workout regimes, etc. They knew it was wrong. Pro Bonds: It wasn't in the rules book. My response: Either is slitting the tires of a player's car so they can't get to the game, doesn't mean it is allowed or should be tolerated. And my final point, (unless someone plows some new pro PED ground), is this. Unlike all the other rules infractions that have been employed in baseball, this was unenforceable by the umpires. They couldn't pick up the ball and see the foreign substance. Further, the affect and effects were greater than any other form of cheating. That puts this on a different scale than other forms of cheating. Also, in defense of Bonds and other superstar players, is perhaps the grossest miscarriage in all this, is that the teams and league management, those people who the game was entrusted to, allowed this to flourish. I am not placing all the blame on the players, Bonds included. In fact, in many ways I believe management deserves a much bigger black eye than they are receiving. They made millions from this and seem to be getting a free ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 (edited) Why do people have a higher tolerance for PED use in the other sports? Likely because the individual records were not considered sacred in those sports. Thus, in our eyes ,Shawn Merriman can do whatever he wants and it doesnt affect our enjoyment of the game. I personally have always felt the team achievements should take (far and away) precedence over individual records, so the steroid use doesnt bother me to the level it does others. Many baseball records' legitimacy were affected by things such as changes to the length of season, pro-hitter mound/ball changes..... and yet they persevered. This may be too much to survive though. Perhaps, like in the NBA with the all-time leading scorer, it will soon be the case where no one cares much about the HR king title. PED use obviously does unfairly hurt the team that's not using in the context of a single game..... so in that sense i WOULD have a huge problem with it...........But as far as throwing blame.....you just still dont know exactly where to throw it, so it's kind of tough to get in a huff about. There are unknown things pitchers are doing to cheat, including drug use themselves..... so it's hard to rule in a definitive way on that. What I'd hate to see happen in the long run: Bonds is saddled with tons more blame than is coming the way of Pettitte, Ortiz, Manny, Clemens, A-Rod......simply because he was at the forefront of it earlier. After all, Bonds won no rings, which should be what matters Edited November 29, 2009 by Princess Dye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 I commend Tex. Upstanding posts. Are you pro Bonds people thinking about what would show up in ST? The guy is OLD. Remember Michael with the Wizards? He sucked and it was an ugly sight to see. As I recall he was so bad the novelty even wore off and the games weren't on TV much. Bonds is old. He's done with baseball. Thome would be a much better option and he's getting up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 QUOTE (greg775 @ Nov 29, 2009 -> 02:01 PM) I commend Tex. Upstanding posts. Are you pro Bonds people thinking about what would show up in ST? The guy is OLD. Remember Michael with the Wizards? He sucked and it was an ugly sight to see. As I recall he was so bad the novelty even wore off and the games weren't on TV much. Bonds is old. He's done with baseball. Thome would be a much better option and he's getting up there. Thank you. I just noticed you are in Lawrence. One of my fav authors, William Burroughs lived the last years of his life there. I believe his literary executor, James Grauerholz, still lives there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 The only thing that bothers me about your argument, Tex, is that it doesn't account for Bonds' right to be paid according to how he fit in amongst his peers in the game. Baseball is a game where you are compensated based on your statistical performance relative to the rest of the players in the league. If other players in the league are cheating, and that impacts your paycheck, how do you account for that? If you read the book on Bonds and his alleged drug use, it begins with a passage about Bonds seeing McGwire and Sosa in the home run chase, knowing full-well that they were cheating, and being ticked off that they were getting all the press and hype when Bonds believed he was the better player. That is when he supposedly decided to start doing PED's - to keep up with the Jones's. How do you address that part of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Even if you get past the baggage of Bonds, the guy is going to be 45, not able to cheat, and out of baseball for a full season if he were to come back again. Its just not worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I still think Bonds could be an effective DH 5 days a week (.260-.380-.450+). He'd jump at league minimum at this point. So from a production vs cost standpoint, it would be a solid investment. As a fan, I would love the move, but if I'm management it'd be a tough move to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longshot7 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 QUOTE (Tex @ Nov 28, 2009 -> 09:16 PM) No you will not convince me that cheating is OK. No, it is not as bad as manslaughter, you brought up speeding and stealing office supplies, and if that is OK, then steroids is fine also. I elaborated and showed how we've always ha d a sliding scale. Go ahead and cheat and have someone read it to you. Bonds and the other players hid their usage and denied to this day. Why? When someone cheats you out of something that is rightfully yours, perhaps a promotion, money, whatever, I hope you have the same feeling and congratulate the person who cheated you. I'm not going to cheat my way to a victory, but if you can live with that, so be it. Millions of people cheering for you, thinking you played by the rules, but really, you just f***ed over the honest guy. That makes you a dishonest person. I guess that is how you were raised. Shoot a five, write down a four. Cork a bat. Slip an ace off the bottom of the deck. Then you are the man! Try and convince yourself you are a better golfer, baseball player, or poker player than the guy who played by the rules. Once you start lying, it is probably easy enough to convince yourself you are really better than the poor sucker who plays it honest. But when you change the rules, you change the sport. If Bonds really thought it was OK he'd be arguing just like you. But in this debate, I'll take honesty over deceit. If you believe that is holier than thou, so be it. But there are a lot more honest people in this world that cheaters. I hope one day you won't have to cheat to win. My guess is you never tried. In the end, you are a cheater. Fortunantly society doesn't honor that very much. Not too many parades and respect for cheaters. Well, this isn't meant personally at you, but this really does resemble the excuses of a LOSER. Anyone who feels like likewise has to realize the game has passed them by. And we're not looking to eliminate the rules - if you get rid of them, you eliminate the FUN of breaking them. That's what you miss in all this. Cheating is fun. Winning is fun. And that's really what it's all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 The spectrums in which tex and longshot both stand are pretty damn scary. Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Longshot I get the feeling you are trolling on this. You can't be serious. Yes in school I cheated once in a while I guess. I'm not proud of that but I copied off people once in a while, etc. I can't think of ever cheating in sports, maybe tried to hold a guy in basketball, but the ref had the opportunity to call it a foul. Cheating is wrong. You can win and not cheat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Steal a sign, increase your chances of contact, hit a home run. Take a PED, improve your eyesight (increase your chances of contact), hit a home run. Both are cheating, both have the same result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 QUOTE (qwerty @ Nov 29, 2009 -> 11:55 PM) The spectrums in which tex and longshot both stand are pretty damn scary. Wow. Tend to get the best and worst of both realms, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 29, 2009 -> 09:22 PM) The only thing that bothers me about your argument, Tex, is that it doesn't account for Bonds' right to be paid according to how he fit in amongst his peers in the game. Baseball is a game where you are compensated based on your statistical performance relative to the rest of the players in the league. If other players in the league are cheating, and that impacts your paycheck, how do you account for that? If you read the book on Bonds and his alleged drug use, it begins with a passage about Bonds seeing McGwire and Sosa in the home run chase, knowing full-well that they were cheating, and being ticked off that they were getting all the press and hype when Bonds believed he was the better player. That is when he supposedly decided to start doing PED's - to keep up with the Jones's. How do you address that part of it? Easy, and you are correct, the only way compensation is fair is if everyone is playing under equal conditions. So why not publish a lengthy list of the rules and demand everyone follow the same list? Sounds easier than allowing everyone to create their own list. You would be placing a non existent right to cheat above your stated right to be fairly compensated. That leads to the inequities you mentioned. And it also highlights why I think owners and league management deserve a black eye in this, they silently allowed it to go on, for the same reason, money. Longshot, yes, many sports have passed me by, Today, other than a golf course, I'd lose to most of the youngins. But when I was younger I beat those that played fair and I beat the cheaters like yourself. Damn, that is a good feeling. Too bad you will never understand that. You never beat someone in a fair contest. You probably should go back to cheating and have someone write your posts for you. It is the old person, the guy who is too slow, too weak, that needs to cheat to catch up. You would think someone for whom the game has not passed them by wouldn't need to cheat. Those that think cheating is OK, is it not then hypocritical to enforce the rules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 QUOTE (knightni @ Nov 30, 2009 -> 02:11 AM) Steal a sign, increase your chances of contact, hit a home run. Take a PED, improve your eyesight (increase your chances of contact), hit a home run. Both are cheating, both have the same result. Which PED improves eyesight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 QUOTE (sircaffey @ Nov 30, 2009 -> 10:45 AM) Which PED improves eyesight? I believe Bonds claimed the Cream and the Clear improved his eyesight... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 30, 2009 -> 09:45 AM) I believe Bonds claimed the Cream and the Clear improved his eyesight... Can an injection really improve your eyesight? Given what really is needed to correct eyesight, that doesn't seem possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 QUOTE (sircaffey @ Nov 30, 2009 -> 10:58 AM) Can an injection really improve your eyesight? Given what really is needed to correct eyesight, that doesn't seem possible. I believe there have been many claims by players that HGH improved their vision...I am not an opthomologist though, so I don't know the specifics... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyuen Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 QUOTE (sircaffey @ Nov 29, 2009 -> 09:36 PM) I still think Bonds could be an effective DH 5 days a week (.260-.380-.450+). He'd jump at league minimum at this point. So from a production vs cost standpoint, it would be a solid investment. As a fan, I would love the move, but if I'm management it'd be a tough move to make. I highly doubt he would take the league minimum, let alone jump at it. As a fan I would hate the move, I don't think he would be very productive at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 QUOTE (docsox24 @ Nov 30, 2009 -> 12:04 PM) I highly doubt he would take the league minimum, let alone jump at it. As a fan I would hate the move, I don't think he would be very productive at all. Oh I think he would. He wants to play...he feels like he is blackballed right now...I know he has a lot of pride, but I think he wants back into the game even more. He would probably demand performance incentives, but I think he would take the minimum as a base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I'd cream my pants if we signed Bonds. I'm all for it, and have been for a while now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Nov 30, 2009 -> 11:42 AM) I'd cream my pants if we signed Bonds. I'm all for it, and have been for a while now. I hear Pete Rose is available, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Nov 30, 2009 -> 06:42 PM) I'd cream my pants if we signed Bonds. I'm all for it, and have been for a while now. I would suggest the privacy of your closet. Not going to happen. Plus unless Barry got knee replacement I am not certain he would be healthy enough to last a full season. No doubt he was a great peformer, but his days are done I believe Edited November 30, 2009 by elrockinMT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 A PED improved Caminiti's eyesight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwolf68 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Is the goal to have the oldest team in the history of baseball? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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