Sox will not offer arbitration to Dotel, Dye, Pods or Castro

[Chisoxfn]

But you did think the Floyd deal was terrible. I saw your posts.

He also talked for the most part of 08 how much Floyd sucked. He has since eaten crow on that one. I made sure of it, because as his time progressed I turned into one of the biggest Floyd backers on this site. I also argue that over the last two seasons he has been our best starting pitcher.

 

Danks is a close 2nd, but Floyd goes deeper into games and that is why I'd ultimately take Floyd. Buehrle has also been rock solid and was clearly the ace in terms of leadership purposes, but Floyd was very very good the past two years.

[iamshack]

Absolutely...something that a lot of people forget is that it was during the Bulls game where the trade was first announced, and the announcers were saying there was a major leaguer involved in the deal coming to the Sox also. I didn't go back and read the thread, so I can't remember who it was (Rowand maybe?). When we found out the trade was just Gio/Gavin, that's when most of us got really pissed.

Yeah, Dore announced Rowand was coming back in the trade at one point.

 

[fathom]

He also talked for the most part of 08 how much Floyd sucked. He has since eaten crow on that one. I made sure of it, because as his time progressed I turned into one of the biggest Floyd backers on this site. I also argue that over the last two seasons he has been our best starting pitcher.

 

Danks is a close 2nd, but Floyd goes deeper into games and that is why I'd ultimately take Floyd. Buehrle has also been rock solid and was clearly the ace in terms of leadership purposes, but Floyd was very very good the past two years.

 

Jason, I'm sure you saw the Bill James thing about how dominant Gavin's curve is (.410 OPS against).

[Kyyle23]

lol, here is a quickman gem

 

Gavin Floyd equals Tim redding.

 

[Kyyle23]

I just read that the Marlins did not offer Kiko Calero arbitration, he would be a great upgrade over Dotel(10.4 K/9 innings, 1.95 ERA).

[Kalapse]

I just read that the Marlins did not offer Kiko Calero arbitration, he would be a great upgrade over Dotel(10.4 K/9 innings, 1.95 ERA).

He's going to be in very high demand. Won't be cheap.

[bmags]

In defense of everyone in that thread, not making the playoffs in 2006 was very depressing, and the off-season that followed was borderline suicidal. 2 years removed from a World Series, we got a project pitcher and a AA pitcher, traded away the pitcher we thought was the future (McCarthy) for no sure thing to start (Danks), signed Erstad. Nothing we did that offseason was loading up to win the division again THAT YEAR. Now, the Floyd/Danks trades obviously worked out well, and that brutal year allowed us to get Beckham.

 

BUt with all of this, it's still pretty discouraging to think we are going to be hardpressed to win a crap division with a damn near 100 mill. payroll and the best rotation in baseball.

[simba43]

I don't think that's true about Dotel. He's on 4 out of 5 times and in those 4, he's really on. It's just that the 5th time is usually explosive. Most relievers are never as good as he is in those 4. You really have to look at relievers around the game. Relief pitchers stink, for the most part.

thats why there relief pitchers i mean they pitch a inning here and there and get outs and if they pitch in the right situations they do better some get lucky and pitch to bottom oeder guys here and there . And before you know it they have pitched 45innings with a era of 2.09 and people think there great . your right most relief pitchers stink i love all this specialty stuff to 6th inn guy 7th inn guy 8th inn or setup man haha setup ? set up what ? then the closer more fancy titles . and lets not forget the left handed specialist my god today's baseball is getting to the point of not watchable so many pitching changes pitch counts even for relief pitchers ? For me its all bullsh_t were paying 5 6 mil a year to middle relief pitchers to pitch 60 to 70 inns . What happen to this game ?

[DBAHO]

thats why there relief pitchers i mean they pitch a inning here and there and get outs and if they pitch in the right situations they do better some get lucky and pitch to bottom oeder guys here and there . And before you know it they have pitched 45innings with a era of 2.09 and people think there great . your right most relief pitchers stink i love all this specialty stuff to 6th inn guy 7th inn guy 8th inn or setup man haha setup ? set up what ? then the closer more fancy titles . and lets not forget the left handed specialist my god today's baseball is getting to the point of not watchable so many pitching changes pitch counts even for relief pitchers ? For me its all bullsh_t were paying 5 6 mil a year to middle relief pitchers to pitch 60 to 70 inns . What happen to this game ?

Supply and demand.

 

Having a good bullpen can be the difference b/w a team winning say 85 games to a team winning 90-95 games and making the playoffs.

 

We've seen in the past how a bad bullpen can affect this team, and it's no secret that the year we won the World Series we had a dominant bullpen with Cotts and Pollite.

 

So that's why those quality guys get paid what they get paid.

 

As for the decisions, no surprise really, but I agree with the consensus that it would be nice if the Sox could bring back Dotel on say a 2/7 or 2/8 deal or something like that. Relievers like him that can strike out a lot of hitters don't come around very often, even if he has flaws elsewhere.

[southsider2k5]

If you don't offer someone arbitration, I thought you couldn't sign them until something like May 1st... Is that wrong?

[ptatc]

But you did think the Floyd deal was terrible. I saw your posts.

 

I went back and forth with alot of posters over Floyd in a few of those threads. Friends of mine who worked with him daily insisted he could still be a good major league pitcher.

Edited December 2, 2009 by ptatc

[Ranger]

In defense of everyone in that thread, not making the playoffs in 2006 was very depressing, and the off-season that followed was borderline suicidal. 2 years removed from a World Series, we got a project pitcher and a AA pitcher, traded away the pitcher we thought was the future (McCarthy) for no sure thing to start (Danks), signed Erstad. Nothing we did that offseason was loading up to win the division again THAT YEAR. Now, the Floyd/Danks trades obviously worked out well, and that brutal year allowed us to get Beckham.

 

BUt with all of this, it's still pretty discouraging to think we are going to be hardpressed to win a crap division with a damn near 100 mill. payroll and the best rotation in baseball.

 

 

Eh. I'm not sure that excuses it. They won 90 games in 2006...it's not like they had a terrible year. Disappointing, but not terrible. Regardless of the situation of the team, the trade itself was blasted as being a horrible trade when people clearly didn't know anything about what was going on. They didn't know that Floyd struggled because Philly horribly mishandled him. They didn't know that Garcia's arm was about to fall off and that getting anything at all for him was a steal. They terribly overvalued him in that trade market and many people behaved as if they were absolutely positive the Sox were doing the wrong thing. And up until now, they've gotten a better pitcher in John Danks over McCarthy and, unless something changes, they will prove that they knew what they were doing in trading for him. The point is that sometimes we should concede that we don't know nearly half of what we think we know about player value and player potential, and we shouldn't be so confident in some of our opinions when we usually don't know the whole story about certain players. People were calling for the GM to be fired because of that trade alone. I'm sorry, but there is absolutely no defense for that.

 

And I don't agree with you at all that the Sox will be hard-pressed to win the Central next year. They will have an excellent chance, and may even be the favorite based on their rotation alone.

 

I went back and forth with alot of posters over Floyd in a few of those threads. Friends of mine who worked with him daily insisted he could still be a good major league pitcher.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Ranger

[SoxAce]

Well... at least we know at after all these years Chris Rongey does exist ey Chris?

[Flash Tizzle]

I'm loving this thread. I'm actually wondering where the person who calls himself "Flash Tizzle" is. His post that includes the following is gold:

 

"I knew Williams would f*** up any potential deal for a starting pitcher."

 

If I find any other good ones, I may have to post. Good stuff.

I'm still around, although now I save all knee-jerk reactions for Soxtalk's chatroom.

 

I was obviously very wrong about Williams and the trade. I have no problem admitting that. Hell, you could make a day out of finding trades and other issues concerning this team I've been wrong about.

 

I wouldn't say I've been one of Williams' biggest critics, as Iamshack suggested. However, I was definitely one of the most vocal critics when the discussion would turn to our once atrocious minor league system. My hope was Williams would deal Garcia for a collection of minor league players who could replenish our system. Basically, I expected him to trade-rape someone by taking advantage of an offseason where Gil Meche is receiving a 5 year deal, Dice-K 6 years, and Jeff Suppan 4 years. I know it wasn't reasonable to hold him to such standards, but I felt we needed some fortune to fall upon our system; because we sure as hell weren't drafting or developing anyone on our own. And really, look at the production from within from Aaron Rowand reaching the majors in 2001 until 2007. It was frustrating to follow. We couldn't even produce a 4th OF worth a damn. McCarthy and Fields were in a company all by themselves. But even then, their success was limited. I personally wouldn't consider Jenks a product of us if you were thinking about including him

 

Recently, I haven't had much to complain about. Acquiring Danks, Floyd and (especially) Quentin were all deals where we gave up little and in return received cheap, productive players. Even the system has turned around with Bell in, Wilder gone, and a philosophical shift in searching for more high impact players. Not just the "safe" selections we've had to watch fail in the past.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Flash Tizzle

[bmags]

Eh. I'm not sure that excuses it. They won 90 games in 2006...it's not like they had a terrible year. Disappointing, but not terrible. Regardless of the situation of the team, the trade itself was blasted as being a horrible trade when people clearly didn't know anything about what was going on. They didn't know that Floyd struggled because Philly horribly mishandled him. They didn't know that Garcia's arm was about to fall off and that getting anything at all for him was a steal. They terribly overvalued him in that trade market and many people behaved as if they were absolutely positive the Sox were doing the wrong thing. And up until now, they've gotten a better pitcher in John Danks over McCarthy and, unless something changes, they will prove that they knew what they were doing in trading for him. The point is that sometimes we should concede that we don't know nearly half of what we think we know about player value and player potential, and we shouldn't be so confident in some of our opinions when we usually don't know the whole story about certain players. People were calling for teh Gm to be fired because of that rade alone. I'm sorry, but there is absolutely no defense for that.

 

And I don't agree with you at all that the Sox will be hard-pressed to win the Central next year. They will have an excellent chance, and may even be the favorite based on their rotation alone.

 

Every team in the central has an excellent chance to win the central, it's just not good. The fact that we are going to try and do it without fixing serious flaws (BP, Power) means I won't hold my breath that we can overtake the absolute force of dominance that is the twins

 

But as for the Garcia trade, you really aren't giving anyone the benefit of the doubt in terms of context. For one, this is a message board and when breaking news happens, it is straight up knee-jerk, as we often don't know the amount of players and info until hours later, when you start to see consensus. That doesn't mean it makes people's opinions stupid at the time, but we're all aware they are pretty flawed in the beginning. But no one is just going to post "We should wait until we have all info!"...

 

And once again, no, 2006 wasn't a bad year, but the second half was a slow, brutal disappointment. As it ended we realized that a) that '05 rotation we were so excited to keep looked now old and decrepit. B) this was lining up to be a good sellers market for pitchers.

 

And in that off-season, nothing good in terms of improving '07 happened. Nothing. We had probably the worst OF in the history of baseball with Pods in left and Erstad in Center, Crede's back began to show again in the 2nd half, Uribe's 06 was unbearable. And both those broke in 07, and the lineups we had to watch I wouldn't wish on anyone. Andy Gonzalez at SS and Ozuna at 3rd. Jesus.

 

In short, we all knew we were going to be terrible in 07, and we were. And so when you are selling off the pieces of your championship team and all you are getting back is a failed prospect and a marginal prospect, and then trade off your major league ready talent for a good prospect, and nothing is really replenishing your farm in terms of knocking lance broadway out of your top 5 prospects, then you can see what fueled everyone to be really pissed off.

 

Williams has probably gathered himself more leeway now than he had in the 07 off-season because of his ability to execute replenishing the farm on the run in just 2 years and his few excellent trades.

 

But when he has off-seasons like 06 and 08, where we are coming off good teams and all they do is cry poor and don't do anything to win now, it's hard to keep long term perspective, because losing is awful as a baseball fan. It's too long of a season to suck the whole time.

[balfanman]

Eh. I'm not sure that excuses it. They won 90 games in 2006...it's not like they had a terrible year. Disappointing, but not terrible. Regardless of the situation of the team, the trade itself was blasted as being a horrible trade when people clearly didn't know anything about what was going on. They didn't know that Floyd struggled because Philly horribly mishandled him. They didn't know that Garcia's arm was about to fall off and that getting anything at all for him was a steal. They terribly overvalued him in that trade market and many people behaved as if they were absolutely positive the Sox were doing the wrong thing. And up until now, they've gotten a better pitcher in John Danks over McCarthy and, unless something changes, they will prove that they knew what they were doing in trading for him. The point is that sometimes we should concede that we don't know nearly half of what we think we know about player value and player potential, and we shouldn't be so confident in some of our opinions when we usually don't know the whole story about certain players. People were calling for teh Gm to be fired because of that rade alone. I'm sorry, but there is absolutely no defense for that.

 

I could not possibly agree with you more here Chris. One of the things that upsets me the most on message boards are the people who come across as the "I know everything and you are all wrong" type. We all have opinions and that is a great thing, I love hearing other peoples opinions as it helps to form mine on issues that I know very little about. I just wish that some posters would learn how to express themselves in ways that don't come across as a know it all. In my case, baseball is a hobby and I enjoy it, but I freely admit that I am far from an expert in the field. There are very few here who make their living in baseball and only have opinions, not facts. Personally, I would hold an opinion such as Rangers in higher regard than most because I know that he is closer to those actually involved in the game than others. I doubt that even those employed directly in the game would consider themselves experts as they are wrong sometimes as well. Every G. M. in the game has been wrong before in player evaluations, no ones perfect. That's my soapbox, sorry.

 

As far as Garcia in 2006. I seem to remember, even though I wasn't actively posting then I checked this site out most everyday, that most of us thought that there was something wrong with Freddy all season long. I personally thought that he had arm problems and I thought that we were very fortunate to recieve anything at all for him. I liked the trade at the time and thought that the Philly G. M. was extremely foolish for not giving Freddy a physical when most of the "baseball world" suspected arm problems. JMHO.

Edited December 2, 2009 by balfanman

[iamshack]

We can all look back and say that we knew Freddy had arm problems, but I didn't see too many posts in that thread saying anything about arm troubles. It appeared Freddy was losing his fastball that year, but I think most people thought it was more "dead arm" than anything. If you look at Freddy's whip that year, he posted something like a 1.28, which is very respectful for a starter. Apparently he was just allowing a lot of big hits at the wrong time, because his ERA was over 4.5, and that's with a very solid last month or so.

 

I think what helped Kenny was Freddy coming on strong in his last few starts and recapturing some of his value.

 

Getting Floyd and Gio wasn't exactly a huge haul, considering Gavin's performance to that time, but Kenny was very confident that they would be able to fix his mechanical issues, stating almost immediately that they had analyzed his delivery for a full day before making the trade and finding flaws in it that would allow us to turn him around.

 

But I seem to remember many thinking Gio was the bigger piece to that deal than Floyd.

 

Obviously, things turned out about as well as can be expected with Gavin.

[Kyyle23]

We can all look back and say that we knew Freddy had arm problems, but I didn't see too many posts in that thread saying anything about arm troubles. It appeared Freddy was losing his fastball that year, but I think most people thought it was more "dead arm" than anything. If you look at Freddy's whip that year, he posted something like a 1.28, which is very respectful for a starter. Apparently he was just allowing a lot of big hits at the wrong time, because his ERA was over 4.5, and that's with a very solid last month or so.

 

I think what helped Kenny was Freddy coming on strong in his last few starts and recapturing some of his value.

 

Getting Floyd and Gio wasn't exactly a huge haul, considering Gavin's performance to that time, but Kenny was very confident that they would be able to fix his mechanical issues, stating almost immediately that they had analyzed his delivery for a full day before making the trade and finding flaws in it that would allow us to turn him around.

 

But I seem to remember many thinking Gio was the bigger piece to that deal than Floyd.

 

Obviously, things turned out about as well as can be expected with Gavin.

 

 

Looking at that thread, I would say infinitely better than many people expected, lol

Edited December 2, 2009 by KyYlE23

[NorthSideSox72]

We can all look back and say that we knew Freddy had arm problems, but I didn't see too many posts in that thread saying anything about arm troubles. It appeared Freddy was losing his fastball that year, but I think most people thought it was more "dead arm" than anything. If you look at Freddy's whip that year, he posted something like a 1.28, which is very respectful for a starter. Apparently he was just allowing a lot of big hits at the wrong time, because his ERA was over 4.5, and that's with a very solid last month or so.

 

I think what helped Kenny was Freddy coming on strong in his last few starts and recapturing some of his value.

 

Getting Floyd and Gio wasn't exactly a huge haul, considering Gavin's performance to that time, but Kenny was very confident that they would be able to fix his mechanical issues, stating almost immediately that they had analyzed his delivery for a full day before making the trade and finding flaws in it that would allow us to turn him around.

 

But I seem to remember many thinking Gio was the bigger piece to that deal than Floyd.

 

Obviously, things turned out about as well as can be expected with Gavin.

I'm often very wrong in my predictions, so I'll take this opportunity to point out that not only did I like the trade, but I even specifically referred to Garcia's velocity loss.

 

[southsider2k5]

If you don't offer someone arbitration, I thought you couldn't sign them until something like May 1st... Is that wrong?

 

Does anyone know if this is still true or not?

[Princess Dye]

The Todd Ritchie trade still had us all scarred. At least in what we got back. I disliked this trade but liked Danks/McCarthy.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Princess Dye

[iamshack]

Does anyone know if this is still true or not?

Free Agency Arbitration

Free Agency arbitration differs from reserve clause salary arbitration in that the player may ultimately choose which team controls his rights. When a player reaches free agency, there is a cutoff date by which his team can choose whether or not to offer him arbitration. If such an offer is made, it extends the exclusive negotiating window between the player and the team that held his rights. If no such offer is made, or if the player declines an offer of arbitration, the player cannot re-sign with that team until May 31 of the following season. Once a player accepts arbitration, his rights are assigned to that team for the next full season and a hearing is scheduled as part of the arbitration process (see below). As with reserve clause salary arbitration, a player and the offering team can avoid arbitration by agreeing to contract terms prior to the hearing. Otherwise the arbitration process moves forward.

 

 

[Ranger]

Well... at least we know at after all these years Chris Rongey does exist ey Chris?

 

As far as I know...

 

 

Every team in the central has an excellent chance to win the central, it's just not good. The fact that we are going to try and do it without fixing serious flaws (BP, Power) means I won't hold my breath that we can overtake the absolute force of dominance that is the twins

 

But as for the Garcia trade, you really aren't giving anyone the benefit of the doubt in terms of context. For one, this is a message board and when breaking news happens, it is straight up knee-jerk, as we often don't know the amount of players and info until hours later, when you start to see consensus. That doesn't mean it makes people's opinions stupid at the time, but we're all aware they are pretty flawed in the beginning. But no one is just going to post "We should wait until we have all info!"...

 

First, I wouldn't say the Royals and Indians have an "excellent" chance to win the division next year. The Sox have a better chance than just about any team in the division. You're understating the Sox ability within the Central.

 

Second, what benefit of the doubt does anyone deserve? I completely understand why people were confused about that trade at the time, so then why didn't they just say, "I'm not sure about this. I wonder what they're thinking. I'll guess we'll see how it plays out." Instead of saying, "Kenny Williams doesn't know what he's doing! He should be fired on the spot! This is the dumbest trade I've ever seen!"

 

I mean, what's the purpose of losing your proverbial breath in anger over a trade you don't understand? If you admit you don't know everything about the details of the trade and don't know the full story about the players involved, how can anyone be so damn positive that it is a "horrible trade?" What's wrong with being level-headed and asking, "what do they know that I don't?"

 

And if they do deserve the benefit of the doubt, doesn't the GM deserve the same? Afterall, it's not like he has this history of awful trades. Sure, he has some questionable moves, but he hits more than he misses.

 

We can all look back and say that we knew Freddy had arm problems, but I didn't see too many posts in that thread saying anything about arm troubles. It appeared Freddy was losing his fastball that year, but I think most people thought it was more "dead arm" than anything.

 

I don't think the general public was aware of it, but many teams were quietly very concerned about him at the time.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Ranger

[iamshack]

As far as I know...

 

 

 

 

First, I wouldn't say the Royals and Indians have an "excellent" chance to win the division next year. The Sox have a better chance than just about any team in the division. You're understating the Sox ability within the Central.

 

Second, what benefit of the doubt does anyone deserve? I completely understand why people were confused about that trade at the time, so then why didn't they just say, "I'm not sure about this. I wonder what they're thinking. I'll guess we'll see how it plays out." Instead of saying, "Kenny Williams doesn't know what he's doing! He should be fired on the spot! This is the dumbest trade I've ever seen!"

 

I mean, what's the purpose of losing your proverbial breath in anger over a trade you don't understand? If you admit you don't know everything about the details of the trade and don't know the full story about the players involved, how can anyone be so damn positive that it is a "horrible trade?" What's wrong with being level-headed and asking, "what do they know that I don't?"

 

And if they do deserve the benefit of the doubt, doesn't the GM deserve the same? Afterall, it's not like he has this history of awful trades. Sure, he has some questionable moves, but he hits more than he misses.

 

 

 

I don't think the general public was aware of it, but many teams were quietly very concerned about him at the time.

 

Well, you should be happy people tend to have extreme, knee-jerk reactions, Mr. Rongey. This helps pay your paycheck, doesn't it? Can you imagine the state of sports radio if everyone sat back and thought, "hmm, interesting, what do they know that I don't?"

 

As for the thing with Freddy's arm issues, I agree, I am sure there were teams around baseball that were concerned about his health. I was just speaking for this forum.

[Kyyle23]

The Todd Ritchie trade still had us all scarred. At least in what we got back. I disliked this trade but liked Danks/McCarthy.

 

 

Never even enters my mind. Ever. It has nothing to do with the present